Quote from: Vincero on July 05, 2023, 17:20:15Well, China is a bit of a different market - they have a lot of home grown makers who sell cheap and don't sell abroad and would probably struggle to get their cars certified in some markets. The other totally international brands (e.g. Toyota, Ford, etc.) are at a disadvantage in that scenario, especially with import taxes.

Only now are we seeing some of them branch out with their EVs (even though Great Wall have tried in the EU with ICE models before, and BYD part own other established makers).

Yes the writing is on the wall for mainstream ICE usage, but a long way to go in some areas.
At this point the only thing that will kill off ICE cars is legislation and / or someone managing to squeeze 2-3 times the energy density into battery storage for a negligible cost increase.
This is why, despite its complexity, Hydrogen fuel cells are always looked at - the energy density payback.

Still plenty of time for most of these companies to get their s**t together, but dealing with the 'race to the bottom' by some companies (like some of the China brands) will be their biggest issue.
Ironically VW have killed the eUP but in reality need to figure out how to make a successful replacement.

I see the legislation coming but not the battery developments needed to match the government timeframes.

Once that energy density issue is resolved we might actually even see commercial battery powered aircraft.

Those are just stereotypes from 10 years ago.

"they have a lot of home grown makers who sell cheap and don't sell abroad and would probably struggle to get their cars certified in some markets."
Are you from the past? (or from the States?) Chinese cars are selling quite well in Europe, and getting nice results on EuroNCAP.
Also Chinese brands are actually starting to build car factories in Europe, which clearly shows their intentions to stay and grow further.

Hidrogen is only being pushed by petro-lobbies, as it's their only way of maintenaning relevance in a future without combustion engines on road transportation. Hidrogen is extremely inefficient and expensive, and will never be a good alternative to electric cars.
Norway is paving the way. Other countries are following little by little.

Quote from: Vincero on July 02, 2023, 12:39:42Yeah sure they may save a few dollars / unit, but seeing as Tesla is already starting to loose out to much stronger competition, they should really be fighting for any market they can - they are still a small manufacturer.

I don't think it is penny pinching, I think it has to do with the fact that Musk's idea of bringing costs down is automation which becomes easier with EVs than ICE cars. The problem is left hand drive vehicles will need more work on calibrating the machines which is simply not worth doing. Maybe once they build that India factory they have been contemplating, left hand drive may return

Quote from: Vincero on July 05, 2023, 17:20:15This is why, despite its complexity, Hydrogen fuel cells are always looked at - the energy density payback.

No, they mostly have been used as a distraction to delay EVs. Do understand weight is 1 equation, volume is the other. And all the equipment you need for hydrogen cars is heavy, so much so that hydrogen cars tend to be heavier than EVs

QuoteOnce that energy density issue is resolved we might actually even see commercial battery powered aircraft.

The biggest hurdle here isn't energy density, it is the FAA. They take decades to approve anything. electric is already feasible for many short distance flights

Quote from: heffeque on July 06, 2023, 00:35:36Those are just stereotypes from 10 years ago.

I don't follow EVs very closely (because I agree with this:

QuoteAt this point the only thing that will kill off ICE cars is legislation and / or someone managing to squeeze 2-3 times the energy density into battery storage for a negligible cost increase

) but IIRC "Li" is one of the top-selling EV brands in China, only behind BYD and Tesla(while MG is nowhere in sight, funny thing). Now Li's entire business model is built upon peddling primitive extended-range vehicles running a dated engine design with a 9L/100km comprehensive fuel efficiency as true EVs, so they get the "green plate"(for so-called "new energy vehicles") that aren't as limited in supply as regular "blue plates"(for ICE vehicles) in major Chinese cities, because policy🙂. So at least in Li's case, no way in hell are they gonna sell in the US or EU🙂