Quote from: usedtobegood on January 19, 2023, 01:44:29Ich bin auch Besitzer eines T14s Gen 3 AMD (Ryzen Pro 7 6850U/32GB/400 Nits) und kann den Test hier bezüglich des Lüfters überhaupt nicht nachvollziehen. Selbst bei den einfachsten Tasks geht der Lüfter an und ist zu hören. Und der Lüfter ist bei der leisesten Stufe zu hören - nicht laut, aber wahrnehmbar. Es ist für mich vollkommen unerklärlich wie diese gute Bewertung zustande kommt. Nur weil die anderen Notebooks noch schlechter sind? Er steht im Vergleich zum MacBook Air M1, der wirklich lautlos und ohne Lüfter ist und hier versagt er komplett was den Lüfter angeht und der M1 ist mindestens genauso schnell.

Einzige Aushilfe ist hier eine Version von TPFanControl , mit der ich das hier geschriebene Verhalten mehr oder weniger erreiche, allerdings wird die CPU dementsprechend warm. Trotzdem ist er im Vergleich zum MacBook Air M1 immer noch schlecht.

Ich komme auch von einem T470s und hier war die Lüftersteuerung wesentlich besser. Oder AMD hat wieder vergessen die Thermal Paste drauf zu machen, da gibt es ja momentan bei GPUs auch Qualtätsprobleme.

Ich habe jetzt bezüglich Windows 11/10 keine wahrnehmbaren Unterschiede merken können.

Akkubetrieb: Im Akkubetrieb auf "blanciert" unter Windows 11 spinnt das Touchpad komplett, wenn die CPU rendert. Hier gibt es ein Treiberproblem. Die Maus stockt und bleibt stehen oder Zwei-Fingerscroll unterbricht. Unter Windows 10 habe ich es noch nicht ausprobiert.

Touchpad: Ich hatte am Anfang noch ein Klappern auf dem Touchpad bei den kleinsten Berührungen und "Soft Clicks" hats geklappert. Naja, durch einen relativ kräfigten Schlag hat "sich das behoben" ;)

@Quantumblob: Bezüglich Docking Stations, habe ich gelesen, dass die "Universal Docking Stations" DisplayLink benutzen. Bei DisplayLinks rendert die CPU scheinbar die externen Monitore weshalb das Notebook dann mehr rechnen muss und wärmer wird. Welche Docking Station hast du?

Im Großen und Ganzen war es bisher nicht sein Geld Wert. Bringt einfach nicht den Mehrwert zum T470s, der immer noch gute Dinge verrichtet. Ich habe noch relativ günstig eins bekommen als Black Friday Deal für ca. 1500 € (ohne Windows, mit 256 GB SSD, die ich gegen eine WD Black SN850x 1TB gewechselt hab, kein Smartcard-Reader, dafür 32 GB, 400 Nits, Ryzen 7 Pro). Zudem muss ich eine neue Docking-Station kaufen. Hier ist aber auch das Problem, dass billige DisplayLink Docking-Station vermarktet werden, die dann die CPU noch mehr belasten.

Thanks for your honest feedback. This once again proves that one should be extremely skeptical about the numbers and the description of the testers' feelings. And at some points, some commercial overtones become obvious...

By the way, my old Thinkpad (which was simply impossible to use without TPFanControl) burned out, most likely because of its use for 12 years. I set the threshold for turning on the coolers at increased speeds at 62C, because before this threshold it was impossible to endure their noise, and up to 62C it almost never had time to heat up in surfing. Then I almost stopped using it in this mode to the fullest (on YouTube it just burned out), but the software that I entrusted to it - the load requirements in the background also gradually grew and as a result it could not withstand the temperature drops, the power harness burned out. I was very upset, because. initially assumed that it was much more reliable and durable than the MSI gaming laptop, which is even older than it. But he is still alive, although he is already 15 years old.

Thus, I did not see any increased reliability from the Thinkpad series (and real comfort of use with minimal noise in operation without such tricks as described above) and I will never buy it again, because. the costs for this series are simply meaningless, given the fall in the overall reliability of these series and the limitations in upgrading and worse hardware than in "gaming" laptops, literally at times.

Für mich komplett unverständlich, wie es sein kann, dass gelöteter RAM nicht zu einer Abwertung führt.
Noch dazu gibt es hier ein Limit von 32 GB (reicht nicht für einige professionelle Anwendungen).

Ich werde jedenfalls keinen Rechner mit aufgelötetem RAM kaufen. Und ich denke, dass ich da keineswegs der Einzige bin.

Ich habe ein Thinkpad T16 mit AMD Ryzen 7 Pro 6850U und 16GB RAM, ich hatte auch erst überlegt mir das T14s mit AMD Prozessor zu kaufen, wollte aber doch lieber mehr Bildschirmfläche und das T16 war einfach mehrere hundert Euro günstiger und den einzigen Nachteil, den ich wirklich ausmachen konnte, war dass das T16 kein USB 4 unterstützt.

Zum Lüftergeräusch:

Bei alltäglichen Aufgaben, Surfen im Internet, Zoom-Meetings, Office-Programme, Musik oder Streaming nebenbei etc. habe ich den Lüfter noch nie anspringen gehört, also wirklich überhaupt nicht. Nur wenn der Laptop lädt, springt der Lüfter manchmal kurz an.

Beim Gaming mit Einstellung auf beste Leistung hört man den Lüfter, aber auch da nicht übermäßig laut, sondern ein tiefes, fast schon angenehmes Rauschen ohne nervige hochfrequente Geräusche.
Ich vermute das T16 ist hinsichtlich der Kühlung einfach noch besser aufgestellt als das T14 oder T14s

Quote from: usedtobegood on January 19, 2023, 01:44:29@Quantumblob: Bezüglich Docking Stations, habe ich gelesen, dass die "Universal Docking Stations" DisplayLink benutzen. Bei DisplayLinks rendert die CPU scheinbar die externen Monitore weshalb das Notebook dann mehr rechnen muss und wärmer wird. Welche Docking Station hast du?

Mein Dock ist ein ThinkPad Universal Thunderbolt 4 (40B00135EU). Unter Windows hat soweit alles Gewünschte funktioniert (Powerbutton, Firmwareupdate, LAN, Video, Audio, USB), wobei offenbar die Docking Stationen von Lenovo leider kein Freesync können. Das Display war kurz ein WQHD mit 165 Hz (über den HDMI-Port des Notebooks geht Freesync). Ich konnte allerdings nicht testen, ob es über die vollen 40Gbps läuft oder doch nur ein USB3-Modus ist (10 Gbps?), da mir die Geräte dazu fehlen. Dan S. Charlton hat in seinem Blog eine ausführliche Beschreibung dazu (und zu anderen Docks) -> wohl kein Displaylink aber DP 1.4->HDMI 2.1 über USB-C, was unter Linux dann bisher mit den 6000er Ryzens Probleme macht: Unter Ubuntu (Standardkernel von 22.10) hat alles bis auf Video (weder DP noch HDMI) funktioniert.

zu teuer für den fehlenden ethernet port.

Quote from: Quantumblob on January 19, 2023, 23:06:51wohl kein Displaylink aber DP 1.4->HDMI 2.1 über USB-C, was unter Linux dann bisher mit den 6000er Ryzens Probleme macht: Unter Ubuntu (Standardkernel von 22.10) hat alles bis auf Video (weder DP noch HDMI) funktioniert.

You write technical nonsense.

The bandwidth of HDMI 2.1 is 42Gbits, DP1.3-1.4b has only 25.92Gbps. They are completely incompatible. The maximum that DP1.4-> HDMI2.0b converter chips can do.

Quote from: NikoB on January 23, 2023, 13:33:45

Quote from: Quantumblob on January 19, 2023, 23:06:51wohl kein Displaylink aber DP 1.4->HDMI 2.1 über USB-C, was unter Linux dann bisher mit den 6000er Ryzens Probleme macht: Unter Ubuntu (Standardkernel von 22.10) hat alles bis auf Video (weder DP noch HDMI) funktioniert.

You write technical nonsense.

The bandwidth of HDMI 2.1 is 42Gbits, DP1.3-1.4b has only 25.92Gbps. They are completely incompatible. The maximum that DP1.4-> HDMI2.0b converter chips can do.

I just (wrongly?) quoted that blog: Synaptics VMM6212 DP/HBR3 splitter (HDMI 2.1 and DP 1.4 support). The Synaptic webpage more or less states HDMI 2.1 for most of their Video Interface ICs (VMM6*** and higher, 2 and 4-lanes of video over USB-C from host). I did not check/verify any of that detail.

Hallo,

Habt ihr auch vor, den größeren 16 Zoll Bruder mit AMD zu testen? T14 ist mir zu klein.

Libor

Auf den Bericht vom T14s G3 AMD habe ich lange gewartet und gleich am Tag der Veröffentlichung gelesen.
Vielen Dank an die Redaktion für den tollen Testbericht!
Aus meiner Sicht macht ihr mit Abstand die besten Notebook-Tests und geistreiche Reviews. Da darf man auch mal Danke sagen.

Quote from: NikoB on January 17, 2023, 20:04:01Another haha. An excellent quiet and powerful enough system unit to work with an external keyboard and monitor. And play on eGPU via USB40.

But everyone spoils the miserable 16GB. For such a price, 64GB should definitely stand here. Although, as far as I know, memory larger than 32GB is not supported in LPDDR in quad channels mode (4x32 bits), at least it was before, AMD has little information about this in the datasheet. But at least not put 32GB in a laptop for 1800 euros?! Lenovo got greedy in 2022...

And another interesting question - why are 1500: 1 much more common on 14" panels than on 15-17.3"?

In general, Lenovo again got lost among 3 pines...

Dear NikoB,

Lenovo has made a profit of 3% (three per cent) - in total, over all products.
With only 3% profit, how in the world you expect them to provide for you a 62GB Ram setting, instead of 16GB, without going bankrupt?

Since your post sounds as if you have little or no knowledge about economics, let me support:
Price differentiation exists everywhere - for nicer products, the producers ask for higher prices.
Usually, you sell less of nice products, but with higher margins. They drive innovation, e.g. with the Mercedes S-Class inventing Airbags, ABS and much more. Since innovating is expensive, you need higher margins on those products. These innovations then trickle down in all series and benefit all.

If you are looking for affordable 64GB, look for last generations or bulkier models - but not the latest, fastest, slimmest. The latest and greatest was never cheap.

Quote from: Kabelkanal on February 09, 2023, 07:30:13With only 3% profit, how in the world you expect them to provide for you a 62GB Ram setting, instead of 16GB, without going bankrupt?

Let us assume a notebook has the space for 64GB. Each such notebook should support 64GB so the basic price of the notebook, even if as barebone without RAM, must include the development costs for enabling 64GB. If Lenovo sells a notebook with 64GB or 16GB for the price difference of such RAM modules on the free endconsumer market, it still earns money from the RAM upgrade because it can purchase RAM at (much) lower prices than endconsumers can.

If, however, Lenovo (or any manufacturer possibly so far other than Apple) tries to rip-off for 64GB upgrades, it might go bankrupt because too many people do not buy from it at all.

Quote from: Kabelkanal on February 09, 2023, 07:30:13Lenovo has made a profit of 3% (three per cent) - in total, over all products.
With only 3% profit, how in the world you expect them to provide for you a 62GB Ram setting, instead of 16GB, without going bankrupt?

Do not tell my slippers, I know the wholesale prices for laptops and how much they are cheaper than in retail.

Lenovo greedily sells even banal +8GB of memory in its laptops with 1 (one) year warranty with a markup of 200-300% relative to the retail price of the same module with at least 5 (five) years of warranty, and more often even 10+. It behaves approximately the same greedily (like other manufacturers, although of course Apple's greed cannot be surpassed by anyone in this regard) with SSDs and other components.

Your moaning could have had an effect on the naive public 35 years ago, when there was no Internet. But now, with just a little effort, I can scan all the wholesale and retail prices in the world in a couple of hours, and I can accurately get a picture of how greedy each manufacturer is with their laptop model, simply by adding together the retail and wholesale prices for the components that make it up. And I always get that the RAM and SSD are overpriced there at times. Like everything else. The minimum markup from the factory is at least 30%, not 3%. And this is the minimum. A greedy retail trade winds no less. Like the greedy criminal authorities, who, having taken a significant part of your income from you with taxes, when selling goods to you, they also cynically charge VAT (which in fact is a regular sales tax on the final buyer, for example, in Germany 19%, i.e. power rips off the population like sticky), as the second level, in a huge amount comparable to payroll taxes. Those. they have you in 3 stages - a manufacturer, a chain of speculators-sellers and the power of your country (this is thieves so thieves).

So I don't need to tell me about poor producers of goods, especially large multinational corporations, sellers and corrupt authorities with their extortions at times, which, de, they, poor things, cannot make ends meet with a constantly deficit budget with such huge extortions from the population of all countries. In the age of the Internet and the availability of any information in a matter of moments, these moans look ridiculous.

I have lived long enough and know too much about this world... =)

Quote from: NikoB on February 09, 2023, 13:03:12But now, with just a little effort, I can scan all the wholesale and retail prices in the world in a couple of hours, and I can accurately get a picture of how greedy each manufacturer is with their laptop model, simply by adding together the retail and wholesale prices for the components that make it up.

There is a very big flaw in your logic: Many laptops do not sell for their retail pricing. Especially, since this comment thread is about a business laptop, when we are talking about laptops targeting the enterprise: Large customers that order thousands of systems get big discounts.

Of course, just adding up wholesale component pricing is also incomplete, because it does not include costs for manufacturing (labor, tooling), development, shipping, support.

If laptops had a 30 % profit margin like you claim, companies like IBM never would have left this market. 3 to 5 % is more accurate. Laptops are a commoditized market, low profit, race to the bottom in terms of pricing. Its been like that since the late 90s, when Chinese manufacturers entered the market, who started to produce cheap laptops, undercutting the established competition, making laptops affordable enough for normal consumers but destroying the profitability of the market.

Quote from: NikoB on February 09, 2023, 13:03:12I have lived long enough and know too much about this world... =)

Wisdom doesn't automatically come with age.
It comes with reflected thinking, not ignorance. Age can bring wisdom when reflections is multiplied by time. But when you expect unrealistic things, because one is ignorant, then it is very likely that you become bitter and not wise.

Back to Tech:
There are things I don't like about current ThinkPads, of course.
But I appreciate that Lenovo is keep pushing new innovations, in case you also followed the CES.

They are currently hiring 12,000 additional R&D Professionals and invested 2 billion USD into R&D in 2022. 
That is why their margin is 3%.
And sorry when one doesn't understand, that innovation must be funded by selling products.
Their margin-strong and mass products fund innovations like the x1 fold g2 16.
I react by purchasing usually the previous Generation devices. And I am happy.

I second Benjamin's points.