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Topic Summary

Posted by: Mao
« on: March 29, 2021, 14:48:45 »

Lol, much confusion about this.

Harmony OS can of course use the Linux kernel in their operating system, and still not use the android system. There are

The GNU operating system, what is commonly just called Linux, also have different kernels, were Linux is the the most common. Their native kernel Hurd is also a microkernel, while Linux is monolithic.

GNU-Linux, like Ubuntu or Manjaro, use the Linux kernel but is not Android.
Posted by: Jerry Spring
« on: March 10, 2021, 14:13:50 »

A better article in xatakandroid . com (keywords: harmonyos plan b Huawei Android) than the one of Ars tecnica.
Chrome translates spanish perfectly.
Posted by: Jerry Spring
« on: March 09, 2021, 20:45:33 »

I want an opinion from a Linux developer on this matter. I'm tired of Huawei fanboys and haters endlessly arguing over a topic neither of them have any clue what they are talking about and echo chambering their respective opinions without taking in knowledges from neutral outsiders. So someone, who has a real experience with developing an OS, please tell me, how does Harmony exactly work? Is it different from Android, and if so, how different are they? Is Ars Technica's report valid or is it inaccurate in some ways? How correct is Huawei's claim? Thanks in advance.

All right, I might be the person you're looking for. The biggest problem lying here is that Huawei gave us such vague descriptions about this OS that we ended up thinking what they are planning to provide their customers in the future is what they can provide them now, causing misconceptions and a lot of criticisms. In my opinion they definitely deserve it because they really did poorly document it and avoid any kind of detailed explanations just to keep up the hype.

Before further reading, take a look at this slide they used during the presentation.

o.aolcdn.com/images/dimse/5845cadfecd996e0372f/9d527c680ccfb7738c722a5a06702b52e768a629/cmVzaXplPTIwMDAlMkMyMDAwJTJDc2hyaW5rJmltYWdlX3VyaT1odHRwcyUzQSUyRiUyRnMueWltZy5jb20lMkZvcyUyRmNyZWF0ci11cGxvYWRlZC1pbWFnZXMlMkYyMDE5LTA4JTJGNmE2OWM2ZjAtYmE4My0xMWU5LWIxZmYtZjEwYTg1YjBlZDM2JmNsaWVudD1hMWFjYWMzZTFiMzI5MDkxN2Q5MiZzaWduYXR1cmU9OTZlZTliOWI1ZjJjYjhkZjkxMmU4YzM3YzJlNzA4Zjk3OTc1ZmYzMg==

So what is Harmony OS? It's a microkernel based distributed OS... except it's not, depending on how you implement it, at least for now. Surprised, right?
Harmony OS is capable of running on different kernels, and Huawei's marketing slide indeed shows Linux kernel, LiteOS kernel and HarmonyOS kernel placed alongside each other at the bottom left of the diagram. But as one person already mentioned below, Linux uses a monolithic kernel, hence if you use Linux kernel then the OS can no longer be called microkernel-based. What is happening here?

The answer is simple. HarmonyOS is only microkernel based when you choose to use HarmonyOS kernel, which is not Linux based.
Right under the system service layer, they use the abstraction layer to provide the service layer kernel capabilities, while shielding a difference in kernel implementation. This ensures that the upper layer of the OS will not be affected by whether the kernel is monolithic (Linux, LiteOS) or micro (HarmonyOS), but at the same time it indicates they made the "box" in the way that *Linux/LiteOS kernel* and *HarmonyOS microkernel + basic service layer that runs on top of it* would behave in a very similar way, effectively negating the advantage of microkernel architecture. The reason why they are forced to do this might be to attract people - not all parties interested in trying it out have a capability to develop the entirely different system optimised for the brand new kernel, so most probably Huawei included an option for them to use conventional Linux kernel that can run their old system without changing up its code significantly, just in a different container, then make a slow transition to HarmonyOS kernel whenever they feel ready for it.

The right hand side of the diagram shows Huawei's future visions on their new OS. There's no Linux nor LiteOS kernels at the bottom this time around, only HarmonyOS microkernel sitting there alone. Above it there are separate components that says "File system", "Power management", "RAM management", "Device driver". This is what Huawei wants Harmony to become - no Linux kernel, no KAL, just their own microkernel being the base of the OS and everything above being freely configurable by the system developers at their own wills. But they are clearly not there yet at this point of time.

Now let's return to the Ars Technica article. Is HarmonyOS Android? Well, no, obviously. But is Huawei's own specific implementation of HarmonyOS for mobile phones significantly different from AndroidOS? Actually we don't know because there is no way for you to tell from that article that the HarmonyOS beta emulator they used runs on Android kernel or HarmonyOS kernel. If the former is the case then the answer would be no because it's essentially Android but in a differently shaped box with a different compiler and a runtime library, otherwise it would be yes. If Anbox or WSL exist, then of course there's a possibility that Android subsystem could run on HarmonyOS as well.

Finally remember, nothing is factually proved, including Huawei's own claims, until Huawei seeds the stable version of the HarmonyOS to their existing phones and devs take it apart on their real devices. All we can do, for now, is to wait until that happens. Probably xda will find out something if there is anything interesting, but we never know if it would be a good news or a bad one.

Very good analysis !
It's really interesting to read someone that really understand it.
Posted by: Kyubey
« on: March 09, 2021, 12:34:29 »

I want an opinion from a Linux developer on this matter. I'm tired of Huawei fanboys and haters endlessly arguing over a topic neither of them have any clue what they are talking about and echo chambering their respective opinions without taking in knowledges from neutral outsiders. So someone, who has a real experience with developing an OS, please tell me, how does Harmony exactly work? Is it different from Android, and if so, how different are they? Is Ars Technica's report valid or is it inaccurate in some ways? How correct is Huawei's claim? Thanks in advance.

All right, I might be the person you're looking for. The biggest problem lying here is that Huawei gave us such vague descriptions about this OS that we ended up thinking what they are planning to provide their customers in the future is what they can provide them now, causing misconceptions and a lot of criticisms. In my opinion they definitely deserve it because they really did poorly document it and avoid any kind of detailed explanations just to keep up the hype.

Before further reading, take a look at this slide they used during the presentation.

o.aolcdn.com/images/dimse/5845cadfecd996e0372f/9d527c680ccfb7738c722a5a06702b52e768a629/cmVzaXplPTIwMDAlMkMyMDAwJTJDc2hyaW5rJmltYWdlX3VyaT1odHRwcyUzQSUyRiUyRnMueWltZy5jb20lMkZvcyUyRmNyZWF0ci11cGxvYWRlZC1pbWFnZXMlMkYyMDE5LTA4JTJGNmE2OWM2ZjAtYmE4My0xMWU5LWIxZmYtZjEwYTg1YjBlZDM2JmNsaWVudD1hMWFjYWMzZTFiMzI5MDkxN2Q5MiZzaWduYXR1cmU9OTZlZTliOWI1ZjJjYjhkZjkxMmU4YzM3YzJlNzA4Zjk3OTc1ZmYzMg==

So what is Harmony OS? It's a microkernel based distributed OS... except it's not, depending on how you implement it, at least for now. Surprised, right?
Harmony OS is capable of running on different kernels, and Huawei's marketing slide indeed shows Linux kernel, LiteOS kernel and HarmonyOS kernel placed alongside each other at the bottom left of the diagram. But as one person already mentioned below, Linux uses a monolithic kernel, hence if you use Linux kernel then the OS can no longer be called microkernel-based. What is happening here?

The answer is simple. HarmonyOS is only microkernel based when you choose to use HarmonyOS kernel, which is not Linux based.
Right under the system service layer, they use the abstraction layer to provide the service layer kernel capabilities, while shielding a difference in kernel implementation. This ensures that the upper layer of the OS will not be affected by whether the kernel is monolithic (Linux, LiteOS) or micro (HarmonyOS), but at the same time it indicates they made the "box" in the way that *Linux/LiteOS kernel* and *HarmonyOS microkernel + basic service layer that runs on top of it* would behave in a very similar way, effectively negating the advantage of microkernel architecture. The reason why they are forced to do this might be to attract people - not all parties interested in trying it out have a capability to develop the entirely different system optimised for the brand new kernel, so most probably Huawei included an option for them to use conventional Linux kernel that can run their old system without changing up its code significantly, just in a different container, then make a slow transition to HarmonyOS kernel whenever they feel ready for it.

The right hand side of the diagram shows Huawei's future visions on their new OS. There's no Linux nor LiteOS kernels at the bottom this time around, only HarmonyOS microkernel sitting there alone. Above it there are separate components that says "File system", "Power management", "RAM management", "Device driver". This is what Huawei wants Harmony to become - no Linux kernel, no KAL, just their own microkernel being the base of the OS and everything above being freely configurable by the system developers at their own wills. But they are clearly not there yet at this point of time.

Now let's return to the Ars Technica article. Is HarmonyOS Android? Well, no, obviously. But is Huawei's own specific implementation of HarmonyOS for mobile phones significantly different from AndroidOS? Actually we don't know because there is no way for you to tell from that article that the HarmonyOS beta emulator they used runs on Android kernel or HarmonyOS kernel. If the former is the case then the answer would be no because it's essentially Android but in a differently shaped box with a different compiler and a runtime library, otherwise it would be yes. If Anbox or WSL exist, then of course there's a possibility that Android subsystem could run on HarmonyOS as well.

Finally remember, nothing is factually proved, including Huawei's own claims, until Huawei seeds the stable version of the HarmonyOS to their existing phones and devs take it apart on their real devices. All we can do, for now, is to wait until that happens. Probably xda will find out something if there is anything interesting, but we never know if it would be a good news or a bad one.
Posted by: Jerry Spring
« on: March 08, 2021, 16:27:43 »

The difference between kernel and micro kernel is that with a kernel based OS the kernel should manage everything is possible even if never used. The kernel can take a lot of size so it can be a problem on some devices like watches.
When your OS use micro kernels you are using only the micro kernels you need in your device. For example you will choose if your device needs to manage screens, graphics, mouse, printers, networks... Of course it will be lightweight, faster and use far less energy.
I would really what is inside Harmony OS beta 3 and I think the answer is in the last  beta version of DevEco studio. Unfortunately Ars tecnica spent less time on it than on it's ID story ;) Their main comment was that a lot came from Android developers kit but what about the other tools??
Posted by: Jerry Spring
« on: March 08, 2021, 15:58:15 »

So Ubuntu OS, Red Hat OS ... are not OS because they all are using linux as kernel. OSX used Unix so it's not an OS. Android is not an OS because it's based on linux...
I am very surprised by some developers experts and theirs assertions...
I really would like to know how it's possible to check if there is a micro kernel in the actual beta of Harmony OS ?
In the article I couldn't find any facts that show that there is no micro kernel. The article only shows that this beta behave exactly like AOSP that is actually used in Mate 30 and 40 or the P40.
Posted by: zone99
« on: March 08, 2021, 00:31:42 »

Being an actual developer and actually understanding what is going on I will enlighten everyone here how this s*** works:

First all to the Huawei nerds to tone down the patriotism.

1. AOSP (android open source project)  is open source which means anybody can use the source code as long as they don't violate the open source licence agreement
--> Google is 90% responsible for the design, development and documentation of Android. The other 10% comes from the open handset alliance which is composed of Samsung, Hauwei, oppo, etc...
--->A little break to address some stupid statements i have read:
1 .One idiot here said Linux was microkernel it is not, its a monolithic architecture.
2. Another idiot here said Microsoft emulates android apps they do not, the windows phone that came out runs android.

TO CLEAR THIS s*** UP:
Huawei marketing is full of bullshit, Harmony OS is android without google added on services ( ie: google play store). The claim Huawei was trying to make was that they designed a new kernel that was "faster" and used a new microkernel design.
--> Since most people don't understand how operating systems work here is an analogy:
Let's say a human is composed of two parts one is the soul and the other is the body.  A human requires both to function. The soul provides the personality and drives the actions of the body.

In the computer world the computer soul would the kernel and the body would be the actual thing we call android (what most people refer to as android is the UI part of it).

In android the kernel is the linux kernel which was created in 1990s and is the largest open source project to date. The kernel is responsible for interacting with the low level hardware (ie: kinda like how ur brain controls your hands and legs ). Every time you press a button in android you are interacting with the linux kernel as it passes commands down to the physical hardware. The linux kernel also limits and automates processes that android needs to function (kinda like how your brain automatically pumps your heart so you don't die).

Huawei marketing was implying that they created a new kernel that was faster than the linux kernel and able to replicate all the functions that google and millions of developers spent 10+ years working on.

So no Huawei fanboys Harmony OS is simply android (technically an android clone since to be called android you must be certified by google). They didn't change s*** it still uses the same linux kernel with all of the google added goodness.

To be a new OS you need to replace the kernel otherwise you don't by the technical definition have a new operating system
Posted by: JVZZR Lies
« on: March 07, 2021, 14:11:25 »

All I would say is that the West wants to be Hypocritical about anything that The Great Dragon does, But the Actual Problem is that the West doesn't and will NEVER APPRECIATE CHINESE ADVANCEMENT IN TECHNOLOGY AND OTHER THING IS THAT THE WESTERN WORLD 🌎 WORLD 🌎 NEVER ACCEPT THAT THE CHINESE DRAGON HAS OVER TAKEN THE WEST OF WHICH THEY WILL ALWAYS BE OF DENIALS

I type in all caps because I angry about Chinese stuff!

Chinese overtaken the west? More like accepted it willingly and claimed AOSP as their own. The whole facade of China's technological rise is built on borrowing from the west, including forced intellectual property transfers through joint ventures, stealing technologies and reverse engineering other people's designs. I actually don't think any of this is totally wrong, because it is cultural to China, but you shouting from the top of the hill while standing on western technology and science makes you sound like an idiot. If it wasn't for open source, this OS wouldn't even exist. So think about that concept, a WESTERN concept of open data, open information and so on. The eastern concept is the complete opposite. Open source was invented in the 80s to 90s by a bunch of non-Chinese people. At least appreciate western ideals like transparency before you shout loudly about China's technological progress. Whatever happened to respecting your elders? In terms of digital technology, your elders are all in the west.

Does that give them the right to spread lies and claim the base is AOSP when it's not? If Windows can run Android apps using an emulator then are you going to tell me Windows is based on Android too? Remember the digital technology you're talking about, computers were invented using a Chinese invention, paper. Without relying on Chinese inventions the West wouldn't be where it is today, when it comes to inventions the Chinese are your elders. Respect them or not but at least have some basic understanding of the topic at hand and don't spread blatant lies.

Modern science practice is based on the ideas that started from the enlightenment, which makes the western countries the elders in this area. China had inventions, but for which the world has already acknowledged several decades over. The invention of random stuff is really a far fetch from the creation of a self-sustaining system of practice that invents new things automatically - e.g. scientific inquiry, open source practices, question instead of obedience. You know, all those things that China takes for granted and suppresses.

Don't spread lies, JVZR.
Posted by: Wonder Egg Plant
« on: March 07, 2021, 12:52:21 »

I want an opinion from a Linux developer on this matter. I'm tired of Huawei fanboys and haters endlessly arguing over a topic neither of them have any clue what they are talking about and echo chambering their respective opinions without taking in knowledges from neutral outsiders. So someone, who has a real experience with developing an OS, please tell me, how does Harmony exactly work? Is it different from Android, and if so, how different are they? Is Ars Technica's report valid or is it inaccurate in some ways? How correct is Huawei's claim? Thanks in advance.
Posted by: Dusan
« on: March 07, 2021, 11:14:23 »

What is the point of this topic.. As a passioned user of mobile phones ,im not interested who did what and how, im interested about new technologies and invents in mobile industry. As you all know, as much as you think, that Huawei has stoled from some western companies, i soo that Huawei had the best progress in camera sector and in battery development.. As i final usser, im interested in phone ussage expirience and thats what its truely important. As a matter a fact, the closest pandan to Huawei is Apple, but for much higher price... I have tested most of mobile phones in this new era and every one pf them has some problems.. But Huawei gaved to me the the best consumer expirience  and thats all that matters.. Its  a shame to close down one company by using some stupid excuses, just to get more buyers and sell more phones..  If you are interested in mobile technology ,you should say that it is wrong to do something like that, killing competition on this way.. competition should be done by new technology and new invents ,not by politics..
Posted by: Peterjones5631
« on: March 07, 2021, 09:51:05 »

Hahaha, look at all these desperate Chinese trolls here. USA showed the world what a paper dragon China was by knocking out Huawei and there was nothing China could do about it. Even OPPO overtook Huawei now, pathetic paper dragon...
Posted by: JZVR
« on: March 07, 2021, 06:51:29 »

Osx is based on linux. Linux has some commercial distros so i don't see a problem in using an open source code to create something proprietary.

The problem isn't one of practice, but is one of principle. OSX is derived from BSD but Apple proudly states this so, and makes explicit mentions and tributes to the nix community.

Huawei at best acknowledges their roots "implicitly". That's a huge difference. If you use open source, you have to state so, and for a large company to scrub this as a secondary concern or even as an implicit matter is a huge issue. That's not how open source works and that's destructive to the spirit of open source. It is just dishonest and deceitful.

Huawei has repeatedly stated they're using a Linux microkernel and that AOSP is the surface layer not the base. But people are either not understanding or they just choose to not understand/keep spreading lies on purpose even if they understand.
Posted by: JZVR
« on: March 07, 2021, 06:48:07 »

All I would say is that the West wants to be Hypocritical about anything that The Great Dragon does, But the Actual Problem is that the West doesn't and will NEVER APPRECIATE CHINESE ADVANCEMENT IN TECHNOLOGY AND OTHER THING IS THAT THE WESTERN WORLD 🌎 WORLD 🌎 NEVER ACCEPT THAT THE CHINESE DRAGON HAS OVER TAKEN THE WEST OF WHICH THEY WILL ALWAYS BE OF DENIALS

I type in all caps because I angry about Chinese stuff!

Chinese overtaken the west? More like accepted it willingly and claimed AOSP as their own. The whole facade of China's technological rise is built on borrowing from the west, including forced intellectual property transfers through joint ventures, stealing technologies and reverse engineering other people's designs. I actually don't think any of this is totally wrong, because it is cultural to China, but you shouting from the top of the hill while standing on western technology and science makes you sound like an idiot. If it wasn't for open source, this OS wouldn't even exist. So think about that concept, a WESTERN concept of open data, open information and so on. The eastern concept is the complete opposite. Open source was invented in the 80s to 90s by a bunch of non-Chinese people. At least appreciate western ideals like transparency before you shout loudly about China's technological progress. Whatever happened to respecting your elders? In terms of digital technology, your elders are all in the west.

Does that give them the right to spread lies and claim the base is AOSP when it's not? If Windows can run Android apps using an emulator then are you going to tell me Windows is based on Android too? Remember the digital technology you're talking about, computers were invented using a Chinese invention, paper. Without relying on Chinese inventions the West wouldn't be where it is today, when it comes to inventions the Chinese are your elders. Respect them or not but at least have some basic understanding of the topic at hand and don't spread blatant lies.
Posted by: JZVR
« on: March 07, 2021, 06:41:42 »

I read through like... 3 comments before I was like "Huawei pays people to bash articles that bash them. Fact." Lol

I know nothing of this new OS, but if it's BASE is AOSP... you didn't produce a new OS. It's like saying Fedora and Ubuntu are different (yet, both are a LINUX flavor, if you will)

If I wanted to produce a new OS, it would have to, at it's BASE and CORE, NOT run on DOS, UNIX, or Linux... It would have to be something else entirely. So if I used a Linux kernel, and said NEW OS! Yeah... I'd be full of S#!t! Just another flavor of Linux.

Just a hint: (you need to develop your own code, to create your own new OS!)

NOT based on Java, or C, or anything. Reinvent the wheel before you try to reinvent transportation. Otherwise, you just have another fancy car.
Yeah there's less than a handful of real comments here, the rest are anonymous trolls, just like what Huawei attempted at Best Buy back in 2018. Most articles here don't even have a single comment yet when it comes to exposing Huawei suddenly dozens of unregistered comments pop up bashing the author, and none of them is actually interpreting the confusing Huawei statement in the article just repeating the empty claims from the comments in the last article, yeah not suspicious at all.

You do know the quote in the article means the exact opposite of what the author thinks it means? Lol if these poorly written articles are not paid attempts then it's just sad that people who don't know the basics are churning out these misleading, inaccurate headlines one after another.
Posted by: JZVR
« on: March 07, 2021, 06:37:44 »

Huawei's marketing department wrote the press release without clearing it with the developers. Happens everywhere. Firms (not only Chinese, also but U.S. and European) need to adopt a healthy failure culture and admit mistakes and mis-communication. Perhaps the message should be that it's a brand new OS based on Android.

It's different at kernel level and is not based on Android, which is exactly what they said here, Android is only the surface layer for compatibility.

 
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