Quote from: NikoB on June 03, 2023, 20:22:48only idiots (with rare exceptions, when a person is on the road, on a business trip) buy to home "gaming" laptops, because the desktop is at least 1.5 times faster, cheaper and quieter at times. Only there you can play comfortably, without a headache from the wild noise of 45-50dBA.

You exaggerate. There are more use exceptions and some less noisy notebooks, albeit not that many with 4090 Laptop indeed.

I'm just a sane expert who understands that all "gaming" laptops are essentially nonsense, invented by marketers. Waste of money.

I consider this class of laptops with entry-level and mid-range cards only as a general-purpose laptop for the home with the most quiet CO in normal operation, thanks to the increased weight of the heatsinks and large coolers. With the possibility of a complete upgrade of memory and disks.

As a cheap replacement for inadequately expensive "working" stations. And no more.

In my country, you can easily assemble a desktop for less than $3,000 (this is the monthly income of a poor person in the USA) with 4080, while a laptop with 4080 will obviously cost more and will be 1.5 times weaker and 3-4 times louder at least.

How can a laptop with a card 1.5 times weaker than a desktop card cost more than a desktop? This is madness. It should cost at least 20-30% cheaper than a faster desktop, where you can literally change everything gradually by upgrading components.

Quote from: RobertJasiek on June 04, 2023, 04:55:20

Quote from: NikoB on June 03, 2023, 20:22:48only idiots (with rare exceptions, when a person is on the road, on a business trip) buy to home "gaming" laptops, because the desktop is at least 1.5 times faster, cheaper and quieter at times. Only there you can play comfortably, without a headache from the wild noise of 45-50dBA.

You exaggerate. There are more use exceptions and some less noisy notebooks, albeit not that many with 4090 Laptop indeed.

Again, don't feed the troll ;)

He insults people as idiots while he is still not able/willing to understand that there is much more about a computer than raw performance. Does he really think that no one except him knows that desktops have a far better price-performance ratio? :D

I will try to explain it in simple words, so that even our genius here can follow: Using a computer is not only about raw performance. If he thinks he needs a desktop 4090, let him buy that insanely overengineered, unefficient crap which draws 2x more power (450 vs 150-175 watts) for 0.5x more performance. LOL Combined with an similarly unefficient desktop cpu you get around 600 watts of combined power draw vs 200-250 watts for not the triple performance and not even double the performance, but only 0.5x more performance. Unefficient and poorly optimized desktop hardware is the smart way according to our genius :D

There are many people who don't need that overkill performance, because they play in FHD or QHD and are fine with 60+ fps. This is a level which can be achieved even by 4060 laptops. Yes, similar fast desktop PCs would be again much cheaper. Surprise, Mr genius. We are aware of that.

Let's get to the point. The desktop has one major, and for many peope a deal-breaking disadvantage: Complete lack of mobility!
Well, of course there are more disadvantages like much worse power efficiency (who cares about energy prices or climate change), aesthetics (an elegant looking laptop is much more appealing than an unelegant, chunky, heavy, ugly desktop case to me) and, last but not least, a desktop setup with big case + big screen + peripherals takes up much more space than a fully flexible, portable notebook solution (living in a small apartment without dedicated work room).

But even if we leave those other disadvantages out and focus on the first contra: With a desktop you are tied to your desk. It is not about gaming everywhere on the go, it is about using your computer everywhere you want like bringing it to the office, to school, to vacation, to a hotel, to a friend's house, to the balcony, to the garden or the living room.

"Buy a desktop and a cheap laptop", he might say.

First: Space. I don't have a lot of it, but even if I had, I don't want to have different computers laying around. I prefer to have a single device.

Second: A desktop plus a solid laptop will narrow down the price gap to a single gaming laptop. It will still be cheaper, but if take the much higher power consumption into account the delta will be even smaller with the time of use.

Third: You have to sychronize all your data you are ocassionally or regularly working on. I don't want to throw all my data into the cloud (which btw. would create additional costs hurting his price argument again).

Fourth: What if someone wants to game on vacation, or a friend's house or in living room etc.? What if someone wants to do some video editing in the office? What if someone wants to show a customer some architectural 3D visualization in the meeting? What if someone does VR stuff and wants to show it on fairs?


The reason why gaming laptops are so popular (for personal use and for many companies) might be that all those people are idiots (except our genius here) or that they highly value flexibility and mobility while still retaining performance of a upperclass to even entry-level high-end desktop (RTX 4090 mobile = RTX 4070Ti) which is more than enough for 95% of people (not long ago the most used graphics card on Steam was a GTX 1060!!).

Obviously mobility and full flexibility come with many disadvantages too. But it is upon every single user to decide if the pros outweigh the contras or not.


@NikoB. It does not matter if you answer my comment or not because I won't read it anyway. I have spent way too much time to explain in detail why requirements and preferences for a computer are so versatile and different. Get it in your brain or let it be. But please stop trolling this forum and insulting people for not sharing your priorities!

About right but currently notebooks tend to be €1000 overpriced. Monitor in portrait position can render notebooks invalid.

Compromise when buying a notebook may be needed but manufacturers get too much of the following wrong:
- keyboard far worse than desktop keyboard
- keyboard models unavailable months after launch
- noise
- display with PWM, large ratio or glare
- battery life
- maintenance

If I had chosen a notebook for €1300 too much, the keyboard would be unusuable after just a few minutes of typing, maintenance (fan cleaning) would be very time-consuming and destroy the notebook, or the notebook would have last-gen speed and be loud. Immobility and DIY work of my new desktop are a much more attractive compromise. Notebook manufacturers need to learn that they must not rip off us endconsumers and produce quality of all components because this I get in a desktop for a reasonable price.

Quote from: Gastredner on June 04, 2023, 11:42:33...

Don't worry about NikoB, he's a jester here and his must-always-say-the-opposite behaviour is entertaining despite him calling everyone else retards/fools/idiots/poor/morons/younametheword; I mean the guy says something today, you literally copy/paste his own paragraph and a day later he replies to it and says the opposite by bombing you with "you clueless idiots" type of things 😅
 
But yeah, him aside, you said it all here very well, excellent and valid points, kudos 👏

Quote from: RobertJasiek on June 04, 2023, 12:16:07Compromise when buying a notebook may be needed but manufacturers get too much of the following wrong:
- keyboard far worse than desktop keyboard
- keyboard models unavailable months after launch
- noise
- display with PWM, large ratio or glare
- battery life
- maintenance

Yep, this is all true but I have one thing to add to you list - excellent build quality, great battery life, very good performance... paired with a sub-300 nits glossy (!) screen that renders device completely unusable outdoors. It's like OEMs are battling hard for the "Ultimate Troll Of The Year" award because I legit have no other explanation how can they be so out of touch with reality to do things like that.

I have the same model with a Ryzen 9 7945HX CPU and 4070 GPU. Impressed with the power it offers for my need which is not for gaming but Machine Learning, but I'm struggling with the idle CPU power draw out of the box.

This article (although for the 7745HX) suggests a possible idle CPU power draw of 8W and this another one I came across on notebookcheck (although for the 7945HX CPU, but non-Legion laptop models) suggest possible idle draw of 8W too.

However, out of the box, in both Balance and Quiet power modes, I can at best get an idle CPU package power draw of 27W and 24W respectively when plugged in. This keeps the idle temperature at 60C and the fan on perpetually at the lowest speed of 1700rpm which produces an annoying whine. I've used stock Windows Power plans and tried some tweaks within Advanced Power Plan settings, e.g. setting Minimum Performance Limit to 5%, but nothing seems to work. Most of the Advanced Power Plan settings seem to be to manage the upper limits of performance, not so much to manage the lower limits.

What am I missing? How can I lower the idle CPU package power so that it can run cooler without the fan running when idle?

Quote from: Gunter Spranz on May 25, 2023, 13:57:23The Legion Pro 5 can be had with a 7945HX in some markets (EU and Asia, not US).
I have one since yesterday and i am very happy with it. I use it for software development and occasionally gaming.

I get about 30000 CB23 with <40db fans and 33000 with 44db fans (90-95C CPU temps though, but care more about noise).
I had better results using Legion toolkit and a custom profile because in Lenovos Vantage the fan curves cannot be adjusted low enough. The built-in profiles in quiet and balanced modes have way too high (and loud) fan curves.

Hi @Gunter, I tried the same too, using a custom mode via LLT and could only lower the fan to a minimum of 1700rpm. Is it the same with you and is 1700 a hard floor imposed by the firmware?

Did you have any luck with reducing the CPU package power draw when the laptop is idle? I can't get anything lower than 24W and 27W of CPU package power with Lenovo's stock Quiet and Balance modes. This keeps the temperature around 60C and the fan is therefore running all the time when idle.

Quote from: Gastredner on June 03, 2023, 14:58:41

Quote from: Neenyah on May 25, 2023, 10:20:48Runs easily that badly optimized shi*fest of Cyberpunk at maxed details - not a gaming laptop for NikoB.

Quote from: NikoB on May 25, 2023, 10:04:00...this is not a "gaming" laptop. If there is no 4090 card.

😁

Quote from: NikoB on May 25, 2023, 10:04:00And from the point of view of a working laptop - the processor is too weak for 2023.

True, it was maybe good back in 1993 but not today 👍 The absolute minimum to do any work in 2023 is the Frontier/OLCF-5 with its 606208 cores, anything less is too weak.

Don't feed the troll ;)

Quote from: Gunter Spranz on May 25, 2023, 13:57:23The Legion Pro 5 can be had with a 7945HX in some markets (EU and Asia, not US).
I have one since yesterday and i am very happy with it. I use it for software development and occasionally gaming.

I get about 30000 CB23 with <40db fans and 33000 with 44db fans (90-95C CPU temps though, but care more about noise).
I had better results using Legion toolkit and a custom profile because in Lenovos Vantage the fan curves cannot be adjusted low enough. The built-in profiles in quiet and balanced modes have way too high (and loud) fan curves.

Fully agree on too much fan noise on the built-in profiles. Take a look at the witcher screenshots in the review. The gpu sits at 67°C in performance mode, which is 20°C under nvidia's thermal limit. I would prefer 80°C and quieter fans.

Gunter, could you tell us something about fan acoustics? I intend to use a laptop stand and my current computer suffers from some high-pitched fan whining sound when standing on it. When using it on the desk it's nearly inaudible, but I want to use the stand for better airflow and ergonomics. I don't wear headphones so fan noise is critical too me.

@Gunter and @Allen: Have you noticed any fan (coil) whine under load (e.g. gaming) when lifting up the laptop?

@Gastredner, I have the Legion 5 Pro with Ryzen 7945HX and have raised it for the same reasons as you suggest. As described at length in another post in this thread, the fan runs perpetually at 1700rpm when the laptop is idle (no background processes running either) with a whining noise. Under load, the sound of the airflow seems to overwhelm the whine which is still there.

Quote from: RNarayan73 on June 13, 2023, 23:40:51tried some tweaks within Advanced Power Plan settings, e.g. setting Minimum Performance Limit to 5%, but nothing seems to work.

Set 1%.

In general, this is a clear problem for all laptops with AMD 45 series - apparently they have something wrong with the microcode for managing the optimization of core consumption in idle.

Intel also has serious problems with high idle consumption in Legion since 2023.

For both platforms, the consumption increased 3-4 times compared to the old series, where they consumed 2.4-3.5W at rest (0-1% load on the processor and also on igpu)

With PL2/PL1 above 100W, it's no surprise that both AMD and Intel, along with laptop manufacturers, screwed up so much in 2023...

Quote from: NikoB on June 14, 2023, 16:29:09

Quote from: RNarayan73 on June 13, 2023, 23:40:51tried some tweaks within Advanced Power Plan settings, e.g. setting Minimum Performance Limit to 5%, but nothing seems to work.

Set 1%.

In general, this is a clear problem for all laptops with AMD 45 series - apparently they have something wrong with the microcode for managing the optimization of core consumption in idle.

Intel also has serious problems with high idle consumption in Legion since 2023.

For both platforms, the consumption increased 3-4 times compared to the old series, where they consumed 2.4-3.5W at rest (0-1% load on the processor and also on igpu)

With PL2/PL1 above 100W, it's no surprise that both AMD and Intel, along with laptop manufacturers, screwed up so much in 2023...

Thanks for your reply, @NikoB.

3-4 times 2.4-3.5W gives a range of the 8-14W which is still way better than the 24 and 27W I'm getting in the Legion's Quiet and Balance modes respectively.

In fact, this notebookcheck review below measured the idle power measured on the 13900HX and 7945HX machines from Asus at 5.8W and 8.3W respectively:
AMD Ryzen 9 7945HX Analysis - Zen4 Dragon Range is faster and more efficient than Intel Raptor Lake-HX (sorry, as a new user, I can't seem to post links even to notebookcheck articles!)

Is this likely to be a Lenovo implementation issue?

Quote from: Narayanan Ramachandran on June 14, 2023, 18:13:04AMD Ryzen 9 7945HX Analysis - Zen4 Dragon Range is faster and more efficient than Intel Raptor Lake-HX (sorry, as a new user, I can't seem to post links even to notebookcheck article

1.  notebookcheck.net/Asus-ROG-Strix-G17-G713PI-Gaming-laptop-impresses-in-the-test-with-the-new-Ryzen-9.701633.0.html
15W Idle system summary
2. notebookcheck.net/Asus-ROG-Strix-Scar-17-G733PY-laptop-review-Intel-is-no-longer-king.706291.0.html
14.5W Idle system summary
3. notebookcheck.net/Asus-ROG-Zephyrus-Duo-16-Notebook-Review-Multitasking-monster-with-AMD-Zen4-RTX-4090-Mini-LED.701152.0.html
19.2W Idle system summary.

Unfortunately, the authors of the reviews in reality never give data purely on processor consumption at rest.

You are not the only one complaining that the results from the reviews do not correspond to the real total consumption, because. many processors at rest, alone, will often consume more than the entire system, which causes more and more distrust of the results. I have a lot of questions for them, but they don't change the way they present the data.

Quote from: NikoB on June 14, 2023, 21:58:20Unfortunately, the authors of the reviews in reality never give data purely on processor consumption at rest.

You are not the only one complaining that the results from the reviews do not correspond to the real total consumption, because. many processors at rest, alone, will often consume more than the entire system, which causes more and more distrust of the results. I have a lot of questions for them, but they don't change the way they present the data.

Thanks again @NikoB. It appears the figures in the reviews of the Asus laptops you shared above are idle power draws for the whole laptop.

However, the idle figures cited in the review of the CPUs 7945HX vs 13900HX below:
www.notebookcheck.net/AMD-Ryzen-9-7945HX-Analysis-Zen4-Dragon-Range-is-faster-and-more-efficient-than-Intel-Raptor-Lake-HX.705034.0.html
is actually the CPU Package Power (if you click the image showing the idle wattages) which stands lower at around 8.3W
www.notebookcheck.net/fileadmin/_processed_/3/5/csm_7945hx_13900hx_idle_2407882839.jpg

That seems credible doesn't it?

On the contrary, my Legion 7945HX CPU package power shows up 24W and 27W in Quiet and Balance Modes respectively. Hence my quandry in trying to figure out what's wrong and how I can deal with it.

I have one question, tt can not support PCIe 5.0 SSD?
As I know 7745HX support PCIe 5.0. :)
Thanks for cool review.

Quote from: RNarayan73 on June 14, 2023, 23:51:52On the contrary, my Legion 7945HX CPU package power shows up 24W and 27W in Quiet and Balance Modes respectively. Hence my quandry in trying to figure out what's wrong and how I can deal with it.

Another buyer of L5Pro 2023 with 7745HX wrote that his laptop consumes about 8W at the processor level and about 15W in total. At least he claims so.

Of course, it's terrible that neither Intel nor AMD did not optimize consumption at rest, but we have what they offer us. This is an oligopoly. And there is no real competition in the sector.

Quote from: James H on June 15, 2023, 10:42:28I have one question, tt can not support PCIe 5.0 SSD?
As I know 7745HX support PCIe 5.0.

This is the shame of the AMD series - the processor consumes 45W less at the same speed as the 13980, which could be redistributed to a discrete gpu or 2 pci-e 5.0 SSD, but here another problem arises, which ordinary people usually do not know about due to technical illiteracy - the RAM bandwidth on x86 is terrible and loses to Apple's solution 3-6 times in 2023, but what's even worse - the memory controller of all the latest Zen3 (+) / Zen4 loses significantly to the Intel memory controller.

Therefore, installing a pci-e 5.0 ssd is pointless - each of them actually requires 1/6-/1/7 system memory bandwidth for themselves, which is a lot considering the requirements of other devices.

And another shameful fact that Jarrod is talking about - despite the fact that the 45 series has as many as 28 pci-e 5.0 lines (Intel is less clear, there are 4.0 / 5.0 in HX), NVidia 4 series discrete video cards are shamefully connected via slow pci -e 4.0 x8, not 16! Although in Intel with pci-e 3.0 they were previously connected via x16, while AMD was then connected via x8, i.e. Intel had a 2-fold advantage in terms of the speed of exchange with the video chip memory. Now, despite the fact that both solutions easily support pci-e 4.0 x16 (AMD is fully ready even for pci-e 5.0), they work in the shameful slow pci-e 4.0 x8.

Well, despite the fact that AMD has 28 pci-e 5.0 lines and does not have a built-in USB40 controller, as well as the TB4 controller is not in the Intel HX series, manufacturers meanly solder the TB4 controller to laptops with Intel HX series, but do not solder 2-4 controllers USB40, although even for 4 USB40 ports (2xTB5 in bandwidth when working in aggregation mode with risers to external eGPUs) only 4 pci-e 5.0 lines are required - and the 45 AMD series has as many as 20 in stock. Shame and vile greed of laptop manufacturers !!

Since with only 70.4 % % Display P3 coverage/no mini-LED option available, only 350 nits and of course the size in general, some may want to connect an OLED TV for true HDR experience, but unfortunately on the LENOVO Legion Pro 2021, 2022 and probably 2023 models, the HDMI output bandwidth doesn't reach the normal HDMI 2.1(a) speeds of 40-48 Gbit/s. There's a vBIOS (video/GPU BIOS) mod that may increase the bandwidth to 40 Gbit/s, but the warranty may be gone then.