If you rely on NumPad and Arrow keys, then you've probably already discovered that these keys are almost always smaller than the main QWERTY keys on most laptops. The resulting experience is noticeably spongier, more cramped, and usually a pain to use when compared to a proper desktop keyboard. Large 17.3-inch laptops are especially guilty of these smaller keys despite having the space for full-size key caps.
https://www.notebookcheck.net/The-small-NumPad-and-Arrow-keys-on-most-laptops-are-a-joke.427968.0.html
The numpad is also the culprit for under the hood god-awful speakers. Why not just giving an usb numpad? Costs nothing and you can plug it in just when you need it. On a multimedia laptop there is no need for a numpad.
The problem is; although not necessarily the majority of the more savvier users, a lot of people out there still needlessly "upgrade" their laptops every 1-2 years when this sort of issue can only be solved with a solid half boycott.
Cursor keys, and dedicated / usable home/end/pageup/pagedown keys are the primary reason I have sidelined just about everything else on the market except thinkpads. Which has made the recent T series changes all the more irritating to me.
Half height cursor up down keys are everywhere on 13' and 15' notebooks today... I can understand it on a surface where your space constrained but its sad that the standard inverted T cursor layout on most chromebooks puts PCs to shame.
15' PCs are content creation machines... the keyboard is a necessary bit but it seems vendors see their machines as video playing web browsers primarily and no matter how high end the specs they cripple they keyboards.
I have a Yoga 720... its essentially brand new... the 1/2 height cursor keys made it annoying to use. I keep it around for 3d rendering with the 1050 but use my Thinkpad p52s for day to day work because it has a dang usable keyboard that's actually designed for work.
Quote from: Dan Ridenhour on July 22, 2019, 04:22:40
Cursor keys, and dedicated / usable home/end/pageup/pagedown keys are the primary reason I have sidelined just about everything else on the market except thinkpads. Which has made the recent T series changes all the more irritating to me.
Half height cursor up down keys are everywhere on 13' and 15' notebooks today... I can understand it on a surface where your space constrained but its sad that the standard inverted T cursor layout on most chromebooks puts PCs to shame.
15' PCs are content creation machines... the keyboard is a necessary bit but it seems vendors see their machines as video playing web browsers primarily and no matter how high end the specs they cripple they keyboards.
I have a Yoga 720... its essentially brand new... the 1/2 height cursor keys made it annoying to use. I keep it around for 3d rendering with the 1050 but use my Thinkpad p52s for day to day work because it has a dang usable keyboard that's actually designed for work.
I'm with Dan on this one -- I keep gravitating back to Thinkpads because of the arrow and PgUp/PgDn keys. Those last two I really don't understand, why so many OEMs omit them, seeing as they generally fit right above the left- and right- arrows. Even Yogas and the entire Surface line go without; as someone who uses Excel a lot, I just don't get it. A few OEMs are putting them in a dedicated column to the right of the Enter key, hat's perhaps not ideal but at least workable. Overall I find it interesting that laptop reviews almost never touch on this point, which is so much more key to usability than nearly any of the tech specs. So thanks to the author for raising.
Surfaces have PgUp/PgDn keys. Yes they have secondary functions as F9-F12, but those rarely come into play so you'll almost always have those as default.
I prefer the Home/End/PgUp/PgDn column to the right, but I can live with my Gigabyte Aero which has them in a row above the Numpad.
On the other hand I will never use a Razer Blade because they lack those keys in a readily available way.
For me, I don't like the numpad, neither on an external keyboard (displaces the mouse too far to the right), nor on an integrated keyboard (displaces the hand position too much to the left in regards to the screen). I mainly write text or code.
A solution on very old keyboards, that I'm amazed they abandonned, was the numpad as a secondary function on part of the alpha-num part of the keyboard, toggled with the numlock button. This allow the same productivity of the numpad, without sacrificing physical space for additional buttons.
Opinion: Numpad is a bloody joke on laptops, that makes you sit looking towards the left side of the screen because your arms are not centered on a laptop that's totally retarded. Those few people who actually need numpad are better off with an external high-quality device; the rest of us prefer sitting at the center of our laptops.
If you think your laptop with numpad is fine - try one without, you'll be surprised.
@SA_NYC - I HATE the page up and page down above the arrow keys! I can tolerate if they are full sized keys, sure. But I'd rather they not be there at all if they are going to be those thin arrow keys.
Why? Cause when I'm using the arrow keys of up and down, I would accidentally click instead of left or right the page up or page down and that is annoying.
So if they have small arrow keys and page down/up above them, it is a deal breaker and I won't buy the laptop.
Not to mention if I had a choice, I prefer the END and HOME over page up and page down. A lot of commands are tied down to the END key specifically. Like Remote Desktop, you can't do ctrl + alt + del, you do Ctrl + alt + END. Having the END key behind the function key means pressing 4 buttons which is a no go.
Dedicated full size keys for all 4 cursor keys, home, end, page up and page down are a real necessity for usability. I don't really use the numeric keypad but always look for one on my notebooks because when they pull it off its almost always part of a 'keyboard minimization' design style... trying to be like apple with a simple and least functional keyboard as possible.
I think today to many manufacturers think that the 'specs' for the machine are to sell it and play games... and that most people will just surf the web and use their touchpad to scroll. They might be right... but not me.
I've also become quite attached to the thinkpad trackpoint. Its just more accurate than a trackpad and you don't have to move your fingers off the keyboard to use it which is a plus if you type for a living.
@Dan Ridenhour - I like the trackpad more than the trackpoint, though probably cause I'm a pecker so I move my hands on and off anyways. I disable all the useless gestures and always op for the usable trackpads with usable click buttons.
But I do like when the trackpoint is there It is useful when my hands are slightly wet.
On that note, I replaced my keyboard this week and just now realized my trackpoint isn't working! Sigh, I gotta remember to reconnect it properly next time I shut down :(
Laptops should either have full sized arrow keys and or numpads or elimate them all together.
For example, when Asus went from the S510 to the S530 and introduced a numpad all bit with downsized keycaps, many thought this was an advantage but I thought of it as a disadvanatge.
This trend with these stupid nonregular keys is so annoying. Why companies are pushing this garbage, you can't play games, you can't use system normally, because you can't hit stupid a** arrow keys properly. Keyboard is a computers BASIC FUNCTIONALITY. I want to buy a laptop for programming and game development with nice specs and average graphics card but it is impossible to buy it with regular keys... Even visually this looks stupid and out of place.
Why can't they just do a 10 key less (no number pad) style? Basically a full keyboard w/o the number pad. It fits on 15.6 screen laptop size. You'd keep everything the same size, and find all the important buttons (home, end, pgup, pgdn, arrows) by feel. This is typically the style of keyboard accessory you buy for laptops, but for some reason they never build a laptop with style keyboard?, its ridiculous! I'm thinking about people who write a lot. (eg authors and coders) but rarely need to hit sequence of numbers.
I'm waiting 2 years to see a good laptop to buy. It is incredible that they insist in these small arrow keys you cannot work. As a programmer I use up and down arrows continously. I own an old chinese "clevo" laptop with OK keys and I postpone a new buy because of this. Another stupid thing is to have FHD in a 15.6 inch laptop. There should be laptops with 1600x900 in 15 inches. And should have light for CAPS / SCROLL LOCK and HD/SSD usage.
Quote from: Gas on May 22, 2020, 11:17:12
I'm waiting 2 years to see a good laptop to buy. It is incredible that they insist in these small arrow keys you cannot work. As a programmer I use up and down arrows continously. I own an old chinese "clevo" laptop with OK keys and I postpone a new buy because of this. Another stupid thing is to have FHD in a 15.6 inch laptop. There should be laptops with 1600x900 in 15 inches. And should have light for CAPS / SCROLL LOCK and HD/SSD usage.
Only two years?
I've been waiting since 2016.
Now there is https://www.notebookcheck.net/A-Mini-Multitasking-Monster-Asus-ZenBook-Duo-14-UX482-Laptop-Review.513033.0.html
Which is looking nice for me. Except they broke the keyboard layout when improving the performance from the previous UX481.
So: either usable keyboard with an MX250
(which is only a tad faster than my current lenovo yoga with a 940m)
Or: unusable keyboard with the significantly better MX450
https://www.notebookcheck.net/12-Watt-GeForce-MX450-beats-the-25-Watt-GeForce-MX350-Testing-the-Asus-ZenBook-14-UX435EG.514186.0.html
Same for me. Full size cursor movement keys are a must for productivity. Been waiting for several years to have a decent keyboard laptop.
I'm from India where (IMHO) only the big brands (Dell, HP, Lenovo, Asus) are likely to have after sales service. So trying to avoid MSI Modern.
Already tried posting feedback several times. Would really love to contact folks who work on laptop design at those big brands ... if they are open to hear. Another way I can think of is to contact laptop reviewers to drive the point back to makers.
I was looking for a Numpad with arrow keys for a long time until I found this one on Amazon. You could search "Teenii mechanical numpad" to find it.
I love it because it is mechanical and programmable.
Hope that it helps.