NotebookCHECK - Notebook Forum

3D is a complete disgrace. EPIC FAIL #2

The author was too lazy and did not evaluate video decoders according to formalized criteria at all.

The fact that Intel 2022 loads iGPU by 44% is a complete nonsense. My old i5 8300H loads at 30-35%. It is already 5 years old.

In short, as I wrote - with such a shameful memory bandwidth, neither Intel nor AMD has anything to catch.

Until x86 starts pumping at least 400 GByte/s as M2 Max, we can not discuss the igpu further. Complete debacle from Apple. Vivat ARM!

Genuine question - what's the point of testing high resolutions in games when we know that they won't work well and when we know that this is an iGPU? Why not add productivity benchmarks instead of gaming ones? Because pretty much any game will work just fine on low enough resolution; I mean my UHD 620 is pushing CSGO at 135 fps without issues at external 720p screen yet I still use eGPU (3060) to play normally on FHD 240 Hz (300+ fps) 🤷�♂️ Can't tell about other games because I don't play anything else but CSGO but I know that I use my laptop for a lot of actual work and having such benchmarks would be really helpful for iGPUs in general.

Quote from: NikoB on May 04, 2023, 20:33:09The fact that Intel 2022 loads iGPU by 44% is a complete nonsense. My old i5 8300H loads at 30-35%. It is already 5 years old.

Yeah I don't get that either. I get 25-35% on my i7 8650 + UHD 620: imgur.com/IpP2K7C

Quote from: NikoB on May 04, 2023, 20:33:093D is a complete disgrace. EPIC FAIL #2

The author was too lazy and did not evaluate video decoders according to formalized criteria at all.

The fact that Intel 2022 loads iGPU by 44% is a complete nonsense. My old i5 8300H loads at 30-35%. It is already 5 years old.

In short, as I wrote - with such a shameful memory bandwidth, neither Intel nor AMD has anything to catch.

Until x86 starts pumping at least 400 GByte/s as M2 Max, we can not discuss the igpu further. Complete debacle from Apple. Vivat ARM!

ARM is absolute toast. Apple is the only company carrying that software-incompatible mess and all they need to do is fumble once (which is likely considering how many software and hardware failures they've had over a decade plus) and AMD and Intel will overpower with ease. With Meteor Lake getting a tiled GPU based on Arc graphics and AMD 8000 series looking to double the iGPU performance, I don't see ARM being an attractive option for ANY PC manufacturers when x86 outperforms in CPU, will outperform in GPU, allows for discrete GPU options, offers REPAIRABILITY of parts, the best software compatibility of any platform in existence, and 90% of the same battery life as ARM options. It's a no brainer why companies don't give a lick about ARM. Either go RISC-V or stay x86. Those are the only logical solutions.

Quote from: arm dies here on May 04, 2023, 21:05:52...I don't see ARM being an attractive option for ANY PC manufacturers when x86 outperforms in CPU, will outperform in GPU, allows for discrete GPU options, offers REPAIRABILITY of parts, the best software compatibility of any platform in existence, and 90% of the same battery life as ARM options. It's a no brainer why companies don't give a lick about ARM.

The most funny thing there is that Apple is oriented to content creators (because that's all they realistically can as everyone else keeps ignoring them as you noticed and said)...

Just to also get completely destroyed there by x86 for the same price; M2 and M2 Pro specifically, gets wiped around by just an i5 13600K + RTX 3050: youtube.com/watch?v=_D0K3-uZMyY
And you also get better performance per $ with the x86 😺 19:40 in the vid: "For the same price point PC, interestingly, provides better performance for the value."
 
Then you add i7 + RTX 3070 and even the most expensive Apple's offering can't come anywhere near that level of performance, lol. Yet people don't give up their praises about Apple doing some miracles, blablabla...

amd really screwed up with this generation...
phoenix is underwhelming, rdna 3 is poor, zen 4 desktop has it's fair share of issues...i guess this is a result of the pandemic keeping engineers at home.

What an absolute mess. Even the "actual" 2023 chips on the latest note are no better than the 2022 ones.

Buying used or refurbished is looking incredibly appealing right now.

Any change in hardware video decoding/encoding?

Can do HEVC 4:2:2 like Intel Quicksync?

These results do not align with other user's benchmarks on youtube using faster ram.

Not convinced until the possible ram bottleneck is analysed... / comparison to notebook with slower 4800MHz ram...

The Radeon 760M was potentially A better handheld Gaming Devices choice with it's 8 RDNA3 CUs that obviously had to be implemented using both shader arrays as a single shader array only provides for 6 RDNA3 CUs. So the 760M is probably implemented as 4CUs from each shader array with 2 CUs disabled on each shader Array.

Now Each Shader Array(See Block Diagram) houses 2 Render Back-Ends(RBE), with 8 ROPs for each Render Back-End for a total of 4 Render Back-Ends across 2 shader arrays and up to 32 ROPs total. But on the 760M only 16 of those ROPs are enabled for the 760M(One render Back-End per shader array). So the 760M's Render Back-End only has 1 RBE enabled per shader array and only 16 ROPs total and a very unbalanced ROPs to Shaders ratio there that really is not going to need that much shader compute there from the 8 enabled CUs on that 760M binning.

If the 760M had all 32 ROPs enabled across all 4 RBEs across 2 shader arrays then it's Pixel Fill Rates could have matched or even exceeded the 780M's Pixel Fill Rates as the 760M would have had fewer CUs and Shader cores enabled and used less power as a result for higher average sustained clock rates. And really the 760M with only 16 ROPs enabled is never going to see even the 8CUs worth of shader compute taxed to begin with, so unbalanced that Shader Cores to ROPs/RBE ratio is there. A Radeon 760M variant with 32-ROPs/4-RBEs enabled would have had a better Shader Cores to RBEs  ratio that could game every bit as well as the 780M as not that much shader compute is needed! And that's especially so for RDNA3 where each Shader core can dual issue FP32 instructions, so plentiful amounts of FP32 compute for 4 full RBEs and 32 total ROPs enabled even with only 8CUs enabled on that 760M SKU. 

Now the numbers of TMUs scales with the CU counts but the RBEs scales with the Shader Arrays enabled so the 760M with less TMUs enabled would have less Texel processing capabilities, but if the clocks are higher on average from having less Shaders enabled and less power draw for higher average sustained clock rates, then any Texel processing deficiency can at least be partially made up there. And if 32 ROPs where enabled on the 760M then if the average clocks rates sustained was higher then the 760M would have a higher average sustained pixel fill rate than even the 780M for gaming workloads.   

It looks like the laptop only have 512MB of VRAM allocated to the 780M GPU. If this is indeed the case, and Windows cannot pull more ram than that, it can cause dramatic loss in performance. I recommend setting the VRAM to 4GB and rerun the test to see if there is any difference.

Not a very impressive gain, despite on paper doubling Tflops. If Meteor Lake's Tile GPU indeed doubles GPU performance over Rocket Lake, it looks like it's well beaten this. 


I wish there were more native games targeting Apples impressive IGP efforts too. They should just pay developers for native Metal 3 ports.

Was the M2 tested in the Pro or fanless Macbook Air?

The UHD630 in the 8th, 9th and 10th Gen i7's and up are pretty unique. HALF-LIFE 2, Episode 1 and 2 runs at 1080p60 maxed out. Along with games like Resident Evil 1 HD remake. Also, RE0 runs great at 1080p30 maxed out. This iGPU (UHD630) in my 8700K saved me when my VEGA64 departed. And my RADEON VII was sold for $2K+. Used the money to get a 6900XT TOXIC with a 3090 and a 55in LG OLED.

Can you test 780M at 25W and include TDP / power limits for efficiency comparisons?

The laptop is bottlenecked by DDR5 memory. The review even mentions the lackluster memory configuration. The reason the 680M laptops are matching the performance is that they aren't as memory starved. They use faster LPDDR5 memory (6400 MT/s). This 780M laptop is running a measly 4800 MT/s.
However even if you put 7000+ MT/s memory in this thing, you'd probably still be memory starved. Apple also uses LPDDR5 and achieves considerable bandwidth and latency advantages.

So basically: wait for laptops with LPDDR5 memory to make useful comparisons.

When that's done, we can start talking about power and OEMs power starving the GPU resulting in bad performance in games.

Quote from: usacomputer on May 05, 2023, 11:01:54AMD Zen 4 is the first X86 with AI ahead of Intel and will be useful for Future Windows 12, Office, and the new AI-focused Direct XII APIs.

Intel is also developing but where is the rush when there is no usage (and W12 is still not available). AMD being the first doesn't mean that everyone else stops immediately.

Quote from: usacomputer on May 05, 2023, 11:01:54RDNA 3 + FidelityFX Super Resolution 3.0 with which you go from 60 fps to 120 FPS and can play AAA Games never achieved by Intel and Apple

Perhaps because neither one is trying to target gamers with their (i)GPUs? While AMD iGPUs are certainly far superior in games they get smoked in anything related to productivity AKA actually working and making money.

AMD needs 6-8GB of Stacked 3D HBM3(512Gbytes/s) onboard memory to make the igpu run very fast. There are still no options with 512-bit DDR5 and never will be.

And of course, the L3 cache in the processor must be at least 256MB at a speed of 1.5Tbytes/s.

@NikoB:

Any thoughts about just giving up on AMD completely for laptops? Just too much incompetence all around. Been 3 years and still blaming pandemic for delays.

I can tell you this, Meteor lake is coming. It's gonna be released on time and will be widely available / in stock. And it's gonna be slightly faster than the 12 CU Radeon 780M but with a massive L4 Adamantine super cache, which should help quite a bit in higher resolution gaming.

What a hackjob, the CPU stack is wildy inconsistent. The underpowered 6800u being used as a reference for 680m performance is a mistake and the ram handicap makes the whole bench run pretty redundant. Better luck next time and maybe choose your parts more carefully.

AMD has kind of never cared about laptops, if we think about it. The first major break through in laptop igpu's was intel added eDRAM on the iris pro 5200. The second major break through was intel payed AMD (since AMD wasn't gonna do anything by themselves) to add vega/polaris graphics on their kaby-lake g platform with HBM. To this day, after 5 years we're just equaling that level of graphics performance with phoenix. That's sad.


What has AMD done? Sell their best APU's exclusively to consoles for the last 10 years.

this is nonsense. just watch new eta prime hands-on review of gpd winmax 2 with 7840u and 32GB lpddr5x-7500. 780m gets smoking fast with right spec. that thing crushes AAA games with just 15-25 Watts and with 35W gets 3418 points in timespy(fastest i've ever seen with 780m). as MLID stated about 7735hs minisforum miniPC, by upgrading from 16G to 32 he gets great boost in fps because of allocating 8G to IGP instead on less than 4. so 32GB of fastest memory available is vital for 780m to stretch its legs.

I will say the reviewer didn't have enough knowledge to the market. People want to see how 780M stack up with entry GTX 1650 or RTX 2050, not something too weak like MX550 or too strong like 3050. Also, the laptop with 780M are usually the thin-and-light models with no dGPU (except G14) and people would also like to see how it compete with Intel side like IRIS Xe, which is quite common on mid-to-high-end thin and light laptop. Last but least, even though it can beat GTX 1650 or RTX 2050 eventually (I am not sure), the higher MSRP somehow will weaken people's interest so you need to analyze if it's worth the price premium, not just giving us a tons of useless comparison

Quote from: usacomputer on May 10, 2023, 13:04:54What Everyone wants is

With all due respect - talk for yourself. And stop copy/pasting the same thing under almost every article.

Quote from: usacomputer on May 10, 2023, 13:04:54With RDNA 3 + FidelityFX Super Resolution 3.0 you can play AAA Games and render 3D and videos, no need for graphics that consume and reduce performance.

Intel with QuickSync is still going to be faster, it's about codecs and hardware optimization too.

Quote from: MTL ADM on May 05, 2023, 23:21:29AMD has kind of never cared about laptops, if we think about it.

What has AMD done? Sell their best APU's exclusively to consoles for the last 10 years.

Any thoughts about just giving up on AMD completely for laptops? Just too much incompetence all around. Been 3 years and still blaming pandemic for delays.

I can tell you this, Meteor lake is coming. It's gonna be released on time and will be widely available / in stock. And it's gonna be slightly faster than the 12 CU Radeon 780M but with a massive L4 Adamantine super cache, which should help quite a bit in higher resolution gaming.

I've been following AMD very closely since last year and see this confirmed. They mostly only care about the console market.

I don't think they give up laptops completely - at least not officially (but maybe inofficially). It's like the laptop market only gets the "remains" of what's left of iGPUs from console sales. That's why probably only few samples with 780m iGPUs will reach the laptop market. The priorities are undeniable since they have such a huge advantage in iGPUs compared to Intel, but don't use it to gain laptop market share.

Frankly, I don't like what AMD does. But I'm also glad they created an impressive 780m iGPU, and therefore put Intel under pressure to also create a better iGPU. When Meteor Lake comes, and is roughly equal to a 780m, and widely available, we "all" will eventually get decent consumer devices - decent all-purpose laptops and Mini-PCs for everyone (and not limited to gaming only).

Since this realisation I also see it like this:
The world of AMD is the world of consoles (stationary consoles or handhelds). 
The world of Intel is the world of serious business and universal, all-purpose devices.

As a consequence Intel represents more of what I expect from computer developments than AMD, and thus will most likely be my preference - even if their upcoming iGPU will not be as fast as a 780m.

Hey Andreas, I'm soon going to publish a long video with 50 games tested on a780m in an AMD A15 and my results are much higher than what you've experienced. I also used 2x16GB of 5600 Mhz ram which was a 10-20 boost from 2x8gb 4800mhz actually.
It is just as fast as an rtx 3050 35w or the 1650 mobile in a lot of games!

Cheers, hubwood