NotebookCHECK - Notebook Forum

Yes, Linux and open source software in general needs more coverage. Back in the day, getting linux working on laptops was difficult with many things not working. Now, 95%+ of the time you can get linux running on a laptop with no issues. With remaining 5% being mostly fixable if you search around
On top of that, linux has come a long way from needing people to open the terminal to get things done. Knowing your way around the terminal helps, but most users can use many linux distros without touching the terminal at all.

Wine has also improved a lot if you happen to really need a windows software and there is also Virtualbox in the off chance wine has problems

But generally, I haven't found a single software that I needed to go back to windows for as linux has good enough alternatives. Many of which can be tried in windows too

Though personally I prefer KDE over Gnome.

I come to this site for your excellent, fact-based in-depth reviews.

This here article has no place on this website for many reasons.

1.
For special symbols & emojis, on Windows 10 & 11 you press Start + . , and that brings up the emoji & symbols panel, in which you can find, neatly categorized, all special symbols that you may need.

Its OK if you prefer the Linux way. But here is also a user-friendly Windows way you should know about and at least present it in your article. Its been with us for years now.


2.
The "MS spying eye", while true, is debatable if its customer-hostile.

3.
The "open source is safer because it is open source" part... Thats just opinion thinly disguised as fact.

Please, Notebokcheck, stick to the well-researched articles that represent who you really are.

I think this article is missing the point. It doesn't matter how many underrated additional features Linux has, I still won't use it only for 1 reason alone. Gaming. I'm not even talking about about modern gaming but many older games have tools, anti-cheat software, patches/mods made by community that were just never really tested as extensively on Linux and as such may behave unexpectedly. I don't want have to fiddle and debug through all this stuff. Often these programs are made by one dev as a hobby and since 99% of the players are windows users, they rather not even waste any time testing for Linux. This problem is never gonna go away so I'm most likely never gonna use Linux.

Also, if I cared about privacy/security at all, I'd just use some arm android derived hardened OS, like GrapheneOS instead. It is pretty common knowledge that the x86 just has more vulnerabilities than arm being a much older ISA that supports a ton of legacy extensions for compatibility. See: madaidans-insecurities(dot)github(dot)io for further details on how desktopOS compare vs mobileOS.

@A:
I also dunno about the whole 'it's far easier to install linux on laptops with no probs' .. Most Ryzen laptops are using mediatek wlan which seems to perform so poorly under it's linux driver that users of Asus ROG G14, x13 and many other laptops are forced to perform surgery on their laptops and swap their wifi chip for an intel AX210. Even after 3 years this practice is still being recommended and well-documented on reddit. Pretty dismal state of affairs I'd say.

Quote from: Irrelevance. on April 25, 2023, 13:47:01@A:
I also dunno about the whole 'it's far easier to install linux on laptops with no probs' .. Most Ryzen laptops are using mediatek wlan which seems to perform so poorly under it's linux driver that users of Asus ROG G14, x13 and many other laptops are forced to perform surgery on their laptops and swap their wifi chip for an intel AX210. Even after 3 years this practice is still being recommended and well-documented on reddit. Pretty dismal state of affairs I'd say.

Before, you could get linux on only 10% of laptops if lucky. And had far more serious issues than just wifi not working.

Most Ryzen laptops are not using mediatek, that said mediatek wlan is known to perform poorly even on windows. Looking at threads on reddit you see people swapping it to Intel even though they  are using windows due to unstable connections.

Overall though, most common reason for wifi issues on linux has been due to use of old kernel. Many distributions stick to LTS kernel, and not all things get backported to the LTS kernel. The mediatek issues on linux were fixed in kernel 5.12 but LTS did not get it until 5.15. The most common distro, Ubuntu had an LTS release in April 2022 with 5.15

@A:

What are most Ryzen laptops using then if not mediatek? I've seen Realtek used in a few budget notebooks and Qualcomm (in a Razer Blade 14, Thinkpad Z series?). There isn't a single one with Intel wifi (Think a few Cezanne laptops had Killer, which is rebranded Intel AX200 - but nothing for Ryzen 6000 series / Rembrandt laptops). Ryzen 7000 seems to use the same as prior gen.


You're right about about mediateks not being great even on windows and people swapping them there as well. I think for this reason alone I will stay far away from laptops in general until amd decides to fix this issue. At least with handhelds even if they use trash wifi chips, you're getting what you pay for. Just find it ridiculous paying thousands for a laptops only to get stuck trash wifi.

However, chromebooks often use cheap mediatek wifi and always have solid connections, so yeah dunno what's going on there..

Agree with NUMBER 2. There is only one way to tame Win10/11, don't allow it internet access.  Ever since I got my Win11 laptop I had always dual boot Win11 with Linux, keeping the Win11 partition permanently offline!

BTW, author forgot about #4:  Built in software not for in Windows. For example Deepin Linux comes with torrent downloader built into the download manager app.  It's been plentiful useful downloading anime episodes with it.  The other thing is Microsoft Edge sucks.  I couldn't use it to translate the web page of my router that is all in Chinese that I bought from Aliexpress.  Deepin Browser is also based on open source Chromium and allows me to translate CHN to ENG on pages that fail to translate in MS Edge!

I've been using Linux for software development for 4 years now, basically because one of the tools I need remains unavailable on Linux (Xilinx Petalinux). Prior to that, I'd used Windows almost exclusively for software development since 1997 (from 1987 to 1997 I used a combination of VAX/VMS, Unix, DOS, Windows 3.1, and that OS that was on the HP-9000 machines).

I find it quite amazing that there are a number of tools, for example Tortoise Git, FileLocator Pro, WinDirStat, that are free and provide nice, simple UI interfaces that help avoid having to remember all sorts of weird incantations on the command line, but which, on Linux, are either available but don't do a very good job (or no longer supported), or you have to pay for the privilege of using on an Open Source OS.

There is often a lot of choice but, in my experience, it would be much better with less choice, and better quality. For example, I use HHD Free Hex Editor on Windows. Even in the free, restricted, version it's a pretty capable tool. I looked for a Linux alternative recently and spent most of a day installing and testing about a dozen hex editors listed in various 'best linux hex editor' articles; pretty much every single one of them was junk. I seem to remember one specific one that was recommended, but it wasn't free.

There are some nice things about developing software on Linux but, on the whole, I think it's easier on Windows.

Quote from: Irrelevance. on April 25, 2023, 21:38:53What are most Ryzen laptops using then if not mediatek? I've seen Realtek used in a few budget notebooks and Qualcomm (in a Razer Blade 14, Thinkpad Z series?). There isn't a single one with Intel wifi (Think a few Cezanne laptops had Killer, which is rebranded Intel AX200 - but nothing for Ryzen 6000 series / Rembrandt laptops). Ryzen 7000 seems to use the same as prior gen.


You're right about about mediateks not being great even on windows and people swapping them there as well. I think for this reason alone I will stay far away from laptops in general until amd decides to fix this issue. At least with handhelds even if they use trash wifi chips, you're getting what you pay for. Just find it ridiculous paying thousands for a laptops only to get stuck trash wifi.

However, chromebooks often use cheap mediatek wifi and always have solid connections, so yeah dunno what's going on there..

From what I saw a lot of Realtek, but it is possible that these things switch around based on generation. I guess with AMD supporting Mediatek as Intel alternative for wifi it may have seen a jump?

Chromebooks are linux. My guess is that since laptops are made for chromebook, they backport the latest kernel firmware. Thus no issues.

To give my experience, around 2 years ago I bought an Intel AX210 to get access to 6e for lower latency. I put it into my linux and it didn't work. The reason was I was on latest LTS build that pinned my kernel at 5.3 on one linux distro(OpenSUSE Leap), and 5.4(Linux Mint) on another. But you needed 5.10 to make AX210 work. And 5.11 if you wanted bluetooth to work

Mint limited what kernels I could get ahead to 5.8 at best. So I had to get a special tool to install latest kernel. For OpenSuse Leap, it was easier, but still some work where I had to install a backports repository.

This is why you often times hear people having new components not working properly. Because they are on an LTS linux build and their component requirement isn't backported. The easiest solution to this for those who want to use newest hardware but don't want to download special apps or repositories is to go Rolling Release. I've avoided Rolling Releases because for work I needed LTS to match, but now with Docker and microvms for my next computer I plan to go rolling release

What even is this article. None of the points are even remotely important and telemetry is necessary to improve software development, almost every linux software comes with telemetry enabled by default. This is just bait for the average MUH LINUX WINDOWS BAD neckbeard.

The remark about telemetry just isn't true.  Telemetry is anonymized data used for reliability metrics and for gauging the popularity of features for product improvement.  Asserting as of it is a fact that telemetry is monetized is pretty irresponsible.  You don't know that.  Even if it is, why should I care if anonymized data is sold?  Not that it is.  I think there is too much imagining what an evil corporation must be up to and then that becomes "common knowledge" about what it IS up to.  Maybe it's more responsible to not repeat unsubstantiated accusations.  Establishing that data is sent 15 times an hour is a far cry from establishing that it's monetizable personally identifiable in nature.

Linux will never become the dominant OS unless it deals with gaming and full Windows compatibility. No one wants to edit a .docx on Linux and make de file unusable on Windows.

Quote from: linuxman on April 26, 2023, 17:47:57What even is this article. None of the points are even remotely important and telemetry is necessary to improve software development, almost every linux software comes with telemetry enabled by default. This is just bait for the average MUH LINUX WINDOWS BAD neckbeard.

Most linux software even if they have telemetry is off by default. And the telemetry is open source so you know exactly what is being sent and where

Quote from: CCJ111 on April 26, 2023, 19:25:26The remark about telemetry just isn't true.  Telemetry is anonymized data used for reliability metrics and for gauging the popularity of features for product improvement.  Asserting as of it is a fact that telemetry is monetized is pretty irresponsible.  You don't know that.  Even if it is, why should I care if anonymized data is sold?  Not that it is.  I think there is too much imagining what an evil corporation must be up to and then that becomes "common knowledge" about what it IS up to.  Maybe it's more responsible to not repeat unsubstantiated accusations.  Establishing that data is sent 15 times an hour is a far cry from establishing that it's monetizable personally identifiable in nature.

It's closed source and sent over encryption, can you prove what and where is being sent?

Quote from: Eduardo on April 27, 2023, 04:03:08Linux will never become the dominant OS unless it deals with gaming and full Windows compatibility. No one wants to edit a .docx on Linux and make de file unusable on Windows.

*nix is technically already the dominant OS, it owns the server space, most devices like routers and mobile phones/tablets. The only place it hasn't dominated is the desktop and even there it is gaining and now at around 22%

Download LibreOffice (default doc editor on most linux and available on windows), make a docx file. Open it in MS Word and see for yourself. It works just fine.

Steam is working on making most games work on linux.

The real bottleneck for linux is most OEMs don't offer linux options off the bat. Only on some models is there a linux option, and you can't access it through the regular page you have to look for it specifically. If people notice they can save $50-100 on going Linux over Windows you'd be surprised how many would choose it in a heartbeat

Quote from: A on April 27, 2023, 04:27:02The only place it hasn't dominated is the desktop and even there it is gaining and now at around 22%

Hah. MacOS and ChromeOS are not Linux. Linux has sub-3% desktop market share, up a whopping 2% from where it was 10 years ago when all the Linux fanboys were saying "we're gaining market share!" They were saying the same thing 10 years before that.

I've dabbled with Linux over these past 20 years. I've never enjoyed it. I've often hated it. I've broken things in Linux with what should have been routine package upgrades more times than I can count. Finding solutions takes top-tier Googling skills, wadding through mostly outdated information. More often than not I'd find a random forum post with my exact issue... And no replies.

Beauty may be in the eye of the beholder, but every Linux desktop experience feels exactly as it did 20 years ago. Clunky. I've settled on Mint lately, but I'll take Microsoft's mishmash of 3 generations of UI cobbled together any day. At least they have vision. Every distro/desktop I've used in Linux feels like it was designed by a committee of engineers in a stale conference room while the lone UX/UI person sits in the corner scribbling in their notebook because they can't get a word in.

You can keep making excuses for Linux on the desktop... If only OEM's... If only more people knew... If only more software was ported. Nah... The real bottleneck for Linux IS Linux.

See you in 10 years when Linux grabs another 1% of desktop share...

Quote from: NotDelusional on April 27, 2023, 10:15:25Hah. MacOS and ChromeOS are not Linux. Linux has sub-3% desktop market share, up a whopping 2% from where it was 10 years ago when all the Linux fanboys were saying "we're gaining market share!" They were saying the same thing 10 years before that.

ChromeOS is Linux. Linux isn't really even an OS, it is the kernel and ChromeOS is on the Linux kernel.
MacOS is on the XNU kernel which is based of FreeBSD. Both Linux and FreeBSD are brothers that came from Unix. Which is why they are referred to *nix.

QuoteI've dabbled with Linux over these past 20 years. I've never enjoyed it. I've often hated it. I've broken things in Linux with what should have been routine package upgrades more times than I can count. Finding solutions takes top-tier Googling skills, wadding through mostly outdated information. More often than not I'd find a random forum post with my exact issue... And no replies.

A lot has changed over the years. For one package managers became better and many will warn you if your dependencies change or etc. Some like OpenSuse even offers multiple versions of same package to allow things to work side by side with little issue.

But the biggest quality of life improvements for average people is introduction of things like FlatPak, Snap and Appimage. They are kind of similar to Microsoft's MSI with some going a step further. They remove the worry of things like needing to upgrade application dependency as all of it is included. Thus, you only need to upgrade packages that keep up your OS, applications are decoupled so you don't need to worry about breaking packages to use latest version of X or Y.

For those who are worried of breaking things but have tech knowledge, I suggest trying NixOS. No more breaking things as you can always go between states. It prevents any package from interfering with others and you can always replicate states or go back and forth.

Another interesting thing to see for tech users is MicroOS which will become the basis for OpenSuse Leap 6. The concept is simple, an immutable OS with all apps are installed either by flatpak or Distrobox(dockerized). It leaves 0 worry of breaking anything

QuoteBeauty may be in the eye of the beholder, but every Linux desktop experience feels exactly as it did 20 years ago. Clunky. I've settled on Mint lately, but I'll take Microsoft's mishmash of 3 generations of UI cobbled together any day. At least they have vision. Every distro/desktop I've used in Linux feels like it was designed by a committee of engineers in a stale conference room while the lone UX/UI person sits in the corner scribbling in their notebook because they can't get a word in.

You clearly have not been using linux that long if you think it is the same as it was 20 years ago.

Mint is a repackaged Ubuntu taking out snap packages and using non-Unity DE with some of their own default software aimed at more casual users. That said, Mint comes with multiple Desktop Environments that can give different experience. Cinemon, Mate and XCFE. All 3 are more closer to older windows with Cinemon having most polish, Mate in the middle and XCFE is most barebone

It's okay, but KDE Plasma 5 is much better, especially over the past years where the experience has been more polished.

Gnome also has their own DE which is fairly polished, but it's a bit too mobile for my taste (like Android, MacOS and OSX kind of interface) but others like it for more modern experience. There are also derivatives like PopOS's Cosmic which is like Mint for Gnome but with a company backing it

QuoteYou can keep making excuses for Linux on the desktop... If only OEM's... If only more people knew... If only more software was ported. Nah... The real bottleneck for Linux IS Linux.

See you in 10 years when Linux grabs another 1% of desktop share...

If that is the case, explain why Android and iOS are beating Windows? Despite being *nix based.

Quote from: A on April 27, 2023, 11:43:02ChromeOS is Linux. Linux isn't really even an OS, it is the kernel and ChromeOS is on the Linux kernel.
MacOS is on the XNU kernel which is based of FreeBSD. Both Linux and FreeBSD are brothers that came from Unix. Which is why they are referred to *nix.

This argument is like saying a Rolls-Royce is a BMW because they're both owned by BMW Group. Or Chrome, Edge, Opera, and Brave are all just Chromium even though all are maintained individually and none are open source. You also negate your argument by bringing up package managers and desktop environments, none of which apply to ChromeOS and MacOS in their intended use case. When people talk about Linux, they are referring to Ubuntu, Fedora, Debian, etc. Google "Linux distros" and you will not find ChromeOS or MacOS listed. Redhat has none of them listed as "popular Linux distros" because no one considers them as such except for diehard Linux fans who are trying to inflate the Linux userbase.

ChromeOS, MacOS, Android, and iOS all work because they are containerized. Yes, you can hack your way around that, but the average user isn't going to be able to install a *nix app on ChromeOS or MacOS. They will be limited to the app stores. I wouldn't be surprised of Apple restricts ALL applications to the app store at some point in the future, but that is a different conversation.

QuoteA lot has changed over the years. For one package managers became better and many will warn you if your dependencies change or etc.

It was just last year that I was able to hose my Ubuntu environment by attempting to install a new version of Python. This is akin to a BSOD in Windows because you install the latest version of .NET. As far as FlatPak goes... now I have to troubleshoot within a container when the app developer fails to include a dependency in their FlatPak package.

QuoteFor those who are worried of breaking things but have tech knowledge, I suggest trying NixOS. No more breaking things as you can always go between states. It prevents any package from interfering with others and you can always replicate states or go back and forth.

Exactly my point. Users shouldn't need to worry about breaking things in the first place. I haven't needed to use system restore on a Windows box since the early 2000's. And yet every time I install an application on Linux I need to worry if it will actually work. If I have all the needed prereqs. If installing those prereqs won't hose the rest of the system. Regular users would give up and go back to their PC or Mac.

QuoteYou clearly have not been using linux that long if you think it is the same as it was 20 years ago.

I guess I should rephrase this to "most Linux desktop environments look like they were designed 20 years ago." Microsoft, Apple, and Google are consistently adding quality of life improvements to their OSes. I supposed I can watch dozens of YouTube videos to see if there is a Linux desktop environment that comes anywhere close. The average user would give up and go back to their PC or Mac.

QuoteIf that is the case, explain why Android and iOS are beating Windows? Despite being *nix based.

Because Ballmer dropped the ball on Windows Mobile. And I still stand by my argument that although Android and iOS are *nix based, they are not Linux and 99% of the tech world agrees with this.

Quote from: NotDelusional on April 27, 2023, 23:03:18

Quote from: A on April 27, 2023, 11:43:02ChromeOS is Linux. Linux isn't really even an OS, it is the kernel and ChromeOS is on the Linux kernel.
MacOS is on the XNU kernel which is based of FreeBSD. Both Linux and FreeBSD are brothers that came from Unix. Which is why they are referred to *nix.

This argument is like saying a Rolls-Royce is a BMW because they're both owned by BMW Group. Or Chrome, Edge, Opera, and Brave are all just Chromium even though all are maintained individually and none are open source. You also negate your argument by bringing up package managers and desktop environments, none of which apply to ChromeOS and MacOS in their intended use case. When people talk about Linux, they are referring to Ubuntu, Fedora, Debian, etc. Google "Linux distros" and you will not find ChromeOS or MacOS listed. Redhat has none of them listed as "popular Linux distros" because no one considers them as such except for diehard Linux fans who are trying to inflate the Linux userbase.

ChromeOS, MacOS, Android, and iOS all work because they are containerized. Yes, you can hack your way around that, but the average user isn't going to be able to install a *nix app on ChromeOS or MacOS. They will be limited to the app stores. I wouldn't be surprised of Apple restricts ALL applications to the app store at some point in the future, but that is a different conversation.

The are all *nix though, the reality is there isn't any actual difference between Linux distros. Even more so to the average user. The average user just interacts with the Desktop Environment and whatever apps come pre-installed. Linux distros are effectively premade choices of package managers, apps, DEs and etc. It is also why Mint can give a different experience(to the average user) based on which DE you choose despite being the same distro.

Trying to argue ChromeOS and Android are not Linux or MacOS and iOS is not BSD is like arguing that lions aren't felines cause they are so different from cats.

You do not find ChromeOS as a linux "distro" because it isn't "distroed". You can't officially install ChromeOS on a laptop.(You can unofficially). Your argument is like saying if BMW made limited production founder cars they gave out to select people. Trying to argue they aren't BMW cars because you can't find them on BMW dealer's website.

Quote

QuoteA lot has changed over the years. For one package managers became better and many will warn you if your dependencies change or etc.

It was just last year that I was able to hose my Ubuntu environment by attempting to install a new version of Python. This is akin to a BSOD in Windows because you install the latest version of .NET. As far as FlatPak goes... now I have to troubleshoot within a container when the app developer fails to include a dependency in their FlatPak package.

Ubuntu package manager isn't that great (unless you stick to Snaps), try OpenSuse's Yast or Nix package manager.

As for flatpak not including dependency, that is a packaging problem. It happens on windows too when they don't package a dll or running older/newer programs made for different versions of windows

Quote

QuoteFor those who are worried of breaking things but have tech knowledge, I suggest trying NixOS. No more breaking things as you can always go between states. It prevents any package from interfering with others and you can always replicate states or go back and forth.

Exactly my point. Users shouldn't need to worry about breaking things in the first place. I haven't needed to use system restore on a Windows box since the early 2000's. And yet every time I install an application on Linux I need to worry if it will actually work. If I have all the needed prereqs. If installing those prereqs won't hose the rest of the system. Regular users would give up and go back to their PC or Mac.

Your example was a bit more than simply installing an app. Your example was installing python which is something a programmer would do. Since python is tied down to the OS dependency, breaking the version can cause problems. This is precisely why I like OpenSuse and Nix over ubuntu, because they let you have multiple versions with little issue of things breaking. But for regular users, Ubuntu is perfectly fine. They aren't going to break anything.

Quote

QuoteYou clearly have not been using linux that long if you think it is the same as it was 20 years ago.

I guess I should rephrase this to "most Linux desktop environments look like they were designed 20 years ago." Microsoft, Apple, and Google are consistently adding quality of life improvements to their OSes. I supposed I can watch dozens of YouTube videos to see if there is a Linux desktop environment that comes anywhere close. The average user would give up and go back to their PC or Mac.

Many Linux desktop environments are sticking to older designs to capture the crowd that is swapping from Windows 7 as they don't like windows 8+

Now that is shifting more towards designs more closer to mobile with recent Gnome upgrade.

I suggest trying OpenSuse Tumbledweed with KDE Plasma 5.27 (Mix of modern and classic) and PopOS Cosmos (more mobile chromeos like feel). You can load it up in a virtualbox and play around. They are much more modern takes than Cinemon/Mate/XFCE that you get on Mint.

Quote

QuoteIf that is the case, explain why Android and iOS are beating Windows? Despite being *nix based.

Because Ballmer dropped the ball on Windows Mobile. And I still stand by my argument that although Android and iOS are *nix based, they are not Linux and 99% of the tech world agrees with this.

They are all *nix, Android and ChromeOS are linux. Don't speak for the tech world. They are just not considered "Linux Desktop" though ChromeOS can fit into Linux Desktop. It can even run Linux apps, no hacking needed (as long as you are on x86)

Have you installed Windows 11 recently? It asks you a lot of yes/no questions during the initial startup of a clean install, which gives you the opportunity to turn off most of the data Windows sends back to Microsoft, and only keep the data that's genuinely required for Windows to operate. None of these questions are defaulted to Yes, they have no default at all, and let the user decide.

Having said that, I personally don't mind enabling these options as (a) I don't have a problem with providing anonymized data to help Microsoft improve its products, and (b) it will help me see more personalized ads (if I'm going to see ads anyway, they may as well be personalized).

Quote from: NotDelusional on April 27, 2023, 10:15:25Linux has sub-3% desktop market share, up a whopping 2% from where it was 10 years

Those are Steam player base numbers. Not total Linux desktop numbers.

The most accurate non_Steam stat puts it at just over 5% global desktop marketshare. But even that number isn't accurate due to the fact the Linux desktops usually don't have any telemetry, so those stats are built off of the browser user-agent from visitors to sites. So the real number is going to be higher.

And that puts Windows at about 82% for traditional OSes (Windows, macOS, and Linux) and that drops down to ~40% after you start considering newer systems like ChromeOS.

And that Steam Linux users count puts the raw number at just shy of 2 million players. And that's *monthly active* players, not total.

Quote from: Adam393 on April 28, 2023, 06:48:00which gives you the opportunity to turn off most of the data Windows sends back to Microsoft, and only keep the data that's genuinely required for Windows to operate.

Do you hear yourself when you write these things? There's nothing that can justify sending 15 bursts of data per hour back to Microsoft on my system when I'm writing a document or playing a game.

Quote from: Adam393 on April 28, 2023, 06:48:00Having said that, I personally don't mind enabling these options as (a) I don't have a problem with providing anonymized data to help Microsoft improve its products, and (b) it will help me see more personalized ads (if I'm going to see ads anyway, they may as well be personalized).

"it will help me see more personalized ads"

"if I'm going to see ads anyway, they may as well be personalized"

I think... I think that just about says more than anyone can say here.

For your sake, I hope they at least put some sweet flavouring on their boots before you lick them.

Most of all I am amused by amateurish statements about "open source code". Firstly, it is not 100% open - a lot of hardware only works with the manufacturer's binary drivers. Second, what % of the population is able to audit source code? And how many % of programmers on the planet? You don't need to answer. The question was rhetorical.

Linux is such a security hole from the moment you install it. But no one owes you anything.

And everyone who needs to raise their reputation in the resume in 99% of cases does it in order to get a better paying job. Those. novice developers, most often students (read amateurs). Nobody cares about security in Linux, because. no one cares about that.

Linux will never be able to significantly increase its market share, because it is not a commercial product where developers make money by creating it.

Has M$ been abusing its dominance for years? But this is not a question for its beneficiaries, this is a question for corrupt politicians and officials in the West and in general in the world.

Quote from: NikoB on May 03, 2023, 19:57:48Most of all I am amused by amateurish statements about "open source code". Firstly, it is not 100% open - a lot of hardware only works with the manufacturer's binary drivers. Second, what % of the population is able to audit source code? And how many % of programmers on the planet? You don't need to answer. The question was rhetorical.

A lot of hardware does not mean all hardware. Actually, many distros do offer open source only by default with proprietary drivers as optional. Most common hardware has open source versions these days.

QuoteLinux is such a security hole from the moment you install it. But no one owes you anything.

And everyone who needs to raise their reputation in the resume in 99% of cases does it in order to get a better paying job. Those. novice developers, most often students (read amateurs). Nobody cares about security in Linux, because. no one cares about that.

Not sure where you get this nonsense, security in linux is taken fairly seriously. And you aren't going to get a raise for knowing linux either, in many tech spaces knowing linux is just the bare minimum.

QuoteLinux will never be able to significantly increase its market share, because it is not a commercial product where developers make money by creating it.

It most definitely is a commercial product. It simply has a different model. Red Hat and Suse keep commercial versions of their OS, and have forks upstream for non-commercial. They along with Canonical sell extended security upgrades as well and support. Google also offers ChromeOS and Android.

Linux already owns the majority of marketshare in pretty much everything except the Desktop. Servers? Linux. Electronics with operating systems(like routers)? Linux. Mobile phones? Linux

There is one thing missing from most Linux distros, and what is also the ever-present issue of most open-source software: central direction.
Customizable, sure, but at what price? You have 5 different ways to change a simple setting, and 4 of them are only available from the Terminal. Vim is also customizable, and there is a reason why it's dying out (thank God).
As long as people are using operating systems, there must be human-centric design involved in the process of making software. Most Linux distros, even though secure, free and customizable, basic usability principles like visibility of state and discoverability are basically non-existent.

Quote from: Lorinc on May 05, 2023, 08:50:23There is one thing missing from most Linux distros, and what is also the ever-present issue of most open-source software: central direction.
Customizable, sure, but at what price? You have 5 different ways to change a simple setting, and 4 of them are only available from the Terminal. Vim is also customizable, and there is a reason why it's dying out (thank God).
As long as people are using operating systems, there must be human-centric design involved in the process of making software. Most Linux distros, even though secure, free and customizable, basic usability principles like visibility of state and discoverability are basically non-existent.

That is dated view of linux, the issue you speak of is less an issue of distros and more of DEs. but many DEs have come a long way for streamlined experience, KDE and GNOME come to mind or COSMIC. You can run those DE's without going into console once. Or if you want ones closer to older windows, Cinemon and Mate give you a basic experience.

KDE especially has been working to make not just the DE but software more streamlined.

PS having 5 different ways to change a simple setting and 4 of them being from the terminal just means that you have 1 way to change things with is through GUI. Just cause you can change it also through other ways isn't really a problem unless they conflict with one another. Usually though they just all do the same thing. Just using different cli tools vs gui tool.

A lot of holes found in the Linux kernel and uncorrected for 10-20 years, suggests otherwise. And my rhetorical question about the possibility of auditing the Linux code immediately nullifies the stupid propaganda that you have the source code. Who can test it in practice after each release? The answer is no one on the planet at its volume of change.

Pointing out that Linux is a commercial product is generally stupid, because it's about business. What should the average person do? For him, Linux "out of the box" is 100% insecure, prohibitively difficult to set up and use compared to Windows. There, by default, as in Windows, all network settings are made to allow any application and OS requests to the network. And this is unthinkable! The correct policy should initially be in all OS - "everything is prohibited" and then we only allow what we need, and not by corporations and authorities.

That is why Windows has been reigning on the market for more than 30 years, and "free" Linux still drags out a miserable share among individuals of no more than 1-2% of the population.

You can formally call Android a fork of Linux, but this is precisely a commercial OS. But even in it, on smartphones, there is no question of the real security of the owner's data - Google deliberately made Android so that it does not have a "out of the box" firewall that is convenient in terms of settings and UI, which can suppress any activity of applications and OS, if the owner wishes. Why is this done? Of course, in order to collect user data by criminal covert methods and sell it to the market, as well as use it for your own purposes.

What prevented Android from making a complete firewall that crushes any activity, including wi-fi, with simple and flexible customizable methods available to anyone (if desired) in advanced mode?

To restrict any downloaded software by access rights, regardless of their installation requirements? And it's very simple - then the creators of these applications will not be able to show ads (you can easily suppress them) and will not be able to steal your data.

Both Google and Apple and all smartphone manufacturers only pretend to be cynical that they care about the security of customer data - in reality, they do not care about it at all - they have the exact opposite task - to steal and secretly collect all your personal data. Therefore, both Android and iOS are made in this way, and not as it should be according to common sense, if the goal was maximum client security.

The most interesting thing is that the American and other intelligence agencies / state / are persecuting all startups that are trying to make alternative firmware that just eliminate all these holes. Under a plausible pretext, allegedly fighting crime and drug dealers.

In reality, the officials and security forces of every country in a nightmare see a situation in which citizens outside their control secretly correspond and conduct business.

So leave hope in the "open" Linux - there is not and never will be any security for the average layman. For a bunch of super-experts, maybe. But what does it change?

Quote from: NikoB on May 05, 2023, 20:18:05A lot of holes found in the Linux kernel and uncorrected for 10-20 years, suggests otherwise. And my rhetorical question about the possibility of auditing the Linux code immediately nullifies the stupid propaganda that you have the source code. Who can test it in practice after each release? The answer is no one on the planet at its volume of change.

And what holes are those? And so you know how linux kernel works is there is stable LTS branch and mainline branch. Most use the stable LTS branch and backport security fixes to older LTS kernels. So there is no need to audit everything at once.

QuotePointing out that Linux is a commercial product is generally stupid, because it's about business. What should the average person do? For him, Linux "out of the box" is 100% insecure, prohibitively difficult to set up and use compared to Windows. There, by default, as in Windows, all network settings are made to allow any application and OS requests to the network. And this is unthinkable! The correct policy should initially be in all OS - "everything is prohibited" and then we only allow what we need, and not by corporations and authorities.

Linux is a kernel, Linux distros vary. Many are as easy if not easier than windows. What you are describing is configuration of a firewall.

QuoteThat is why Windows has been reigning on the market for more than 30 years, and "free" Linux still drags out a miserable share among individuals of no more than 1-2% of the population.

The real reason is because most oems have never even offered linux in the first place. People just use wherever they are given.

QuoteYou can formally call Android a fork of Linux, but this is precisely a commercial OS. But even in it, on smartphones, there is no question of the real security of the owner's data - Google deliberately made Android so that it does not have a "out of the box" firewall that is convenient in terms of settings and UI, which can suppress any activity of applications and OS, if the owner wishes. Why is this done? Of course, in order to collect user data by criminal covert methods and sell it to the market, as well as use it for your own purposes.

Android is no different than many forms of Linux distros. Android would be like RedHat and SUSE. And AOSP would be like Fedora/Centos and OpenSuse.

QuoteWhat prevented Android from making a complete firewall that crushes any activity, including wi-fi, with simple and flexible customizable methods available to anyone (if desired) in advanced mode?

To restrict any downloaded software by access rights, regardless of their installation requirements? And it's very simple - then the creators of these applications will not be able to show ads (you can easily suppress them) and will not be able to steal your data.

It is there, any app that access the internet needs network permission, it is just not configurable by default. But not sure how it is relevant.

QuoteBoth Google and Apple and all smartphone manufacturers only pretend to be cynical that they care about the security of customer data - in reality, they do not care about it at all - they have the exact opposite task - to steal and secretly collect all your personal data. Therefore, both Android and iOS are made in this way, and not as it should be according to common sense, if the goal was maximum client security.

The most interesting thing is that the American and other intelligence agencies / state / are persecuting all startups that are trying to make alternative firmware that just eliminate all these holes. Under a plausible pretext, allegedly fighting crime and drug dealers.

In reality, the officials and security forces of every country in a nightmare see a situation in which citizens outside their control secretly correspond and conduct business.

Not sure how any of this is relevant to linux itself. Linux/BSD are open source, as long as you don't violate the license you are free to do whatever you wish with it. Be it make a secure distro or insecure one.

QuoteSo leave hope in the "open" Linux - there is not and never will be any security for the average layman. For a bunch of super-experts, maybe. But what does it change?

Most linux distros actually give option to not include telemetry by default. And shift to microvms and containers actually will allow much easier control over what apps can do and make it simple enough for the average user.

But even without that, as long as you stick to open source apps you can insure nothing is sent. You don't even have to audit the entire code. Just see if there is out traffic and then search in the source code the connection point.

Quote from: A on May 05, 2023, 23:50:20And what holes are those?

Don't play dumb. There are no less holes in Linux than in Windows. Everything is on the Internet. Take the trouble to find - if you don't want to - these are your personal problems.

Quote from: A on May 05, 2023, 23:50:20And so you know how linux kernel works is there is stable LTS branch and mainline branch. Most use the stable LTS branch and backport security fixes to older LTS kernels. So there is no need to audit everything at once.

There are no stable branches. This is all a scam.

Quote from: A on May 05, 2023, 23:50:20Many are as easy if not easier than windows

Why hasn't "free" Linux conquered the market among individuals so far? =)

Quote from: A on May 05, 2023, 23:50:20What you are describing is configuration of a firewall.

Again you pretend to be a simpleton and a fool, but this number will not work with me. Security is main key for any OS. There is no security in any version of Linux - this is a direct hole in the Internet into which any software climbs, by default, whatever it wants.

No flexibly customizable firewall with a convenient UI - no security. The goals of creating Linux were 100% - Not security.

Quote from: A on May 05, 2023, 23:50:20The real reason is because most oems have never even offered linux in the first place. People just use wherever they are given.

Again lies of the sectarian of the Lynx camp.

I bought a Dell G5 with Ubuntu LTS. Despite the fact that I'm a IT pro, I killed it OS in the layman mode in exactly 3 hours of settings, moreover, with the setting that OS herself suggested to me as a hint... After that, just followed the format of the disk and the installation of W10. =)

Quote from: A on May 05, 2023, 23:50:20Android is no different than many forms of Linux distros. Android would be like RedHat and SUSE. And AOSP would be like Fedora/Centos and OpenSuse.

And they are all full of holes. There can be no question of any security there for a private person. =)

Quote from: A on May 05, 2023, 23:50:20It is there, any app that access the internet needs network permission, it is just not configurable by default. But not sure how it is relevant.

And now you are stupidly and brazenly lying, conducting a dialogue with a professional. There is no protection from Wi-Fi access, system component access, etc. There is no integrity checking and no permission to run components individually and no expert mode. Even over the cellular network, protection is not complete, which is clearly proven by traffic leaks on Android on the second SIM, on which the traffic is paid. In all versions without exception.

Everything is done intentionally so that smartphones are an ideal device for stealing owners' data and tracking them by TNCs and the state.

And small companies that, in the same USA, are trying to make really secure firmware with p2p traffic encryption - are illegally persecuted by bandits on behalf of the US state (stationary bandits and organized organized criminal groups) on far-fetched pretexts, which clearly proves the criminal state of affairs with the security of the owners of most smartphones in the world. All this is done in such a vein INTENTIONALLY.

Quote from: A on May 05, 2023, 23:50:20Not sure how any of this is relevant to linux itself. Linux/BSD are open source, as long as you don't violate the license you are free to do whatever you wish with it. Be it make a secure distro or insecure one.

I already asked a rhetorical question earlier (the answer is obvious to an adequate person so that the sectarians do not try to object) - how many people in the world are able to conduct a full audit of each new release (this must be done MANDATORY) of the current Android kernel and all of its system software? How long will it take for an audit, even for someone who understands this at the highest level?

How many companies actually post the source code of their firmware without violating the terms of GPL2/3 by hiding part of the code?

How many hardware drivers are in the source code? In reality, a minority.

Why should I repeat this if I have to deal with inadequate sectarians?

Quote from: A on May 05, 2023, 23:50:20But even without that, as long as you stick to open source apps you can insure nothing is sent. You don't even have to audit the entire code. Just see if there is out traffic and then search in the source code the connection point.

Why in this mean and dirty world should I trust anyone?

Most are simply forced to agree to the conditions that are imposed on them. In an alternative scenario - they just become outcasts (at best case). And at worst case, as shown above, if they try to fight, they are declared as criminals by scoundrels from TNCs and the goverments.


That is why Windows, despite the fact that it is paid (although more than 60% of the world's population did not formally buy the rights to it, but in reality the mark-up for it is skillfully included in the cost of final goods at all stages of development), continues to be used by the majority of the world's population. Strange right? For some reason, people stubbornly refuse "open source" and more "safe" software, as crazy sectarians will assure - most of which are not even able to assemble OS/Soft from part of the available source code and less than 0.0001% of them are able to conduct a full audit of the code even in older versions...

Quote from: NikoB on May 08, 2023, 13:57:20

Quote from: A on May 05, 2023, 23:50:20And what holes are those?

Don't play dumb. There are no less holes in Linux than in Windows. Everything is on the Internet. Take the trouble to find - if you don't want to - these are your personal problems.

Windows has way more holes than Linux. The reason is simple, far more eyes on linux to vet code.

Quote

Quote from: A on May 05, 2023, 23:50:20And so you know how linux kernel works is there is stable LTS branch and mainline branch. Most use the stable LTS branch and backport security fixes to older LTS kernels. So there is no need to audit everything at once.

There are no stable branches. This is all a scam.

What nonsense are you talking about, just cause you have no clue how linux works does not mean there is no stable branches. Stable branches are old code that is maintained for long period of time where only security patches are backported. Many stable distributions run 10 years + extended maintenance.

Quote

Quote from: A on May 05, 2023, 23:50:20Many are as easy if not easier than windows

Why hasn't "free" Linux conquered the market among individuals so far? =)

Because oems don't offer linux. Only recently did they start offering a few laptops with linux and even then they are hidden from users.

Quote

Quote from: A on May 05, 2023, 23:50:20What you are describing is configuration of a firewall.

Again you pretend to be a simpleton and a fool, but this number will not work with me. Security is main key for any OS. There is no security in any version of Linux - this is a direct hole in the Internet into which any software climbs, by default, whatever it wants.


No flexibly customizable firewall with a convenient UI - no security. The goals of creating Linux were 100% - Not security.

Security is more complex than just giving apps internet access or not. And yes there are linux distributions which isolate everything, for example Qubes OS, it runs everything in a VM while giving easy access.

PS Configurable firewalls exist for all operating systems

Quote

Quote from: A on May 05, 2023, 23:50:20The real reason is because most oems have never even offered linux in the first place. People just use wherever they are given.

Again lies of the sectarian of the Lynx camp.

I bought a Dell G5 with Ubuntu LTS. Despite the fact that I'm a IT pro, I killed it OS in the layman mode in exactly 3 hours of settings, moreover, with the setting that OS herself suggested to me as a hint... After that, just followed the format of the disk and the installation of W10. =)

You are speaking nonsense you know right? Most of 90s and 2000s, you had no linux option, only last few years some oems offer linux options. And only on a few laptops, not every laptop. And they are usually hidden from most people.

Quote

Quote from: A on May 05, 2023, 23:50:20Android is no different than many forms of Linux distros. Android would be like RedHat and SUSE. And AOSP would be like Fedora/Centos and OpenSuse.

And they are all full of holes. There can be no question of any security there for a private person. =)

They are good enough for banks and government agencies to use for their security.

Quote

Quote from: A on May 05, 2023, 23:50:20It is there, any app that access the internet needs network permission, it is just not configurable by default. But not sure how it is relevant.

And now you are stupidly and brazenly lying, conducting a dialogue with a professional. There is no protection from Wi-Fi access, system component access, etc. There is no integrity checking and no permission to run components individually and no expert mode. Even over the cellular network, protection is not complete, which is clearly proven by traffic leaks on Android on the second SIM, on which the traffic is paid. In all versions without exception.

You are clearly not a professional. There is protection from wifi access, even on android wifi isn't turned on by default. You are free to run your android or computer without using wifi. And all systems have integrity checking and signing. Android has a permissions for networking, if you ever developed an android app, you would know you have to request network access. The only difference is that out of box android does not let users configure that permission, you just only get a list saying "this app has internet access". Aka, you can download apps that do not have network access and be sure they don't access the internet.

QuoteEverything is done intentionally so that smartphones are an ideal device for stealing owners' data and tracking them by TNCs and the state.

I am not disagreeing with that.

QuoteAnd small companies that, in the same USA, are trying to make really secure firmware with p2p traffic encryption - are illegally persecuted by bandits on behalf of the US state (stationary bandits and organized organized criminal groups) on far-fetched pretexts, which clearly proves the criminal state of affairs with the security of the owners of most smartphones in the world. All this is done in such a vein INTENTIONALLY.

You are confusing security with anonymity. Not the same thing. Obviously anonimizer will face some prosecution is it is also often used by criminals. that doesn't mean that everyone using them is a criminal of course.

Quote

Quote from: A on May 05, 2023, 23:50:20Not sure how any of this is relevant to linux itself. Linux/BSD are open source, as long as you don't violate the license you are free to do whatever you wish with it. Be it make a secure distro or insecure one.

I already asked a rhetorical question earlier (the answer is obvious to an adequate person so that the sectarians do not try to object) - how many people in the world are able to conduct a full audit of each new release (this must be done MANDATORY) of the current Android kernel and all of its system software? How long will it take for an audit, even for someone who understands this at the highest level?

Just because everyone doesn't audit the entire code doesn't mean people don't. All patches submitted are audited by first the reviewers, and then by downstream vendors. Be aware most servers and many electronics all run linux. Many companies even have policies that mandate auditing

QuoteHow many companies actually post the source code of their firmware without violating the terms of GPL2/3 by hiding part of the code?

No one is forced to post source code under GPL. Only if you distribute the code, the ones you distribute to have right to ask for the source code. You can bundle proprietary components without releasing their source fyi

QuoteHow many hardware drivers are in the source code? In reality, a minority.

Most. It is enough that many linux distros start you off with open source drivers only and you have option for also closed source "optionally".

QuoteWhy should I repeat this if I have to deal with inadequate sectarians?

Quote from: A on May 05, 2023, 23:50:20But even without that, as long as you stick to open source apps you can insure nothing is sent. You don't even have to audit the entire code. Just see if there is out traffic and then search in the source code the connection point.

Why in this mean and dirty world should I trust anyone?

Most are simply forced to agree to the conditions that are imposed on them. In an alternative scenario - they just become outcasts (at best case). And at worst case, as shown above, if they try to fight, they are declared as criminals by scoundrels from TNCs and the goverments.

In linux, nobody is forcing you to trust anyone. You can be as cautious or as not cautious as you want. I you don't trust anyone, feel free to audit the entire source.

QuoteThat is why Windows, despite the fact that it is paid (although more than 60% of the world's population did not formally buy the rights to it, but in reality the mark-up for it is skillfully included in the cost of final goods at all stages of development), continues to be used by the majority of the world's population. Strange right? For some reason, people stubbornly refuse "open source" and more "safe" software, as crazy sectarians will assure - most of which are not even able to assemble OS/Soft from part of the available source code and less than 0.0001% of them are able to conduct a full audit of the code even in older versions...

Not strange at all, if I go to dell's website and my only option is windows unless I jump a lot of extra hoops your result is going to be that. In the server space or electronics space, there is a choice between windows or linux. Weird how linux dominates there. Even on Microsoft's own Azure cloud, almost half run linux.

Sorry dude, but I can't continue arguing with a deranged Linux cultist who simply ignores direct facts and lies about everything, and prefers not to answer direct questions.

Linux is not good enough today to even just check out new hardware when buying.

As you sat with your 1% of the world market 20 years ago, you will continue to sit. Until you get smarter and do what people need.

Quote from: NikoB on May 09, 2023, 08:20:41Sorry dude, but I can't continue arguing with a deranged Linux cultist who simply ignores direct facts and lies about everything, and prefers not to answer direct questions.

Linux is not good enough today to even just check out new hardware when buying.

As you sat with your 1% of the world market 20 years ago, you will continue to sit. Until you get smarter and do what people need.

Just because I disagree with you makes me deranged? Since you can't win on facts you instead resort to personal insults?

The world is already running on linux, from phones, to routers, to servers. The only space it hasn't broke through much is the desktop, a lot of it is due to it simply not being offered.

Lets play a little game since you believe linux is so easily available by oems, lets go to dells website, click laptops. Now use the filter results that they give you to find a linux laptop. (Not counting chromebooks which they have a whopping 4 options of). I'll wait how you demonstrate how easy it is to get linux for an average person from Dell.

Unfortunately the linux diversity is a huge problem. Not only is it difficult to choose a distro, but every distro has its own problems. Be it because of different UI, different kernel versions, different preinstalled apps, different libs, etc. All these things can hugely increase the error rate - and they do.
Not long ago I tried out 5 popular linux distros and each one of them had something which didn't work, but worked on the others, and vice versa. That's not the desktop experience I would like to recommend users. That's also not an attractive system for 3rd party developers. Just imagine the nightmare you'll have if you want to give support, and each distro has another cause why it fucks up the app.

It's sad. Honestly. In fact I wanted to recommend my family and friends linux, but I simply can't because of all the inconsistencies and madnesses that will come with it.

The only "solution" to linux would be a something like a "mother" distribution (offering a standardized desktop experience with a fixed amount of standard apps, UI, libs, APIs, kernel version etc.), and from which every other linux inherits. Other distro may add their own apps additionally, but in the end, always the "mother" distribution" would be the one to recommend to the common people, and to create new software for.

In order to happen, the linuxers must come together and publicly declare a specific distribution as the "mother" distribution. There must be public announcement for that. You can't expect companies to select a distribution from the existing jungle, because every company will select something different, and thus create new problems.

If this ain't gonna happen, then linux will always stay niche.

In before the next argument: "but that's against the nature of linux, yadda yadda...".

Well then - case closed. Nothing will change.

Quote from: Hotz on May 12, 2023, 10:42:41Unfortunately the linux diversity is a huge problem. Not only is it difficult to choose a distro, but every distro has its own problems. Be it because of different UI, different kernel versions, different preinstalled apps, different libs, etc. All these things can hugely increase the error rate - and they do.
Not long ago I tried out 5 popular linux distros and each one of them had something which didn't work, but worked on the others, and vice versa. That's not the desktop experience I would like to recommend users. That's also not an attractive system for 3rd party developers. Just imagine the nightmare you'll have if you want to give support, and each distro has another cause why it fucks up the app.

It's sad. Honestly. In fact I wanted to recommend my family and friends linux, but I simply can't because of all the inconsistencies and madnesses that will come with it.

The only "solution" to linux would be a something like a "mother" distribution (offering a standardized desktop experience with a fixed amount of standard apps, UI, libs, APIs, kernel version etc.), and from which every other linux inherits. Other distro may add their own apps additionally, but in the end, always the "mother" distribution" would be the one to recommend to the common people, and to create new software for.

In order to happen, the linuxers must come together and publicly declare a specific distribution as the "mother" distribution. There must be public announcement for that. You can't expect companies to select a distribution from the existing jungle, because every company will select something different, and thus create new problems.

If this ain't gonna happen, then linux will always stay niche.

You can generally make anything work on any distribution, just a matter of how much work it is. End of the day if you want good defaults, the answer is simply "what is your goal". This is why there isn't a "mother of all" distribution.

If you are a windows user who wants a windows like experience, Linux Mint cinnemon is usually a safe bet. Linux Mint Mate if you are putting it on a really old pc and don't care for the fancy animations and stuff.

The only downside to Linux Mint is that being on LTS release, you won't get access to latest kernel out of box.

If you want more of a Mac/Chrome like interface, opt for PopOS or any Gnome DE like Fedora

If you want a powerful customization while stylish interface, any KDE release like Kubuntu or KDE Fedora

If you want bleeding edge, go for rolling release like Tumbleweed or Manjaro (not as bleeding edge as Arch but based on Arch, has more testing and more user friendly) and pick whichever DE fits your needs

You should see all the release options not as completely different but "pick your favorite default"

As for software working on all releases, there is a simple solution for this. Opt for Flatpak or lesser so appimages. Flatpaks allow for running dependencies that are outside the ones used by the operating system. Same for appimages just appimages are self contained while flatpaks will pull stuff from the internet when needed. Also distrobox which lets you run software in docker, so you can use different os software on any distribution.

Linux isn`t a distribution, it`s a kernel.

A distribution is a set of softwares running on top of a linux kernel.

You do whatever you want to do from that point.

Diversity is what makes Linux ahead of Windows.

Long time Windows user here, I recently switched to Manjaro Linux (Arch based distro) with a single purpose in mind. Doing a complete gpu passthrough and it worked, I am essentially running two operating systems on the same machine at the same time. You get the best and worst of both worlds, this maybe a little extreme for most users but there you have it. Yes you can game on Windows and yes you can use Linux for servers or whatever. I'm more surprised this method is not the common thing now. I like both worlds, so I have no complaints.

Quote from: Ringlord on July 19, 2023, 11:15:25Long time Windows user here, I recently switched to Manjaro Linux (Arch based distro) with a single purpose in mind. Doing a complete gpu passthrough and it worked, I am essentially running two operating systems on the same machine at the same time. You get the best and worst of both worlds, this maybe a little extreme for most users but there you have it. Yes you can game on Windows and yes you can use Linux for servers or whatever. I'm more surprised this method is not the common thing now. I like both worlds, so I have no complaints.

Because GPU passthrough is a recent thing to VMs, even more recent is non-dedicated access to the gpu. Probably because a lot of VM development isn't for desktop but for servers. And with AI needing GPU you see more focus on GPU. But so far no distro really making VMs first other than maybe QubesOS but that is for security and its stuck with Xen for virtualization

Some distros are looking more towards containers though for flexability and maybe more VM first distros will appear.

BTW, if you can get away with it probably less resources to run games in WINE (though not all work out of box and you may need to get dlls via winetricks or other similar software)

Most Linux vs Windows comparisons miss the basic issue. Because people don't use a operating system, they use a operating system to run applications. I don't sit around all day playing with OS settings or anything of the sort. I run applications and if a operating system can't run a certain application it is absolutely no good to me no matter how secure, fast to boot, or reliable it is. As a PC gamer myself I know for a fact Linux sucks for gaming in more ways then just lack of compatible games. But compatibility issues go way beyond just games.I do use Linux but only for a alternative device to access the web and have not ever considered it a possibility to use Linux exclusively. The solution for Linux is to find a way to run more licensed and popular applications for users who could then choose Linux as an alternative to Windows or MacOS.

Almost 40% of Ubuntu users vulnerable to new privilege elevation flaws:
www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/security/almost-40-percent-of-ubuntu-users-vulnerable-to-new-privilege-elevation-flaws/

Quote from: NikoB on July 27, 2023, 14:17:30Almost 40% of Ubuntu users vulnerable to new privilege elevation flaws:

lol, didn't you say no one checks the source? Looks like they do.

Also, note that impacts only Ubuntu 23.04, which is latest version of ubuntu, but not LTS. Latest LTS is 22.04. For anyone who doesn't know the difference like you, LTS distros are what most use, while non-LTS are bleeding edge for those who want latest features but more likely to contain bugs

In Linux, holes in the code are not fixed for decades, as in and in Windows. These are proven facts. There is no point in "auditing" the code. Moreover, A is not able to audit any code at all. Unlike me, for example, but even I, as a professional, will not do this in view of the madness of the time spent on it. ))

Quote from: NikoB on August 07, 2023, 12:50:22In Linux, holes in the code are not fixed for decades, as in and in Windows. These are proven facts. There is no point in "auditing" the code. Moreover, A is not able to audit any code at all. Unlike me, for example, but even I, as a professional, will not do this in view of the madness of the time spent on it. ))

I know you have little clue about coding based on your ridiculous claim of 40% of users being effected with the above when everyone knows that most Ubuntu users are LTS which is not effected. On top of that, the bug you linked is an overlayfs bug with newer kernel versions, which is a bug for those using containers like docker. Aka it is talking about cloud deployments that are using bleeding edge.

Of course since you know nothing about programming, you can't tell the difference. All you know is "bug"

To me, who has written hundreds of thousands of lines of the most complex code, it is simply ridiculous to read the opinion of the ignoramus A. Pug can bark at the elephant, maybe she will believe that she is strong...

Quote from: NikoB on August 08, 2023, 11:26:56To me, who has written hundreds of thousands of lines of the most complex code, it is simply ridiculous to read the opinion of the ignoramus A. Pug can bark at the elephant, maybe she will believe that she is strong...

"Most complex code" lol

The fact that you linked that link claiming 40% of ubuntu users are effected by an overlayfs issue on non-LTS version of Ubuntu says you have no clue what you are talking about. Anyone who has even basic programming knowledge would not make that kind of mistake.

Quote from: A on August 08, 2023, 23:31:22The fact that you linked that link claiming 40% of ubuntu users are effected by an overlayfs issue on non-LTS version of Ubuntu says you have no clue what you are talking about. Anyone who has even basic programming knowledge would not make that kind of mistake.

As usual amateur A writes nonsense.

Quote from: A on May 12, 2023, 21:51:36You can generally make anything work on any distribution, just a matter of how much work it is.

That's the problem. It's not worth the amount of work, if there isn't a standard linux desktop experience.

It would only be worth the amount of work, if there was a standard linux desktop experience. Because then would be a standardized way to sort out problems. But this isn't possible if everybody has a different linux distribution installed. Look at how many problems Windows 7 alone has produced, now multiply that with every linux distribution. That would be utter madness. Simply not worth the trouble for anyone but hardcore enthusiasts.

Without a standard desktop linux experience, everybody would use another distribution, which all come with their own kernel versions, package managers, UI managers, different apps, etc. - which in combination produce their own problems. What works for person A, does not work for person B. And what works for person B does not work for person A. It would be madness trying to give support for such a chaos. Consequently most companies don't want to give linux support, nor want to write software for such a chaos.

Quote from: Michel Houde on May 18, 2023, 17:00:16Linux isn`t a distribution, it`s a kernel.

A distribution is a set of softwares running on top of a linux kernel.

No s*** sherlock. Doesn't change the problems I mentioned.

QuoteDiversity is what makes Linux ahead of Windows.

Only for servers and industrial purposes, but not as a desktop user experience.

Quote from: Hotz on August 11, 2023, 11:38:21That's the problem. It's not worth the amount of work, if there isn't a standard linux desktop experience.

It would only be worth the amount of work, if there was a standard linux desktop experience. Because then would be a standardized way to sort out problems. But this isn't possible if everybody has a different linux distribution installed. Look at how many problems Windows 7 alone has produced, now multiply that with every linux distribution. That would be utter madness. Simply not worth the trouble for anyone but hardcore enthusiasts.

Without a standard desktop linux experience, everybody would use another distribution, which all come with their own kernel versions, package managers, UI managers, different apps, etc. - which in combination produce their own problems. What works for person A, does not work for person B. And what works for person B does not work for person A. It would be madness trying to give support for such a chaos. Consequently most companies don't want to give linux support, nor want to write software for such a chaos.

On the backend it is all the same, kernel version doesn't really matter much unless you are on latest hardware, otherwise it would be rare for kernel to be a problem. For package managers, there are mostly the big 2, DNF/YUM or APT. But most regular users will never touch them as they all come with GUI ones.

The only big difference for most users is the UI, and just go with whatever fits your needs. If you want to recommend to new users, you can't go wrong with Linux Mint (Cinnamon for new pcs, Mate for old)

As for giving support, no one does that. Most OEMs that do offer linux generally stick to 1 distro.

For writing software, there is no reason to support all kinds of distros, appimage, flatpak and distrobox are a thing you know? With that, you don't need to worry about what linux version they have, as long as you bundle your dependencies, they will just work

Again, stupid demagogy from amateur A. Which, moreover, is completely refuted by the share of Linux among users outside the server market. It is negligible and has practically not grown in 25 years. And it will never grow with the mess that is going on there, as well as the incredible complexity of setting up and a bunch of glitches that no one has fixed at all and will not fix.

As one of the users correctly wrote recently - even getting hardware acceleration in browsers and a bunch of other things to work normally there is a non-trivial task (often impossible) even for an IT professional, not to mention an ordinary user who gets all this in Windows with a couple of clicks.

Quote from: NikoB on August 14, 2023, 14:24:56Again, stupid demagogy from amateur A. Which, moreover, is completely refuted by the share of Linux among users outside the server market. It is negligible and has practically not grown in 25 years. And it will never grow with the mess that is going on there, as well as the incredible complexity of setting up and a bunch of glitches that no one has fixed at all and will not fix.

As one of the users correctly wrote recently - even getting hardware acceleration in browsers and a bunch of other things to work normally there is a non-trivial task (often impossible) even for an IT professional, not to mention an ordinary user who gets all this in Windows with a couple of clicks.

Again your clueless statements despite being proven wrong time and time again. Outside server marketshare is Android which runs linux and has way more users than Windows does. The only place windows has dominance is the "Desktop" category, that is all, every other category from routers, mobile, car infotainment, smart devices and etc, Linux/*nix dominate.

There is no problem getting hardware acceleration working on linux, on most distros it works out of box

You have just confirmed the title of inveterate demagogue. Android is not a work environment, it's entertainment and content consumption.
Windows is a working environment. In the desktop environment market, Linux shamefully sits in the corner with its miserable 1-2% for 25 years. And this is fair.

And in browsers under Linux, as the author of this article convincingly proved (which I personally encountered when trying to use Ubuntu LTS), practically nothing and nothing works, including hardware acceleration. And to fill up the system in normal user mode to an unbootable state is as easy as shelling pears. Try doing the same trick with Windows.

Quote from: NikoB on August 14, 2023, 23:19:33You have just confirmed the title of inveterate demagogue. Android is not a work environment, it's entertainment and content consumption.
Windows is a working environment. In the desktop environment market, Linux shamefully sits in the corner with its miserable 1-2% for 25 years. And this is fair.

And in browsers under Linux, as the author of this article convincingly proved (which I personally encountered when trying to use Ubuntu LTS), practically nothing and nothing works, including hardware acceleration. And to fill up the system in normal user mode to an unbootable state is as easy as shelling pears. Try doing the same trick with Windows.

Who are you to decide what is a work environment and what isn't?

In the first place, most of the "work environment" has moved to the cloud. Much of it powered by linux.

Though not sure why work environment even matters since who decided that is what the discussion is about?

Linux does not sit at 1-2% of desktop, its at 3% now. Add another 3% from ChromeOS which also runs linux at its at over 6%. If you count all *nix operating systems, OSX has 20% so total for all *nix systems is 26%. Though the number may be higher because many linux users make their useragent windows for privacy reasons

I had no problems with hardware acceleration on linux. The only thing I can think of is you didn't load the store chrome and opted for the download and didn't pass the parameter to enable it. Or you tested years ago

As usual, A is completely nonsense, about some 26%, although an elementary search for statistics clearly says that all Linux desktop versions (open-source) do not even occupy 3% of the total share of desktop OS.

Smoke less, A. Your demagoguery and lies are already tiring everyone.

Niko, as usual, flexing his inability to read and understand what was written despite being written so clearly and easily to understand for anyone with a functional brain. Simply lovely to read 😂

Let me help you my poor disabled friend:

Quote from: A on August 17, 2023, 07:55:26Linux does not sit at 1-2% of desktop, its at 3% now. Add another 3% from ChromeOS which also runs linux at its at over 6%. If you count all *nix operating systems, OSX has 20% so total for all *nix systems is 26%.

Edit:

Quote from: NikoB on August 20, 2023, 11:49:08...although an elementary search for statistics clearly says that all Linux desktop versions (open-source) do not even occupy 3% of the total share of desktop OS.

As usual, fake "data", trolling and spam coming from you.

https://imgur.com/zsuPGFW

https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/desktop/worldwide/