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This is really baffling to me, the best in class keyboard has always been a strong point for Thinkpads. I wanted to buy the X1 carbon but the low travel made me reconsider and wait for a X1 Extreme Gen4...but there is no point now.

I will have to look at Asus laptops or some gaming laptop. Of course I write a lot, other people might not be bothered so much by this but for us...think about it, the X1 nano has 1,3mm travel and flat keys. Why on earth would anyone buy an X1 now instead of let's say a Macbook or a Dell Xps?

In a few more generations their market share will dwindle and they won't understand why...

Lenovo is delusional. Notebookcheck, please make a laptops with best keyboard top list.

I have to agree with the article.

I have a Thinkpad X1 Yoga G3.  Why would I "upgrade" to the latest G6?  OK, they have moved to a 16:10 screen, which has a slightly higher resolution, but they have made it worse in so many ways:
- keyboard is worse
- no longer has a retractable keyboard
- microSD card slot has been removed
- dedicated network port has been removed

It's still the same weight and pretty much the same battery size.  So, it's all to shave off a few mms from the size.  Why?  Does that really matter?  So, there's no point in downgrading from a G3 to the latest G6.

Dell do exactly the same thing.  Their XPS machines used to be great - now even their XPS15 has lost all ports except USB-C and has a poor keyboard.  Again, just to shave off a few mm from the size.

It would be great if these companies didn't just blindly follow trends.  Lenovo have reversed bad decisions in the past - remember their terrible touch bar that replaced the function keys in the G2 Carbon?  Maybe they will see sense again.

Agreed.
An amazing keyboard is what ThinkPads are known for.
By taking that away they will almost certainly lose customers.

Although I have to wonder whether the majority of ThinkPad enthusiasts just buy the T490 series anyway...

Lenovo's multiple product lines & legacy sub brands need to be rationalised & radically slimmed down. It's pretty much impossible to get the Lenovo laptop that best suits your needs. Even if you can find it amongst their many product lines (by evading their crude attempts to corral you into the wrong product segment on their websites) you won't be able to order the SKU with the spec that you want in your market. They are on the road to failure.

There might be hope if enough people make some noise about the keyboards.  I remember when the T series went with a buttonless trackpad.  It took a while be we got two of the mouse buttons back.

It's such a shame because this article is quite frankly, long overdue, and now most relevant since Lenovo has crossed the ultimate "Tipping Point". I remember getting my X1Y2 with the whole retracting keyboard and OLED screen, and thinking "this, THIS is innovation". That was the last Thinkpad I used long term, the ones after were all disappointing.

They slowly took away a few ports, reduced the battery sizes without visibly reducing weight, soldered down more components, removed hot-swappable batteries, introduced even more keyboard and panel lottery, and made the materials "feel" even less durable than before. Not just the X1, but the whole X, T, P, and L series.

To be honest I'm fine with that, since I feel like other brands have caught up to Lenovo's quality and can offer good quality at better price.

The best Keyboard was the ONLY reason people bought the X1s over other thin/light ultrabooks. So why would anyone even bother getting a X1 now, when it has the same mediocre keyboard as 20 other laptops, while being worse in every other department, and twice as expensive???

I agree with the article. Lenovo has made the laptops worse over the years. Take keyboards for example. X1 extreme gen2 had a keyboard that misses keystrokes and that issue was somewhat fixed with a bios update but it was not fully fixed, they just made it bearable. On P1 series, gen3 still misses keystrokes from time to time, though not at the extent of x1 extreme gen2, and we no longer have a dedicated ethernet port, which is a bummer. Further, even on docking stations, they have a max speed of 1Gbps ethernet. In order to get 10Gbps ethernet you need to buy other brands. Then there is a question of what can be selected in the configuration. Smart card reader is no longer available on P1 gen3.

Lenovo, if you are reading this, we do not need thinner laptops in the P series, we need more features, and keyboards that do not miss keystrokes. Also, we need to be able to upgrade to LTE/5G connectivity on ALL screen combinations. Ethernet should be standard on all P series laptops, and on X1 extreme. For those that want thin and light, there is nano. Keep nano thin, and make P1 thicker and beef up the cooling. Throttling is annoying. Put bigger fans. Put bigger radiators. Make P1 thicker with better cooling.

The 6th gen is still the best in the series. No reason to move from it yet...

I agree.  It's the equivalent of being slowly boiled alive... I have had a new thinkpad every 2 years for at least the last 20 years and the incremental degradation and decline is hard to notice each time I upgrade but the long term arc is not good.  Unfortunately, changing to another laptop brand would be even worse in the short term and it's not like any other brand is getting better so long term you would still have an issue.

This.
I am a keyboard junky. Buckling Springs or Cherry MX Browns and Blues for all my keyboards. I'm up to my 5th Lenovo laptop now over 16 years, mostly because of their keyboards. If they compromise those, what differentiates them any more?
Speaking of slipping quality, I'm also tired of the IPS panel lottery (as a photographer and graphics dabbler) and can't understand why you can't specify a particular model and specs when custom ordering, which I did for my last 2 purchases. Charge me $15 more or something to get the one with good sRGB and nits and let's move on. But if I'm losing my precious keyboards, I may finally start considering other brands again.

Don't forget another HUGE downgrade: no matte WQHD display option. Only FHD or UHD (glossy).

So, worse keyboard, worse displays. Way to get rid of the only two things that made the X1 Carbon a great laptop. Hard pass.

I almost bought a new Thinkpad last year but the reviews made me decide against it.  They aren't focusing on a niche market anymore.  It's like they want all of their laptops to compete directly with the MacBook.  We didn't buy the Thinkpad for it's aesthetic, but that's what they are going for.

I had an IdeaPad a few years ago, that thing fell apart and I took good care of it.  Other coworkers had the same problems.  From what I read, the Thinkpad has the same construction problems.

Can we get a laptop that is a workhorse again?

Thanks, will hang onto my x1 g6 with gen8 Intel CPU longer

Here I was thinking I'll upgrade to the new g9

I purchased a Thinkpad x1 yoga from Costco and returned it because they have eliminated one finger scrolling.  My 4 1/2 year old one has one finger scrolling and  I love the feature.  I tried to adapt to the two finger scrolling and found I was jumping all over the place if I did not strictly move up and down the pad.  With one finger scrolling there is only option of moving up and down--much simpler.  I will purchase an older version of the Thinkpad to get one finger scrolling.  Simple downgrade by Lenovo but meaningful for me.   

I don't understand why it must be this way, they already have the ultraportable X1 Nano that set out to do the job the X1C1 attempted in 2012. The X1C9 should essentially be the next tier in quality, more room means better speakers and more room for a spacious keyboard. I like the idea of combining two smaller fans to compensate for a tinier heatsink, which worked well, but everything else is a compromise. You now have different colors of laptops, with accompanying tastes. However it used to be simply a flavor of laptops, Lenovo was set apart because of the keyboard and how intuitive it was to have the trackpoint, now those trademarks are too thick to fit into anything apparently. 

Same here. Keyboard, screen and no wwan. So silly. Been with them for 25 years.....and

I don't understand why people want 16:10. It's a con in my books, because more content is created in 16:9. I like to consume media between productivity.

If it's higher resolution you want, why not just go for 1440p or 4k?
Aspect ratio in itself doesn't give you more resolution. It's just the shape of the screen.

Quote from: gerger on May 24, 2021, 08:27:52
I don't understand why people want 16:10. It's a con in my books, because more content is created in 16:9. I like to consume media between productivity.

If it's higher resolution you want, why not just go for 1440p or 4k?
Aspect ratio in itself doesn't give you more resolution. It's just the shape of the screen.

The tip-top content creators mostly prefer MacBooks and iMacs as their daily drivers. Those computer *never* came with a 16:9 screen, but rather 16:10. To be clear, the people whose livelihood literally depends on working with 16:9 content all day are more than fine with the 16:10 screens -- what exactly are you doing that is more demanding than that?

Resolution is only one parameter of the many that make a good screen. If you cared to dig a little deeper into the subject, you'd have realized there are different color gamuts, brightness, pixel arrangements, and panel suppliers into the mix. Thinkpads aren't your average consumer laptop brand where you can assume stuff about your screen and still be fine. You have to be in the know about what you are getting to not get screwed over with an inferior panel that "looks good on the spec sheet" -- and that is just wrong by today's standards.

Let's include the bizarre throttling behavior when the X1C Gen 9 is under load (CPU, eGPU) while plugged in.

Details are outlined here: forums.lenovo.com/t5/ThinkPad-X-Series-Laptops/Lenovo-X1-Carbon-Gen-9-Throttling-Issues/m-p/5073083?page=1

It seems it doesn't matter what is being run. This behavior manifests with light gaming, video capture, even video chatting.

Lenovo says a BIOS/ECFW fix is incoming, but there is no timeline yet.

Quote from: gerger on May 24, 2021, 08:27:52
I don't understand why people want 16:10. It's a con in my books, because more content is created in 16:9. I like to consume media between productivity.

If it's higher resolution you want, why not just go for 1440p or 4k?
Aspect ratio in itself doesn't give you more resolution. It's just the shape of the screen.

There are too many 16:9 laptops even today. To find a laptop with more vertical space for things like programming, data analytics, document creation is just hard. On the other hand, to watch movies or other "content", you can get a cheap 16:9 laptop from Acer that does just that. It is about choice of having machines dedicated to productivity instead of media consumption, because prior to recent comeback of 16:10 laptops, all we had were media consumption-optimized laptops in 16:9.

Personally, I prefer 3:2. If I absolutely need to watch something in widescreen, I don't value entertainment as much as productivity on my productivity laptop. Save that for the "multimedia" laptops.

I agree with this article as well and have voiced my opinion about this multiple times on this site. One of Lenovo's main selling point over other brands has always their keyboard and TrackPoint, and they've progressively made these worse and worse so they're not all that much better than the competition. They are still better, which is why I went with a ThinkPad recently over other, frankly, better options, and I often find myself regretting it because of all the problems with it, but I do love the TrackPoint and have a hard time using a laptop without one. But many people aren't going to be willing to put up with all the quality issues for a slightly better usability experience, and even I have decided that this will most likely be my last Lenovo, especially since, at the rate they're going, even the keyboard won't be a draw anymore once I'm looking to upgrade again.

They're trying to draw people in by having slimmer, "sexier" models, hoping to entice consumers that would otherwise get something else without even considering Lenovo's, due to the other brands' extreme thinness. But those types of people are still generally going to go with those other brands, because people like that don't really care about much else, and Lenovo really doesn't have anything else to set itself apart and convince those people to choose them over other brands. Meanwhile, they're just driving away those people that actually prefer Lenovo for what it does, or did, have to offer that is/was unique. So they're losing customers in an ultimately vain attempt to gain others. They need to keep that crap to the IdeaPad line and leave ThinkPads alone. I'd much rather my T14s be 1-2mm thicker if it meant I could have an ethernet port and better battery life and better/quieter cooling (both of which are terrible), not to mention more storage and non-soldered RAM.

Quote from: gerger on May 24, 2021, 08:27:52
I don't understand why people want 16:10. It's a con in my books, because more content is created in 16:9. I like to consume media between productivity.

If it's higher resolution you want, why not just go for 1440p or 4k?
Aspect ratio in itself doesn't give you more resolution. It's just the shape of the screen.

It's ultimately personal preference, and you should just go with what you prefer. Or at least ideally, but until recently, very few laptops even had the option. Look at it like this: you can always watch a 16:9 movie on a 16:10 or even 3:2 screen, but working with a spreadsheet or a browser with multiple rows of tabs on a 16:9 screen will provide much less real estate for working than on a 16:10 or 3:2 screen, which offers more vertical space. Again, though, it really just depends on what kind of work you do and how you use your computer overall. I do a mix of stuff, and don't really have a strong preference.

I've used both 16:9 and 3:2 extensively, and both work well, obviously each is better for some things than the other, so for me it's a wash and I'm fine either way. A 16:10 would probably be ideal for me because of that. But with 16:9 I do often find myself wishing for more vertical space. If you never do, then you don't really have a need for it and that's just how you use your computer. It's also less important with larger screens, i.e. desktop monitors, since there's just much more space in general.

It also depends on how they compare in size. For example, given the choice between a 16:9 and 16:10 or 3:2 screen in the same chassis, where they're all the same width, I'll always take 3:2 > 16:10 > 16:9, because if I can get more height without losing out on any width, and just have thinner top and bottom bezels instead of the ~1" and 1.5" ones on my T14s, then why not take more screen space? But if the diagonal is the same, so I'm gaining vertical space at the expense of horizontal, it's a tougher decision. So I would have definitely preferred the T14s to make better use of the size of the lid and include a 16:10 or 3:2 and have 0.5" (or less) bezels on the top and bottom, but I probably wouldn't want the top and bottom bezels slightly smaller to make the screen a little taller but then have the screen a little narrower, so the end result is a taller screen with the same diagonal size, because even though it would be better for some things, the loss of that horizontal size would be significant. And since most laptops, due to the space required for the keyboard and trackpad, have a more square shape, i.e. closer to 3:2 or 16:10 than 16:9, it just makes sense to use the most of the available lid space and fill it up as much as possible with display. Hopefully that helps you understand people's preference for it.

I appreciate this article for calling out on Lenovo on its deteriorating keyboard quality on the mentioned lineup. As a regular Notebookcheck reader and a ThinkPad owner (W530, T470p), I highly value what Notebookcheck has to say on the keyboard quality of the laptops they are reviewing. If Lenovo doesn't listen to institution-level review sites such as Notebookcheck, I will happily consider other brand of laptops that Notebookcheck will give a high keyboard rating.

Important and poignant article. The trajectory is clear: form over function. Lenovo has forgotten why the ThinkPad lineup exists.

Important, poignant article. I hope Lenovo execs take notice. ThinkPad was created as a utilitarian machine where form = function. Form > function is the Apple ethos and Lenovo appears to have copied this ethos without understanding it, therefore the ThinkPad fails to achieve what Apple has achieved while simultaneously failing to do what is was created to do.

Quote from: Dorby on May 23, 2021, 16:55:09
The best Keyboard was the ONLY reason people bought the X1s over other thin/light ultrabooks. So why would anyone even bother getting a X1 now, when it has the same mediocre keyboard as 20 other laptops, while being worse in every other department, and twice as expensive???

Because both the sellers and major buyers of Thinkpad seem to think that it's some sort of status symbol. Executive paraphernalia. People who do real work with it are a minority. Perfectionist nerds on the Internet.

Quote from: Dorby on May 23, 2021, 16:55:09

3.  A $899 MacBook Air (with 'student' discount) doesn't need an explanation when put up against a $1,500 X1 Carbon.
Don't need Touch, 2-in-1, or Gaming? Then I just tell people to try MacOS, and run Parallels on the MBA for few exclusive Windows programs, because honestly it does the job better than the X1 Carbon, and offers better use-experience while at it. Apple's scissor switches are good too.

You weren't going so bad until.... I rolled my eyes at this last part because it just exposes yourself as ignorant & ranting. Telling people to "try" MacOS with all the usual excuses of "if you don't need this don't need that" is just pathetic. I have no issues with you comparing Thinkpads with other PC laptops that are similarly specced, but it is just irresponsible crap advice to recommend Macs. If you don't need "Touch, 2-in-1, or Gaming" then just get a low end entry level or 2nd hand PC laptop and you will have saved a ton of money, the environment and gotten yourself a way better deal.

Telling students to buy a crapware crApple AND then to pay for a Windows license on top just to do basic "don't need everything" stuff like (probably) Facebooking, Twittering & word processing is just such a cliche tired crap.

Quote from: Anonym on May 24, 2021, 10:58:48

Quote from: gerger on May 24, 2021, 08:27:52
I don't understand why people want 16:10. It's a con in my books, because more content is created in 16:9. I like to consume media between productivity.

If it's higher resolution you want, why not just go for 1440p or 4k?
Aspect ratio in itself doesn't give you more resolution. It's just the shape of the screen.

The tip-top content creators mostly prefer MacBooks and iMacs as their daily drivers.

Switched off at that immediately. If you are not a tip top content creator, shut up and seriously don't spout rubbish about content creators. The top content creators use PCs & laptops on Windows. Ask any AUTOCAD engineering firm, film maker, Hollywood industry video special effects people etc. and its all AMD Ryzens & Nvidia GPUs. Its always the ignorant wannabes and struggling photographers who want to pretend to be cool who use Macs, usually ageing 5 year old ones that they scrapped from some 2nd hand scrap yard.

Quote from: Astar on June 08, 2021, 10:51:07
Switched off at that immediately. If you are not a tip top content creator, shut up and seriously don't spout rubbish about content creators. The top content creators use PCs & laptops on Windows. Ask any AUTOCAD engineering firm, film maker, Hollywood industry video special effects people etc. and its all AMD Ryzens & Nvidia GPUs. Its always the ignorant wannabes and struggling photographers who want to pretend to be cool who use Macs, usually ageing 5 year old ones that they scrapped from some 2nd hand scrap yard.

Not sure how you'd know what all these different professions use, considering you sound like you're 20 at best. Two posts in a row where you act like this. And you're clearly a "tip top content creator" by your own words, so not sure how you know so much about engineering firms and what they use, but whatever. Even assuming you're right, which I have my doubts about, there are better ways to point out errors in other people's statements. If you "switched off...immediately" at reading something you perceive as wrong, just how fast do you think they, and others, are going to stop reading your angry BS. You can educate and inform others without acting like they're all idiots and you're the smartest person in the world and, believe me, you're not even close.

As for your claims, a few things to consider: a Windows license isn't required to use W10, and one could easily use a free copy to run a small handful of programs they couldn't run on Mac; I'm personally a Windows user vs Mac, with some Linux experience, and I often, especially lately, consider switching because some weeks I spend more time fixing Windows than using it, and just about every other day, sometimes every day, something breaks (within one week of reinstalling I had to reboot twice to fix stuff that just stopped working correctly); while many creators may use PCs, many do also use Macs (I have a friend that learned Avid in school and has used it in his professional career, but he also used Macs in school and uses one personally, which he also uses for work stuff, and it's not because he wants to "pretend to be cool").

So breathe and maybe consider why you feel the need to be such an *** toward people just because they don't agree with you or don't know or understand something, and that they are much more likely to engage and listen if you explain things rather than insult them right out of the gate. And yes, I realize I did that to you, to prove a point and so you can see what it's like.

Meh. This article comes way too late.

Lenovo has murdered the Thinkpad brand in 2012. And certainly, no keyboard after the *20 generation has ever been of note.

i've been a long-term thinkpad (T530, X1 carbon 2016, 17) user. just bought x1 carbon 2021 for work and realized in shock that they changed the keyboard. while i was frantically searching which model has the "old" (i.e. x1 carbon around 2016/17) keyboard, i found this article which says x1 extreme gen 3 is the last one. ordered one and the keyboard is honestly no better. when i'm typing i frequently miss keys - it's just a weird feeling. absoluely devastated - what is lenovo doing? what's the point of buying thinkpads now?

the author also says that this keyboard is still better than most ultrabook keyboards, but i really don't know how much worse it can be than this. it feels like typing on a macbook in my opinion. very shallow travel. moreover, the trackpad has a weird, slippery texture, which makes it hard to use as well. so i disabled it and just use the trackpoint.

anyway, just a heads-up for people who thought x1 extreme is better. no it's not, at least not where i'm from.

Quote from: jackie on October 05, 2021, 15:49:42i've been a long-term thinkpad (T530, X1 carbon 2016, 17) user. just bought x1 carbon 2021 for work and realized in shock that they changed the keyboard. while i was frantically searching which model has the "old" (i.e. x1 carbon around 2016/17) keyboard, i found this article which says x1 extreme gen 3 is the last one. ordered one and the keyboard is honestly no better. when i'm typing i frequently miss keys - it's just a weird feeling. absoluely devastated - what is lenovo doing? what's the point of buying thinkpads now?

the author also says that this keyboard is still better than most ultrabook keyboards, but i really don't know how much worse it can be than this. it feels like typing on a macbook in my opinion. very shallow travel. moreover, the trackpad has a weird, slippery texture, which makes it hard to use as well. so i disabled it and just use the trackpoint.

anyway, just a heads-up for people who thought x1 extreme is better. no it's not, at least not where i'm from.

exactly... shocked and devasted is how I feel...  Still suffering daily when I open this laptop. I want my old ThinkPad feeling back