What will happen when the internal SSD inevitably dies? We're not so sure. Whereas the primary drives in the PS3 and PS4 could all be easily replaced, the fixed SSD in the PS5 could be an issue far into the lifespan of the system.
https://www.notebookcheck.net/Playstation-5-soldered-825-GB-SSD-puts-a-hard-limit-on-the-lifespan-of-each-retail-unit.497370.0.html
SSDs never die, this will never be an issue. The first SSDs, long time ago, had a shorter life, but the modern ones last decades with normal usage! The CPU in PS5, and especially its liquid metal paste are more likely to fail earlier than the SSD.
The regular HDs don't last long on the other hand. Almost every portable USB HD I've ever owned (started from 20 GB to 2 TB) have died eventually, with below average usage.
Quote from: splus on October 09, 2020, 05:37:52
SSDs never die, this will never be an issue. The first SSDs, long time ago, had a shorter life, but the modern ones last decades with normal usage! The CPU in PS5, and especially its liquid metal paste are more likely to fail earlier than the SSD.
The regular HDs don't last long on the other hand. Almost every portable USB HD I've ever owned (started from 20 GB to 2 TB) have died eventually, with below average usage.
I have a lot of HDDs from Seagate, 1x 3TB 3.5", 2x 5 TB 2.5" on a NAS, 1x 3 TB 2.5" and 1x 2 TB 2.5" and zero issues now and with old ones (several in laptops from 320 up to 500 GB) also no issues. The only ones that went south were hdd from the 40 - 80 GB era...
On the ps5 though, most data on games will be saved one time + updates. What could damage the ssd are the "fast resumes " which will save constantly the ram on the ssd.
If those are only one-time writes then it will be fine, but the OS will do constant operations and if you want to move games between the main and other drives that can use up the ssd endurance. There os also the matter or a simple failure which will require a new motherboard entirely so an out-of-warranty repair may be very expensive.
To me this is a deal breaker as the disc drive should always be replaceable as that is one of the first things to die, especially when the warranty period is over and you are left with a big living room decoration (if it can be called that). A mitigation would be the ability to replace it with an external drive.
Quote from: Mmick on October 09, 2020, 08:01:57
Quote from: splus on October 09, 2020, 05:37:52
SSDs never die, this will never be an issue. The first SSDs, long time ago, had a shorter life, but the modern ones last decades with normal usage! The CPU in PS5, and especially its liquid metal paste are more likely to fail earlier than the SSD.
The regular HDs don't last long on the other hand. Almost every portable USB HD I've ever owned (started from 20 GB to 2 TB) have died eventually, with below average usage.
I have a lot of HDDs from Seagate, 1x 3TB 3.5", 2x 5 TB 2.5" on a NAS, 1x 3 TB 2.5" and 1x 2 TB 2.5" and zero issues now and with old ones (several in laptops from 320 up to 500 GB) also no issues. The only ones that went south were hdd from the 40 - 80 GB era...
On the ps5 though, most data on games will be saved one time + updates. What could damage the ssd are the "fast resumes " which will save constantly the ram on the ssd.
I have had a few HDDs of my own and frankly the Seagate ones were the worst and most of them failed miserably or had issues in accessing data after ~3 years of use.
On the contrary I have 6+ years ssds that are still top notch and in those 6 years i have written about 40TB of data, so 600TB of data with new ssds is PLENTY enough for 10 years+ of usage.
I like when a random journalist that hasn't got a clue about software/hardware makes an educated guess article and thinks he discovered something that Sony engineers didn't think of.
I find it strange (even ironic) that a website specialized in laptop reviews has missed years of opportunities to write such a piece about any modern Macbook Pro or the few other laptops that do the exact same thing.
If it's not a concern for the machines where we do our precious work, why is it suddenly so important for gaming consoles? NBC is going down the drain with all these opinion pieces that are not labeled as such, nor should be such an highlight in the main page.
Import tax ruins al price.
Apparently ps5 is using dram cache, which actually extends the usability of ssd:
@ant_uk15 - cant provide link here...
Extending is one thing but providing an alternative whould be much better as eventually it will die.
Quote from: Anonym on October 09, 2020, 09:58:03
I find it strange (even ironic) that a website specialized in laptop reviews has missed years of opportunities to write such a piece about any modern Macbook Pro or the few other laptops that do the exact same thing.
If it's not a concern for the machines where we do our precious work, why is it suddenly so important for gaming consoles? NBC is going down the drain with all these opinion pieces that are not labeled as such, nor should be such an highlight in the main page.
I think Notebookcheck is great to point out these flaws such as soldered SSDs but yes I agree they should point them out for MacBook/Crapbooks too. In those reviews, the cons pointed out in PC laptops are omitted often.
Sony should put information of the ssd wear level in the software, just like the ssd status samsung magician.
Uhh solder in a new one if the problem arises.
The PS3 had soldered nand flash as well, it's known to fail on occasion but this isn't new, just new for system storage.
It is not true, the device has a m2 ssd slot which is empty. You can increase the storage capacity anytime.
The way the test ssds gives a very inaccurate perception of their longevity. There isn't currently a better way, but most ssds far out-live their expected write count.
They tend to test them by repeatedly writing until they fail. That's an inaccurate representation of actual useage. You're not going to continually write and rewrite 600tb of data on an ssd in a single sitting. This tends to produce excess heat which is typically what kills electronics in general. Worst case data at least tends to be useful though.
The spacing of the memory modules and controller is far greater than you'd tend to see on a typical m.2. This should allow for more stable thermals even under periods of extended writing.
As someone who uses liquid metal, I'd be far more worried about its long term application. Typically you'll see a galvanic reaction with copper and nickel. You'll see the hard metal seeming to absorb the liquid and leave behind a stain and crusty residue the first couple of applications. Which means the liquid metal can have a very short life span of a few months to a year initially. I'm a fan of how they decided to prevent it from bleeding, but nothing was said about what was done to extend its usefullness past a year, let alone 6-7 years. And few people are comfortable applying it themselves, for a good reason.
Quote from: Can on October 10, 2020, 06:19:22
It is not true, the device has a m2 ssd slot which is empty. You can increase the storage capacity anytime.
Currdntly no extrnal drives are compataible to play PS5 games directly from the drive.
They using different drives than PS4. Though those external devices will let you play PS4 games from it
This makes me wonder how they plan to handle "twitch" and YouTube recordings? A good example is nvidias software that runs like a DVR while your gaming, writing and rewriting a 20-100gb section of drive so you can always have the ability to save a video clip from the past 10-30 minutes depending on settings. Most PC gamers are warned *not* to enable this feature on an SSD and to use it on your HDD instead. If you leave a game running and it constantly runs that DVR feature at 1GB per minute then if you leave it idling over night (12 hours) thats 720gb of wear on the drive in 1 12 hour episode. Do that another 599 times (do able in a year) and you could easily grind that SSD into the dust. The soldiered to the board was a bad plan imo. They shod have used a standard plug interface or even a proprietary 8xpcie plug if they needed the bandwidth, just as long as its a *plug*.
We will see i guess.
Well, it's complicated. Once I had a ps3 die on me because one of the internal memory modules died. The PS3 had a few gigs of internal rom to store part of the OS, as the OS grew with each release, part of the HDD was used as well. Maybe it should be a modular part that can be easily replaced.
Just learn how to micro solder and then you will do much better in life anyway. Then you can repair almost any piece of technology you have.
I don't think its something we should worry about i have an ssd from the sandy bridge days and its lifespan is still in the 80's and it was an os drive for awhile now its used to play one games.
Quote from: sadsadas on October 09, 2020, 09:08:17
I have a lot of HDDs from Seagate, 1x 3TB 3.5", 2x 5 TB 2
I have had a few HDDs of my own and frankly the Seagate ones were the worst and most of them failed miserably or had issues in accessing data after ~3 years of use.
I just wanted to comment that I still do not trust seagate to this day. many failed drives. many lost memories.
This article is dumb and redundant
😕 ??? It's the year 2020, we aren't in the year 2000.
If you know anything about computers. then you would know this fact already. most of the time if a SSD drive goes bad on you. Most of the time you can still retrieve the files.
Also seeing how they are pushing for more digital downloads sony should be offering full system back up through the cloud. This way everyone info will be safe and saved. So this issue won't be a problem going forward to PS6.
I'm sure Sony has thought this through. This just seems to be more of a scare tactic that people pull when ever there is a new system coming out. Places like gamestop fear all digital games because that means they will be out of business. Then you have the haters of playstaton, people looking to sell new system at a mark up for profits and the people mad they didn't one. Just consider that before you listen to people. 😝
I'm sure when it comes to right to repair they'll be fights but if they didn't do it like I've seen in the apple videos (everything encrypted and tied to everything on the board) the right person should be able to mess with but I'm hoping you can change which is the primary drive and iqnore the built in.
I was more worried when I've seen some of the xbox demoa where they are always installing the back memory expansion card. The xbox could get interesting if it had no internal and it was all on that external card [possible arrg?].
Sony and PlayStation have for years been giving us the middle finger. They go to great lengths the screw us over, yet the PlayStation simps will continue throwing money at them which allows them to keep doing it....
I'd be curious if they could implement a firmware update that checks for a boot OS on the secondary M.2 SSD in the event of failure of the primary drive.
Quote from: J on October 10, 2020, 18:26:21
Sony and PlayStation have for years been giving us the middle finger. They go to great lengths the screw us over, yet the PlayStation simps will continue throwing money at them which allows them to keep doing it....
How about Microsoft and the red ring of death? Or their try at the anti consumer policy's on Xbox One?
What about Nintendo and their over charging peripherals and the drifting joycons which they are still denying? And how they are constantly shutting down the community by taking down YouTube videos, fangames and tournaments?
The 825 NVMe is the SSD and can be upgraded , but I find think it will need to be . I am a mid range computer builder . The new NVMe SSD helps make the PS5 100 times faster . The last time I looked the loading time for games was going to be .85 of a second .
I dont know why people are freaking out. Every single system from ps1 to ps4 has never died on me or needed a single peice to be replaced. Minus controllers (looking at you orphan of kos). I'm eager to get my hands on the new system and im waiting impatienly for God of War 2. Let the ps5 era begin.
Quote from: Dumbpplikeyou on October 10, 2020, 19:56:06
Quote from: J on October 10, 2020, 18:26:21
Sony and PlayStation have for years been giving us the middle finger. They go to great lengths the screw us over, yet the PlayStation simps will continue throwing money at them which allows them to keep doing it....
How about Microsoft and the red ring of death? Or their try at the anti consumer policy's on Xbox One?
What about Nintendo and their over charging peripherals and the drifting joycons which they are still denying? And how they are constantly shutting down the community by taking down YouTube videos, fangames and tournaments?
Whataboutism
So just a thought here if can take your example here of the 1tb has a life span of 600tb, and I going to guess the life years of a ps5 is 5 years but we all know it will be longer, let's do the same of will the ps5 sad we can assume 5gb for saved data cause every game has to use save data, but I filled my 2 TB hard drive well within the first year of owning a PS4, I can not only thing the hard drive to be it's major flaw cause well after one normally fills a hard drive we just make enough room for the next game so I see the SSD failing quick once year one is up unless you can get a usb harddrive and can deal with the slow loadspeeds
This is nonsense hysteria. I have several 120GB intel SSDs that are still going strong that are over 10 years old.
They've been reformatted and filled and emptied more times than I can count. Only SSDs I've ever seen fail where the gen1 OCZs that had serious controller faults and general instability. Any name brand SSD made in the last year will outlive you unless it's being used in a data center for heavy database usage. It's more likely the CPU or motherboard will fail prior to the SSD. No one is going to empty and refill an 800GB SSD a thousand plus times even over the course of 10 years on a PS5.
Quote from: Nytebyrd on October 10, 2020, 07:54:08
The way the test ssds gives a very inaccurate perception of their longevity. There isn't currently a better way, but most ssds far out-live their expected write count.
They tend to test them by repeatedly writing until they fail. That's an inaccurate representation of actual useage. You're not going to continually write and rewrite 600tb of data on an ssd in a single sitting. This tends to produce excess heat which is typically what kills electronics in general. Worst case data at least tends to be useful though.
The spacing of the memory modules and controller is far greater than you'd tend to see on a typical m.2. This should allow for more stable thermals even under periods of extended writing.
As someone who uses liquid metal, I'd be far more worried about its long term application. Typically you'll see a galvanic reaction with copper and nickel. You'll see the hard metal seeming to absorb the liquid and leave behind a stain and crusty residue the first couple of applications. Which means the liquid metal can have a very short life span of a few months to a year initially. I'm a fan of how they decided to prevent it from bleeding, but nothing was said about what was done to extend its usefullness past a year, let alone 6-7 years. And few people are comfortable applying it themselves, for a good reason.
Finally, someone who actually knows what they hell they are talking about. People don't understand that MTTF means that, the mean time between failure in the most extreme cases. People also forget that the controllers on even old SSDs do a lot of magic in the background to make certain that the NAND modules age evenly. In the event that an individual module fails or goes bad/sees heavy errors, the SSD controller can mark that unit unusable and avoid writing to it so it will continue to function normally. The DDR memory will likely fail before the SSD does on the PS5 even in extreme cases.
It seems people don't know much about SSDs. The 600 TBW figure assumes the drive is EMPTY. The methods used to keep SSD sector usage evenly only works on unused parts of the storage. As you fill up the drive with data the TBW drops. If you only leave 10 Gb free on this drive you end up with roughly 7.5 TBW. That can go by really fast since the OS is constantly writing temporary data to the drive for paging. Since most console owners have never used anything with an SSD they won't know you should always leave at least 10% free. With this drive already being small now you need to subtract 82.5 Gb from max capacity in order to keep the irreplaceable SSD healthy.
Here are my pet peeves:
1. Replaceability - let's just hope that Sony didn't pull a RED with storage and default SSD has no proprietary code on the chip. In RED mini mag storage, in the enclosure you have regular SSD, but with code of their own making, which makes it impossible to replace the storage outside of buying new mini mag. If that may be the case here ("protection of customers from low quality replacements"), then it may be a bad experience for users.
2. Whole trim, over provisioning, and MTBF - it's an issue as soon as you start recording video. Which in this case a lot will do. This may wear out SSD rather quickly. As an example, 825GB SSD with 600TBW, after first game installed leaves you with ~400GB and 300TBW for free part. Another game will shave free storage to ~100GB and ~75TBW. Assumed 50MBps capture (avg of what smartphones record at 4K) results in 22GB per hour. This means up to 5h of recording will fit at once, and such single session will shave the TBW by said 100GB (about 1/1000th of original value). It's 3 years for avid gamer to averaged failure time.
3. Performance drop at near-full capacity. Including read speeds(which are crucial now for PS5). From my limited tests and literal few benchmark I could find, you can expect about or even less than 20% of original speed at near-full capacity (TLC drives). Hope this will be enough to load assets quickly enough for uninterrupted gameplay.
The article fails to mention that the PS5 and Xbox Series X both have soldered SSDs. If one has the problem both have the problem. The writers must be Xbox fan boys trying to put out negative info on the PS5 since their article forgets to mention Xbox Series X will have the same problem if there's a problem at all.
Quote from: splus on October 09, 2020, 05:37:52
SSDs never die, this will never be an issue. The first SSDs, long time ago, had a shorter life, but the modern ones last decades with normal usage! The CPU in PS5, and especially its liquid metal paste are more likely to fail earlier than the SSD.
The regular HDs don't last long on the other hand. Almost every portable USB HD I've ever owned (started from 20 GB to 2 TB) have died eventually, with below average usage.
Ssd's never die? HD's die????? The heck have you been smoking on? It's the complete opposite you twat
Quote from: Mike M. on October 12, 2020, 12:42:27
The article fails to mention that the PS5 and Xbox Series X both have soldered SSDs. If one has the problem both have the problem. The writers must be Xbox fan boys trying to put out negative info on the PS5 since their article forgets to mention Xbox Series X will have the same problem if there's a problem at all.
Actually, the Xbox Series X internal SSD is not soldered directly to the motherboard. It uses a proprietary size and it does have specific mounting hardware, but it can be removed/replaced if it fails.
INTERNAL SSD = TH58TEG0T24BGA4C = 3D TLC BICS 4 "MAYBE 96LAYER"
TOSHIBA BICS MUCH SAFER THAN OTHER
MICRON INTEL B16,B17,B27,B27B.B48 .VERY BAD LIFE. USE HIGHT ECC. MUCH HIGHT RISK
ALSO HYNIX 3D TLC IS LOW LIFE
SAMSUNG IS GOOD BUT EXPENSIVE
WE MUST SEE .BUT KNOW THIS TLC P/E IS LOW
AFTER 4 YEARS OF WRITE AND READ FAIL RATE TELL US TRUE
I wonder why everyone is surprised by planned aging? After all, they themselves agreed to this by purchasing such a product. And everything was clear from the beginning.