>> Working memory not expandable
As a long-term Mac user, I would like to give a warm welcome to the new members of the club!
Terrible value.
It's true that anyone with a recent Mac or any of the Lunar Lake mini PCs is accustomed to non-expandable RAM, but it"s still not a convincing element when coupled with the rest.
What is something you won't find on any spec sheet is how terrible Minisforum's customer support is and how lousy they are when it comes to honouring warranties. Minisforum's products aren't exactly known for their reliability and long-lasting value, either.
Factor that in when considering handing $2k+ for one of their products - at least I know Apple does a wonderful job in that field.
QuoteWorking memory not expandable
But the advantage is that the memory speed is at 8000 MT/s. If you get the 128 GB RAM version, it doesn't matter if it's not expandable, because Strix Halo doesn't support more than 128 GB RAM anyway.
QuoteMinisforum MS-S1 Max
AMD Ryzen AI Max+ 395, Radeon 8060S
122719 MB/s
Geekom A9 Max, AI 9 HX 370
AMD Ryzen AI 9 HX 370, Radeon 890M
86541 MB/s
(From the Framework Desktop Strix Halo review)
HX 370: 128-bit * 5600 MT/s / 1000 / 8 = 89.6 GB/s (does check out with the measurement)
AI Max+ 395: 256-bit * 8000 MT/s / 1000 / 8 = 256 GB/s (does
NOT check out with the measurement)
Can you measure with the newest version 8.0?
To quote you from your Framework Desktop Strix Halo review:
QuoteUnfortunately, the system is not compatible with the recent AMD FSR4 update as the GPU is based on the same RDNA 3.5 architecture as the Radeon 890M and not the Radeon RX 9000 RDNA4 series.
Imagine paying 2400€ for last gen GPU architecture.
LLMsThe "Strix Halo" APU is a 256-bit chip with a theoretical memory bandwidth of 256 GB/s (256-bit * 8000 MT/s / 1000 / 8) (and ~210 GB/s practically (expected)), comparable to an entry level quad-channel (4 * 64-bit) workstation' memory bandwidth. A normal desktop PC is dual-channel at best. AMD specifically advertises "Strix Halo" for running/inferencing LLMs. You can run the same LLMs on any PC, if you have at least the same amount of RAM (well, running off of a SSD will also work, but the speed will be super slow), ATX sized or not, dual-channel RAM or not, the differences are:
- The size: This is 3.5 Liters.
- The RAM speed at which any LLM will be running at: Strix Halo is a quad-channel chip at 8000 MT/s vs a normal PC, which is dual-channel at 5600 MT/s to 6200 MT/s (2*64-bit*6200/1000/8 = 99,2 GB/s)). A (mini-)PC based on the "Strix Halo" APU will run a LLM about 2.5 times faster: 256 GB/s / 99,2 GB/s = ~2.58.
- The RAM upgradability: The LPDDR5X RAM in "Strix Halo"-based PCs is not upgradable, maybe because it runs at 8000 MT/s vs 5600 MT/s to 6200 MT/s typically seen in DDR5 UDIMMs. A DDR5 UDIMM version with upgradable RAM may appear later, but it's not going to be at 8000 MT/s, like the soldered ones. CUDIMM may reach 8000 MT/s.
Questions to ask yourself:
- Is the LLM speed difference of 2.5 times (150 %) and the price worth it vs simply getting 2x48GB RAM sticks or 2x64GB RAM sticks for a fraction of the price and having then more RAM (although, yes, slower) vs paying 2400 bucks and being stuck with the hardware and no upgrade path (on a desktop you could upgrade to 4x64GB)?
- And, if the size matters, you can still get a mini-ITX case, AM5 mini-ITX motherboard and build a PC of the same size (or get a pre-built mini-ITX PC), with the possibility to:
- Upgrade the RAM.
- Having a dedicated GPU. There are not many choices for 4.0 - 4.5 Liter mini-ITX builds, mostly low profile RTX 4060 or RTX 5060), but this is still better and faster (and harder, stronger, hehe) than the built-in iGPU in Strix Halo:
- You get the ability to upgrade the GPU later, like when/if in 2026 the Refresh GPUs come out, using 3GB, instead of 2GB, GDDR7 chips and you get 50 % more VRAM in the same size.
- A dedicated GPU (4060 / 5060) will also have faster prompt processing (pp).
- The ability to partially or fully offload to the fast VRAM of the GPU (5060: 448 GB/s).
- A dedicated GPU adds additional capacity to the RAM.
- And, not LLM related, but: You can also game with higher FPS if you add a GPU that is faster than Strix Halo's iGPU (between RTX 4060 Laptop (=RTX 4050 desktop, which doesn't even exist, this is how bad it would be (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GeForce_RTX_40_series)) and RTX 4070 Laptop (=RTX 4060 desktop)).
- Having 24 PCIe 4.0 lanes vs Stix Halo's 16 PCIe 4.0 lanes.
- And, if looks matter, there are many arguably better looking mini-ITX cases, too.
A listed con was "inadequate cooling for the 16x slot"
That is because it isn't designed to take on high heat GPU's. If you want to use one they recommend the Oculink card with an external case.
Besides, the slot is only 4x with a 16x riser.
Once again for the cheap seats, Minis Forum designs "balanced systems" where power usage is intended to be balanced throughout the platform. If you distort the power usage to favor one thing at the expense of others in the chassis, you will get reboots, instability or heaven forbid a block PSU or VRM fail.
If you want to cram you favorite global warming GPU in this, forget it. It's just not designed for that.
If you want to cram in a billion different accessories and load it all up with Proxmox and make it your personal datacenter, go nuts, but you should really be using a mini-tower with a more robust PSU for that kind of use case. Minis Forum has cut much of the power budget for these designs to reduce the overall power profile.
As noted on Reddit, don't let the price distort your technical better judgement.