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Four-generations later, heck, there's even a RTX2080Ti CP2077 so-called special edition, and NVIDIA still fails at a stable performance level for this title with everything at max setting without the fake frames.

Blackwell is a sad joke - it cost ridiculously more, much more power hungry, ect. and that's without any users' feedback for this thing yet.

Score that just appeared in Blender Open data, note that this is was achieved with Blender 3.6 an old version. Note the more recent 4.3.

NVIDIA GeForce RTX 5090   17822.17        1
NVIDIA GeForce RTX 4090 13063.74   1450 (number of benchmarks)

6 years since NVIDIA first introduced ray-tracing hardware onto the market and people still don't understand how intensive path-tracing is on hardware. The fact that it's able to get close to 30fps is an insane technical feat. Kids are spoiled. Try getting close to that on any AMD GPU at 4K with path-tracing enabled and no upscaling or frame generation. You're getting single digit FPS numbers. It doesn't have to do with "lack of optimization" or hardware being trash, path tracing on a MODERN GAME is just absurdly intensive. If you don't realize this then you're too uninformed to take part in discussion about it.

Quote from: LL on January 17, 2025, 16:04:52Score that just appeared in Blender Open data, note that this is was achieved with Blender 3.6 an old version. Note the more recent 4.3.

NVIDIA GeForce RTX 5090   17822.17        1
NVIDIA GeForce RTX 4090 13063.74   1450 (number of benchmarks)

So allegedly,
RTX 5090 = >136% at 575W = 127,77%
RTX 4090 = 100% at 450W = 100%

Hence, relativ speed normalised per watt:
RTX 5090 = 107%
RTX 4090 = 100%

Even the 5090 is a scam! (Except for its cooling.)

Quote from: Tkun on January 17, 2025, 16:43:306 years since NVIDIA first introduced ray-tracing hardware onto the market and people still don't understand how intensive path-tracing is on hardware. The fact that it's able to get close to 30fps is an insane technical feat. Kids are spoiled. Try getting close to that on any AMD GPU at 4K with path-tracing enabled and no upscaling or frame generation. You're getting single digit FPS numbers. It doesn't have to do with "lack of optimization" or hardware being trash, path tracing on a MODERN GAME is just absurdly intensive. If you don't realize this then you're too uninformed to take part in discussion about it.

100 percent agreed. The general public and this whole youtuber generation is clueless and spoiled.

Quote from: Tkun on January 17, 2025, 16:43:306 years since NVIDIA first introduced ray-tracing hardware onto the market and people still don't understand how intensive path-tracing is on hardware. The fact that it's able to get close to 30fps is an insane technical feat. Kids are spoiled. Try getting close to that on any AMD GPU at 4K with path-tracing enabled and no upscaling or frame generation. You're getting single digit FPS numbers. It doesn't have to do with "lack of optimization" or hardware being trash, path tracing on a MODERN GAME is just absurdly intensive. If you don't realize this then you're too uninformed to take part in discussion about it.

Exactly this. Jensen himself even said this is impossible without DLSS. They didn't try to hide anything. You just simply cannot calculate path tracing in real time at any playable frame rate. They invented a way to make it passable and beautiful and the mouth breathers still yell "optimize!"

Quote from: TruthIsThere on January 17, 2025, 15:12:41Four-generations later, heck, there's even a RTX2080Ti CP2077 so-called special edition, and NVIDIA still fails at a stable performance level for this title with everything at max setting without the fake frames.

Blackwell is a sad joke - it cost ridiculously more, much more power hungry, ect. and that's without any users' feedback for this thing yet.

Or maybe the engine is a joke and a huge performance bottleneck and that is why CDOR left it for Unreal Engine 5 and you have no idea what you're talking about. I'd bet on that more than anything.

The fact is that Moore's Law is slowing down and new nodes are getting insanely expensive and it's just not possible to make GPUs with huge raw performance gains each generation anymore and still keep the price even somewhat reasonable.

Are AI solutions perfect? No. But DLSS is apparently getting really good. Frame gen has the latency issue but technologies like Reflex 2 will help with that somewhat.

Going forward, we'll need to keep of both frame rate with and without frame-gen. For some games where latency is more of a concern, people will need to turn down settings to keep non-frame-gen framerate high enough for responsiveness. In titles like third person games where responsiveness doesn't need to be as good, then people can afford to turn up settings more and still enjoy the smoothness of frame-gen, assuming DLSS 4 is as good as I've heard.

Nvidia shouldn't try to sell us the idea that AI generated frames are equivalent to traditionally rendered ones, but DLSS 4 looks to be a game changing technology nonetheless.

*keep track of both

Quote from: Tkun on January 17, 2025, 16:43:306 years since NVIDIA first introduced ray-tracing hardware onto the market and people still don't understand how intensive path-tracing is on hardware. The fact that it's able to get close to 30fps...

Thing is, they sell you on something for 6 years and up till now it is not really ray tracing. And i don't think it's saving the devs all the promised time by not having to worry about baked in lighting at all. So it's still not really ready for all consumers.

I remember ray tracing that shiny newton's cradle above a checkerboard floor back in the day, and it used to take hours to render one frame at low resolution. So fully aware of where we have got to. But still not quite convinced!

NVIDIA itself has admitted it is no longer a consumer based company. So anyone buying a non consumer based product for consumer based applications is enabling them to develop and take out the competition across the board.

12vhpwr was an improperly manufactured plug. It was revised to fix the problems not created by costumers then they blamed the customers and were allowed to get away with because the costumers didn't want to believe the fact that the company that was once the best gpu manufacturer is no longer even manufacturing a product for them. So stop living in the past. Presently NVIDIA isn't even making a good product line. 5090 30% better than 4090. 5080 15% better than the 4080. Lower teir cards are all 20% better. So that literally means they purposefully didn't make the 5080 25% better than the 4080. That's 10% less of performance than the customer should have gotten for the same money.

Quote from: RobertJasiek on January 17, 2025, 17:13:22

Quote from: LL on January 17, 2025, 16:04:52Score that just appeared in Blender Open data, note that this is was achieved with Blender 3.6 an old version. Note the more recent 4.3.

NVIDIA GeForce RTX 5090   17822.17        1
NVIDIA GeForce RTX 4090 13063.74   1450 (number of benchmarks)

So allegedly,
RTX 5090 = >136% at 575W = 127,77%
RTX 4090 = 100% at 450W = 100%

Hence, relativ speed normalised per watt:
RTX 5090 = 107%
RTX 4090 = 100%

Even the 5090 is a scam! (Except for its cooling.)

You should not use TDP values.

I doubt this. I have a 9800X3D and 4090 and hit 60-70 fps with RT, Ultra at 4K in Cyberpunk. Unless it's being implied that the 5090 will be worse than the 4090.

Quote from: KS9 on January 18, 2025, 03:01:12I doubt this. I have a 9800X3D and 4090 and hit 60-70 fps with RT, Ultra at 4K in Cyberpunk. Unless it's being implied that the 5090 will be worse than the 4090.

Have the same configuration. It's 26 - 27 fps pure, 60 - 70 using DLSS Quality preset and FG plus it goes up to 110 fps when looking to the ground or in less detailed areas.

5090 will do 28 fps pure, around 110 fps using DLSS Quality and 280 or whatever fps using MFG x4.

Quote from: LL on January 17, 2025, 23:23:16You should not use TDP values.

Because using them for analysing exhibits fake progress sold by Nvidia to us as real progress?

Am I crazy to think that raytracing is what sli technology should have been used for. It's asinine to try and do 4k ray tracing on modern games and I bet we are still another couple gens atleast before we get there and it won't matter because we will be on to 8k by then. Proper raytracing is so resource hungry even a full second card dedicated to it might not be able to keep up, and we all see the difference in RT on and off in The frame rates

So many hype about Ray Tracing since 2018 among journalists, but they do not remember that average gamer has 2060/3060/4060s.  And they still can't play with RT as it completely ruins fps. I have 4060, all games with RT On makes them unplayable.

The main thing missing in reviews is that,  if Cyberpunk (or whatever) runs at, say, 30FPS, then regardless of how many frames are delivered to your monitor via 'other technologies', the game is still running at 30FPS. Your gaming experience is at 30FPS, regardless of the 200-odd frames you are seeing on screen.

Card manufacturers should only be able to marked raw performance claims - without frame generation technology- otherwise it's just done to fool consumers

I gotta stop spoiling myself with a new gpu(s) I have an rtx 4090, i9 14 gen processor, 32gb of ram all of a sudden that's not enough.....I feel like I'm playing on PS5 graphics whenever a new graphics card comes out.

This time I gotta resist the temptations if I can quit smoking cigarettes I can quit buying hardware I really don't need. And an upgrade to 64gb of ram is an extra $200 on top of all that and I already paid over $3000 for laptop, controllers and SSD card.

What makes me mad is the laptop that has the 5090 costs the same as my laptop. I wish I wasn't homeless I'd get a desktop setup for cheaper.

You need everything else better too... I can run the game 50fps with path tracing and all if you still can't do it you need a better CPU, TAM, AND EVERYRHING...  maybe clean the PC from trash and remove anti-virus and close all the running apps.. make sure PC is set to performance mode... thats pretty fishy to still be struggling on it... I get a smooth 60 on quality mode dlss.. and I got the 4090.. BUT 10 core intel 64gb ram a clean PC and adequate air flow 1600 watt power supply

Quote from: Tkun on January 17, 2025, 16:43:306 years since NVIDIA first introduced ray-tracing hardware onto the market and people still don't understand how intensive path-tracing is on hardware. The fact that it's able to get close to 30fps is an insane technical feat. Kids are spoiled. Try getting close to that on any AMD GPU at 4K with path-tracing enabled and no upscaling or frame generation. You're getting single digit FPS numbers. It doesn't have to do with "lack of optimization" or hardware being trash, path tracing on a MODERN GAME is just absurdly intensive. If you don't realize this then you're too uninformed to take part in discussion about it.

Sorry I don't agree with this nonsense. Since when is it acceptable for companies to release products where their top tier is sub par. Also since when do consumers start defending this! In what backass world do those paying money defend getting ripped off. Your entire thought process is part of the problem! Giving excuses for why something should be accepted.

If Ray tracing is so complex and hard, then guess what. You don't release it until you've developed the hardware to a level that's acceptable. Period. No excuses when companies make billions taking people's money.

So while BOTH teams Blue & Red have offered us SUB < %20 generational 'performance improvement' for decades some consumers are crying fowl over team Green doing the same?

LOL!!

If you care for ray tracing and wanna keep alpha testing it on new gen products and pay for the privilege be my guest.
End of the day the only game it's actually half decent is Minecraft anyway from what I see compared to most other games. And the other games that stupidly use it run and play better with the gimmick ray tracing off anyway.

Quote from: Stevie bah on January 19, 2025, 03:02:27If you care for ray tracing and wanna keep alpha testing it on new gen products and pay for the privilege be my guest.
End of the day the only game it's actually half decent is Minecraft anyway from what I see compared to most other games. And the other games that stupidly use it run and play better with the gimmick ray tracing off anyway.

Minecraft needs a 6090 to even think about getting 30 FPS. That game is hardcore, yo, and uses SAM Tracing (successor to Ray)

Well, can't say I'm surprised.

They've been openly relying on "MOAR DAKKA" as opposed to anything else for the past few generations. Pushing the node to the retical limit, and having that among other things bite them back on the chip they actually vare about here... the monster that is made for the big bois.

Of course this thing can't do much more in raw raster. All their engineering went into the tensor and RT cores. Both lauded outside of gaming, especially that first one.

Is Moores Law actually dead? I don't think so. Nvidia seems to believe so though, especially on the traditional raster front. AI though? They dig up Moore and bring him back to life lol

@Wesley:

You make it seem like the competition is any different - when the reality is they're just as guilty. So dunno why the sole emphasis on Nvidia?

The fact of the matter is nobody cares about consumer dGPUs anymore and hasn't done so for several years now. Anyone still complaining about this is as you correctly put:

Quote from: Wesley on January 17, 2025, 21:29:55living in the past

Quote from: GeorgeS on January 18, 2025, 22:51:39LOL!!

Stop laughing.

Quote from: GeorgeS on January 18, 2025, 22:51:39So while BOTH teams Blue & Red have offered us SUB < %20 generational 'performance improvement'

Apparently, from the leaks/rumourmill, RDNA4 is expected to be up to a 40%-45% gen improvement.

Don't get too excited tho, even if that does indeed become the case you can rest assured Ayymd will price at $600, in accordance to their "never fail to miss an opportunity" philosophy.

Who the heck plays 4k with path tracing on let alone ray tracing for the most part. This shouldn't even be considered a baseline target to achieve or compare to at this time, the fact that people are making videos and articles about 30fps pathtracing on 5090 means they're just echoing and Nvidia marketing BS about DLSS4 gains and the use case for it.

Path tracing impact on 4K especially is way higher than what it's worth for most players with even high end rigs and feasibly utilizing this technology is in its infancy still.