With Lunar Lake all set to officially launch ahead of IFA 2024 next month, NotebookCheck had an email chat with Intel's Robert Hallock, VP Technical Marketing on the rationale behind some of the architecture decisions, what can be expected of Lunar Lake-powered laptops, and how the company views competition from ARM.https://www.notebookcheck.net/Conversations-around-ARM-vs-x86-power-are-false-Intel-s-Robert-Hallock-on-Lunar-Lake-s-strategy-and-how-it-is-well-poised-to-challenge-ARM-s-efficiency-narrative.867249.0.html
"Because of choices like these, we believe that Lunar Lake can achieve lower package power than ARM designs ceteris paribus."
Later when Lunar Lake flops he will say oh I meant Rockchip RK3588 ARM, not Apple Silicon ARM.
Quote from: randon on August 05, 2024, 19:49:45"Because of choices like these, we believe that Lunar Lake can achieve lower package power than ARM designs ceteris paribus."
Later when Lunar Lake flops he will say oh I meant Rockchip RK3588 ARM, not Apple Silicon ARM.
The question is about snapdragon elite.
Overall, the biggest issue x86 has compared to ARM is a lot of backwards compatibility bloat that takes up space and power on the chipsets. But they are kind of getting around the power issue with p-cores and e-cores, which is like ARM's big.LITTLE
Effectively, when you do common things like browse the web, watch videos or just idling. It will use highly efficient e-cores. Thus you would get a huge boost in battery life for every day stuff which is what most people want
Quote from: A on August 05, 2024, 23:56:49The question is about snapdragon elite.
I doubt LL will be able to compete with 2nd gen Qualcomm too.
Quote from: A on August 05, 2024, 23:56:49It will use highly efficient e-cores.
No it will not, try forcing your browser to use efficiency cores =only= and watch the lagfest. Efficient cores are for scheduling low-load OS tasks.
Quote from: randon on August 06, 2024, 00:37:57Quote from: A on August 05, 2024, 23:56:49The question is about snapdragon elite.
I doubt LL will be able to compete with 2nd gen Qualcomm too.
Quote from: A on August 05, 2024, 23:56:49It will use highly efficient e-cores.
No it will not, try forcing your browser to use efficiency cores =only= and watch the lagfest. Efficient cores are for scheduling low-load OS tasks.
You underestimate the efficient cores, current e-cores give performance of 6th gen intel processors. The new e-cores will have a 68% higher ipc while using less energy
Since I am typing this currently from a laptop with 4th gen intel processor and don't have a lag fest. Though to be fair I am on linux and not windows 11 which has a ton of stuff eating resources in the background
Quote from: A on August 06, 2024, 04:36:36You underestimate the efficient cores, current e-cores give performance of 6th gen intel processors.
That's just because Intel could never do a proper e-cores and controversy about them not really being too efficient was always around. They had to add a third flavor of "low power e-cores" into the meteor Lake, I was referring to those.
Quote from: A on August 06, 2024, 04:36:36The new e-cores will have a 68% higher ipc while using less energy
Anyone still trusts Intel drip marketing in 2024? The only reason for it is to force you to compare promises with current ARM hardware, but by the time all these claims will form themself into a laptop you can actually buy (if they will be true), Apple will have M5 or M6.
Quote from: randon on August 06, 2024, 10:48:40That's just because Intel could never do a proper e-cores and controversy about them not really being too efficient was always around. They had to add a third flavor of "low power e-cores" into the meteor Lake, I was referring to those.
They are getting rid of that, lp e-cores and e-cores are now only e-cores
QuoteAnyone still trusts Intel drip marketing in 2024? The only reason for it is to force you to compare promises with current ARM hardware, but by the time all these claims will form themself into a laptop you can actually buy (if they will be true), Apple will have M5 or M6.
I am not trusting anything, we will see how they perform when they are out in 1 month.
Intel does not need to worry about Apple as their competition is snapdragon and of course AMD
Quote from: randon on August 06, 2024, 00:37:57No it will not, try forcing your browser to use efficiency cores =only= and watch the lagfest. Efficient cores are for scheduling low-load OS tasks.
No, it doesn't.. get yourself a n100 or n305. They're actually very capable machines.
I use them for home servers, but they also make great general desktops.. CPU are at a point where most users would find it hard to tell the different between an £100 or £1500 CPU, is relation to general use such as browsing.
Quote from: Kelv1n on August 12, 2024, 10:49:51No, it doesn't.. get yourself a n100 or n305. They're actually very capable machines.
Exactly because those are not real E cores and exactly why Intel had to make "low power E cores" in Meteor Lake. Both N100 and N305 are piece of crap in performance/power compared to ARM, and are very hot on top of that. The only reason they are popular now is China overstocked and desperately trying to sell one to everyone, until they completely lose value.
Even 3yr old rooted Android phone with chroot Linux is a much better home server than these, not even speaking about M1 Mac Mini.
Quote from: A on August 06, 2024, 04:36:36Since I am typing this currently from a laptop with 4th gen intel processor and don't have a lag fest.
It is 100% lie.
Quote from: randon on August 12, 2024, 12:08:12Both N100 and N305 are piece of crap in performance/power compared to ARM, and are very hot on top of that. The only reason they are popular now is China overstocked and desperately trying to sell one to everyone, until they completely lose value.
Tens of thousands of 2008 generation Xeon C2Ds are still being successfully sold in China. Which speed up all kinds of consumer junk by 2 times literally at very low temperatures.
I have C2D laptops, first generation Core I, 4th, 8th generation Intel and AMD Zen+ and there are old desktops. The difference is visible to the naked eye in the speed of loading web pages.
The funniest thing is that even the antique E5450 plays 1440p@60fps/VP9 on YouTube under W7 (but without VSync, because it is not supported there due to MS's fault). And it can't handle under LTSB - the background load on the processor is too big with the same video driver (according to the version) in W10. Not to mention the terrible and very slow W11 with huge ram demands vs W7 core (and this after special core tunning).
Apparently, in order to somehow squeeze people out of old platforms, which are quite functional (if you don't pay attention to page opening delays) even today, these bastards removed support for processors without SSE4.2, and this is precisely the C2D family, which is now being sold en masse from China for next to nothing.
Even Xeon/Haswell with 16-32 cores are sold for next to nothing - $100-150 in a set with a motherboard and 32-64GB DDR3/4.
Why do people need LunarLake or even the 12-14 generation? =)
Or look at the "new" security "hole" in all AMD platforms since 2006. It is obvious that this was done intentionally right now. At the same time, to AMD's shame, they announced that they would not release a "patch" for the 1000-3000 desktop series, but they would for the mobile 3000 series. How should this be understood? And where should the authorities look? The company that knew about the hole and did not close it is subject to class action lawsuits regardless of the statute of limitations.
Quote from: N--B on August 12, 2024, 20:37:43Why do people need LunarLake or even the 12-14 generation? =)
Because your Xeons are about as performant as raspberry pi?
Quote from: Kelv1n on August 12, 2024, 10:49:51Quote from: randon on August 06, 2024, 00:37:57No it will not, try forcing your browser to use efficiency cores =only= and watch the lagfest. Efficient cores are for scheduling low-load OS tasks.
No, it doesn't.. get yourself a n100 or n305. They're actually very capable machines.
I use them for home servers, but they also make great general desktops.. CPU are at a point where most users would find it hard to tell the different between an £100 or £1500 CPU, is relation to general use such as browsing.
Agreed.
When/if you get away from Windoze even a Intel Core i5-4288U (dual core) works fine for 'home tasks' in 2024.
Are you having 'hesitation' or 'delays' of pages loading? You might consider using a browser that supports effective advertisement & script blocking. Considering all the 'chaff' many webpages are filled with these days, the removal of 'chaff' surely speeds up the loading of the 'wheat'. :)
It boggles the mind the sheep programming where folks think EVERYONE needs/requires a high performance 'work station' to do ANYTHING.
As others have surely mentioned it is a Capitalistic Monopoly Conspiracy to render perfectly good hardware obsolete so the owners are inclined to replace it with new hardware.
Even the much loved 'Linux' and 'Firefox' (and many others) no longer support mere 32bit CPU's anymore. (forget about 16 or 8bit ones...)
Quote from: GeorgeS on August 13, 2024, 22:11:04When/if you get away from Windoze even a Intel Core i5-4288U (dual core) works fine for 'home tasks' in 2024.
No it's not. Run office 365+Slack+Discord+youtube video+ten other tabs and watch it trying to chew all this on 2 cores while using more power than modern machines that are 5 to 10 times faster and more suited for multitasking.
I'm not even picking on "home tasks" and "webpages" which probably is the only thing you are doing. Try building an Android Studio project? What about ASP.NET project with local SQL server db and a couple Docker containers? Like try doing actual productivity.
Quote from: GeorgeS on August 13, 2024, 22:11:04Even the much loved 'Linux' and 'Firefox' (and many others) no longer support mere 32bit CPU's anymore. (forget about 16 or 8bit ones...)
They do, you just need to enable support and rebuild kernel. They were removed from mainline because no one is using those cpus and their support is just taking space and dev effort.
Quote from: GeorgeS on August 13, 2024, 22:11:04As others have surely mentioned it is a Capitalistic Monopoly Conspiracy to render perfectly good hardware obsolete so the owners are inclined to replace it with new hardware.
This conspiracy is called "stop being a retrograde and living in nostalgia"
My old machine with an i7-10870H and 16GB ram is anaemic and I got it early 2022.
It couldn't cope on battery power with 10-15 tabs, WSL, a docker container, VSCode and YouTube in the background without being visibly slow and that meant plenty of lags and occasional freezes. It got better when plugged in, with lots of heat and fan noise but even then it would lag heavily with a few more tabs/Youtube videos idle in the background.
I'd be lucky if the battery lasted more than a few hours (and I'd replaced it myself).
My new X Elite machine almost never has fans that kicks in, it's cool and isn't ever slow.
The gap in efficiency is enormous. Intel's P cores aren't actually power efficient. They're area efficient, meaning that they take less space on the die, allowing them to fit more cores.
Quote from: ADA on August 14, 2024, 06:38:31i7-10870H and 16GB ram is anaemic and I got it early 2022.
It couldn't cope on battery power with 10-15 tabs, WSL, a docker container, VSCode and YouTube in the background without being visibly slow and that meant plenty of lags and occasional freezes. It got better when plugged in, with lots of heat and fan noise but even then it would lag heavily with a few more tabs/Youtube videos idle in the background.
Sure, sure.
Quote from: Worgarthe on August 14, 2024, 10:28:44Sure, sure.
Bet the reason you are trying to be all funny and sarcastic is you've never ran Docker containers and don't even know what WSL is.
Quote from: dfgfdg on August 14, 2024, 11:04:48Bet the reason you are trying to be all funny and sarcastic is you've never ran Docker containers and don't even know what WSL is.
Lol, would you look at that, it's a lawyer of another chap.
Quote from: Worgarthe on August 14, 2024, 11:07:03Lol, would you look at that, it's a lawyer of another chap.
I take your childish passive-aggressive evasion of direct answer as a confirmation that my statement was correct.
Quote from: N--B on August 12, 2024, 20:37:43Quote from: A on August 06, 2024, 04:36:36Since I am typing this currently from a laptop with 4th gen intel processor and don't have a lag fest.
It is 100% lie.
I am literally on it right now, it is funny you think my personal experience isn't real when I am literally on it right now. If I were running windows it may be a lagfest, but I am running linux
Quote from: ADA on August 14, 2024, 06:38:31My old machine with an i7-10870H and 16GB ram is anaemic and I got it early 2022.
It couldn't cope on battery power with 10-15 tabs, WSL, a docker container, VSCode and YouTube in the background without being visibly slow and that meant plenty of lags and occasional freezes. It got better when plugged in, with lots of heat and fan noise but even then it would lag heavily with a few more tabs/Youtube videos idle in the background.
I'd be lucky if the battery lasted more than a few hours (and I'd replaced it myself).
My new X Elite machine almost never has fans that kicks in, it's cool and isn't ever slow.
The gap in efficiency is enormous. Intel's P cores aren't actually power efficient. They're area efficient, meaning that they take less space on the die, allowing them to fit more cores.
H processors are high power consumption and more performance. So those will always eat quite a bit more battery than the U processor made for low power
Also, P cores are performance cores, the power saving cores are E cores.
We will see in September how they compare
Quote from: A on August 16, 2024, 04:02:29but I am running linux
Linux what, there's a countless number of Linux and DE.
And what CPU exactly.
Quote from: sdvsdv on August 16, 2024, 18:55:14Quote from: A on August 16, 2024, 04:02:29but I am running linux
Linux what, there's a countless number of Linux and DE.
And what CPU exactly.
4600u, Linux Mint MATE
Quote from: A on August 17, 2024, 03:53:094600u
You are proudly running a Raspberry Pi 5 with more power consumption (and desk space).
And of course 4600u is laggy, even in Linux. If you don't see it then your workloads are very basic.
Quote from: sdvsdv on August 17, 2024, 12:07:28Quote from: A on August 17, 2024, 03:53:094600u
You are proudly running a Raspberry Pi 5 with more power consumption (and desk space).
The 4600u has only similar multicore performance, but much better single core performance. Which means I have slightly better in terms of cpu. And my gpu is much better, even more so since I have a dgpu
Quote from: lol on August 17, 2024, 12:43:11And of course 4600u is laggy, even in Linux. If you don't see it then your workloads are very basic.
My workflow on this computer is mostly web development which while not heavy since I am not compiling on this computer, but it isn't lean either and more than most people use their PC. I have 311 tabs open in chromium and 127 tabs open in firefox, LibreOffice, Thunderbird, pidgin, vscode, kate and filezilla all running
Quote from: A on August 18, 2024, 01:15:25but much better single core performance
There's always N100 SBCs like Radxa X4 if you are so focused on battling $60 SBCs for every geekbench point. It will even be an upgrade.
Quote from: A on August 18, 2024, 01:15:25My workflow on this computer is mostly web development
So basic text editing as expected.
Quote from: A on August 18, 2024, 01:15:25I have 311 tabs open in chromium and 127 tabs open in firefox
Number doesn't matter, 99% of them are unloaded.
Quote from: A on August 18, 2024, 01:15:25I have 311 tabs open in chromium and 127 tabs open in firefox, LibreOffice, Thunderbird, pidgin, vscode, kate and filezilla all running
This stack is very light, I could run it on phone/tablet.
Quote from: sdvsdv on August 18, 2024, 01:48:28There's always N100 SBCs like Radxa X4 if you are so focused on battling $60 SBCs for every geekbench point. It will even be an upgrade.
I have a laptop though, a SBC can't replace a laptop. And N100 has weak gpu
QuoteSo basic text editing as expected.
Quote from: A on August 18, 2024, 01:15:25I have 311 tabs open in chromium and 127 tabs open in firefox
Number doesn't matter, 99% of them are unloaded.
Quote from: A on August 18, 2024, 01:15:25I have 311 tabs open in chromium and 127 tabs open in firefox, LibreOffice, Thunderbird, pidgin, vscode, kate and filezilla all running
This stack is very light, I could run it on phone/tablet.
It is more than what 90% of people do on computers outside of gaming.
Quote from: A on August 19, 2024, 03:44:28I have a laptop though
There's N100 laptops too.
Quote from: A on August 19, 2024, 03:44:28And N100 has weak gpu
Like your 4600u can saturate any good GPU.
Quote from: A on August 19, 2024, 03:44:28It is more than what 90% of people do on computers outside of gaming.
You are underestimating people.
Quote from: sdvsdv on August 19, 2024, 10:09:54There's N100 laptops too.
Not as good as many low end laptops skimp on stuff like displays, touchpads, keyboards and etc
QuoteLike your 4600u can saturate any good GPU.
Better than the N100
QuoteYou are underestimating people.
Most people just use their PC for a web browser or basic stuff.
Quote from: A on August 20, 2024, 21:10:32Not as good as many low end laptops skimp on stuff like displays, touchpads, keyboards and etc
Quote from: A on August 20, 2024, 21:10:32Better than the N100
Quote from: A on August 20, 2024, 21:10:32Most people just use their PC for a web browser or basic stuff.
Answer is "no" to all three.
Quote from: A on August 16, 2024, 04:02:29Quote from: N--B on August 12, 2024, 20:37:43Quote from: A on August 06, 2024, 04:36:36Since I am typing this currently from a laptop with 4th gen intel processor and don't have a lag fest.
It is 100% lie.
I am literally on it right now, it is funny you think my personal experience isn't real when I am literally on it right now. If I were running windows it may be a lagfest, but I am running linux
My current everyday system is a 2013 13" MBP with
2.4 GHz Core i5 (I5-4258U) (this is a Dual Core folks)
- 8GB of memory, 256GB of SSD (87GB available)
- +100 tabs open in Firefox
- 6.8-7GB of memory used
- 2118 threads, 289 processes
- %10-15 CPU load, %90-95 Idle
- 10 applications open
Not at all 'laggy'.
Obviously YMMV.
Let me quickly translate
Quote from: GeorgeS on August 21, 2024, 07:41:26My current everyday system
"Hi guys I am running a system that is 3 times less powerful than a phone for 7-10 times more energy used just so I have something to say on the internets"
Quote from: GeorgeS on August 21, 2024, 07:41:26- 6.8-7GB of memory used
"And swap"
Quote from: GeorgeS on August 21, 2024, 07:41:26%10-15 CPU load, %90-95 Idle
"I don't even move the mouse"
Quote from: GeorgeS on August 21, 2024, 07:41:26+100 tabs open in Firefox
"Only couple are actually loaded, without heavy animations and javascript."
Quote from: GeorgeS on August 21, 2024, 07:41:26Not at all 'laggy'.
"Laggy as crap compared to anything modern"
Quote from: GeorgeS on August 21, 2024, 07:41:2610 applications open
"Apps are from 2008"
Quote from: wondows on August 21, 2024, 09:26:56Let me quickly translate
Quote from: GeorgeS on August 21, 2024, 07:41:26My current everyday system
"Hi guys I am running a system that is 3 times less powerful than a phone for 7-10 times more energy used just so I have something to say on the internets"
Quote from: GeorgeS on August 21, 2024, 07:41:26- 6.8-7GB of memory used
"And swap"
Quote from: GeorgeS on August 21, 2024, 07:41:26%10-15 CPU load, %90-95 Idle
"I don't even move the mouse"
Quote from: GeorgeS on August 21, 2024, 07:41:26+100 tabs open in Firefox
"Only couple are actually loaded, without heavy animations and javascript."
Quote from: GeorgeS on August 21, 2024, 07:41:26Not at all 'laggy'.
"Laggy as crap compared to anything modern"
Quote from: GeorgeS on August 21, 2024, 07:41:2610 applications open
"Apps are from 2008"
LOL!! Your funny!!!
- Who cares if it uses more power than modern devices?
- Who cares how old the APP's are? If they work why replace them? (unless YOUR a SHEEP!!)
- True, Firefox may only have a few TAB's active - as ANY browser ought to. :)
- Snappy and responsive as the day I bought it.
- Swap is ~3GB - who cares? (it is PCIe SSD LONG before anybody else was doing that)
So while the lemmings and sheep keep ditching their perfectly functional devices because "something new and shinny!!!" is available, those of us that match the tool for the job spend our CHEC (cold hard earned cash) on other items.
I should mention that I DO HAVE a 2019 version with i7/16GB/512GB but can't stand the keyboard so it boxed up and collects dust on a shelf in the closet.
Newer is NOT always better or even needed.
Quote from: GeorgeS on August 23, 2024, 02:44:32Who cares if it uses more power than modern devices?
Everyone.
Quote from: GeorgeS on August 23, 2024, 02:44:32Who cares how old the APP's are?
Everyone. You can have Office 2013 but you can't have anything real productivity-related from 2013.
Quote from: GeorgeS on August 23, 2024, 02:44:32(unless YOUR a SHEEP!!)
Quote from: GeorgeS on August 23, 2024, 02:44:32lemmings and sheep
There we go, IQ of a typical Windows user
Quote from: GeorgeS on August 23, 2024, 02:44:32True, Firefox may only have a few TAB's active
Quote from: GeorgeS on August 21, 2024, 07:41:26+100 tabs open in Firefox
Lol.
Quote from: GeorgeS on August 23, 2024, 02:44:32Snappy and responsive as the day I bought it
No it's not, even web pages are more computationally expensive today.
Quote from: GeorgeS on August 23, 2024, 02:44:32Swap is ~3GB - who cares?
The story about "using 6.7-7GB" didn't age well. Yeah, who cares about running on hard drive instead of RAM in the conversation about "snappy and responsive".
Quote from: GeorgeS on August 23, 2024, 02:44:32I DO HAVE a 2019 version with i7/16GB/512GB but can't stand the keyboard so it boxed up
Are you some kind of hoarder
Quote from: GeorgeS on August 23, 2024, 02:44:32Newer is NOT always better or even needed.
Yeah right. Thanks for your opinion, it's very important to us.