Around one month after the launch of Qualcomm's latest ARM chips, AMD has now release its new Zen 5 mobile processors codenamed Strix Point. We tested out the new Ryzen AI 9 HX 370 with various TDPs.https://www.notebookcheck.net/AMD-Zen-5-Strix-Point-CPU-analysis-Ryzen-AI-9-HX-370-versus-Intel-Core-Ultra-Apple-M3-and-Qualcomm-Snapdragon-X-Elite.868641.0.html
Verdict - destroyed even by previous generation of Apple Silicon.
Another throw-in on the fan:
The review does not include the top 7945HX from AMD, which consumes almost 2 times less in PL1 and is still at least 10% faster than the 14900HX. That is, it is 2 (two) times faster than the 14900HX at 1W in peak performance.
It is no longer interesting to read further, since it is clear that the article is frankly biased from the start, and the numbers are far-fetched.
Ok so am I the only one that is NOT surprised at all by the outcome?
After all, NO product EVER lives up to the pre-release 'hype' let alone outperforms it! LOL!
Granted the authors 'cherry picked' the competition and while smaller transistors use less energy and take up less space than larger ones there are limits to generational improvements based mostly on size/qty's.
While assembly language programmers long for a world where the Motorola 68000 instruction set is used everywhere it has taken DECADES for alternative CPU instruction sets to be viable and offer real platform choices.
So we have the ARM camp (Apple & Qualcomm) and the x86 camp (AMD & Intel) ALL coming out with VIABLE products.
Competition is GOOD for consumers!!
:)
Why is there no AMD Ryzen 9 7945HX3D or 7945HX in the list?
And you need to mention that none of the processors in this family have SODIMM RAM support. (Same goes for intel, so X86 is losing one huge advantage).
Until I can use Blender 3D's iGPU accelerated Cycles rendering on AMD's products and on Linux then I'm going to be looking at Intel's iGPU based SOCs instead where Intel's OneAPI/Level-0 is easier to get installed and working across more Linux Distros. The Tech Press is not testing for Blender 3D Integrated GPU compute API support on Linux, or even Windows! And as such it's not showing the Problems that AMD's ROCm/HIP iGPU/dGPU compute stack has with Linux that has to be solved by AMD before I can consider any AMD APU based system with iGPUs that currently have such nonexistent iGPU compute API support on Linux.
AMD's not yet as ready for Linux and Blender 3D's iGPU accelerated Cycles rendering and the fall back of Cycles rendering on the CPU cores is just too stressful on any laptop, or Mini Desktop PC, cooling solutions. But even with Intel's much better level of support for Blender 3D's iGPU accelerated Cycles rendering Apple's better there because all of Apple's graphics are of the Integrated Graphics kind and so Apple's Integrated Graphics support is more focused compared to the x86 Makers iGPU focus, what with most Laptop's and PCs using dGPUs and mostly of Nvidia makes and models of Laptop/PC dGPUs. And Nvidia makes sure that Blender 3D's dGPU accelerated Cycles rendering mostly just works on Windows/Linux!
As far as and Snapdragon X Elite usage in the Upcoming Tuxedo Linux Laptops I hope that the Tech Press will be inquiring ahead of time with the Tuxedo laptop Folks about that Blender 3D iGPU accelerated Cycles rendering support on the Adreno X1 iGPU because otherwise Apple's the only one supporting that on any ARM based SOCs with iGPUs!
And the Blender Foundation stopped supporting OpenCL as the iGPU/dGPU compute API ever since Blender 3.0 was released and we are now at Blender 4.2. And so any OpenCL tests are useless for end users of Blender 3.0/Later editions That require Nvidia CUDA(Nvidia GPUs), Apple Metal(Apple's iGPUs), OneAPI/Level-0(Intel's iGPUs/dGPUs) And AMD's ROCm/HIP(Very Sketchy support for AMD's consumer dGPUs and even worse for AMD's APUs with integrated graphics).
Well Ryzen AI 9 365 has 4+6 config not 2+8. Writer please check before posting.
More power efficiency comparison reviews for the Zen4 Phoenix.
phoronix.com/review/amd-ryzen-ai-9-365
phoronix.com/review/amd-ryzen-ai-9-hx-370
It's worth noting that this energy efficiency must be used correctly in a laptop - i.e. there must be power profiles that provide the same performance as the Zen4 Phoenix, but much, much quieter. If this is not provided in a specific laptop model - it makes no sense to buy it.
Quote from: usacomputer on July 30, 2024, 13:55:54I do not understand this obsession of the media to go against AMD and in favor of Intel, I know that Intel pays money but at least be as neutral as possible, thank God this does not happen in professional computer forums.
There is no "idea" but purely criminal selfish interest, carefully hidden from the population. After all, it spoils the reputation, and therefore instantly the traffic of commercial sites, and they are all commercial, it is business. But business must be decent and open in terms of principles and rules, otherwise it is criminal in its essence. Thomas Dunning did not believe in the integrity of business. I have not believed it either for a long time. My experience of many decades has proven the dishonesty of almost any business enterprise, with very rare exceptions, which, against the background of the masses of dishonest business, quickly go down the drain for obvious reasons - to live with wolves, howl like a wolf.
It's all doesn't matter if there will be no laptops with these cpus. Despite me wanting to switch to ryzen, I keep booking Intel laptops several years straight for the company because laptops with AMDs are either some budget machines with unacceptable screens or limited to 16 gigs ram.. Already booked dell xps with intel this year...
Quote from: George on July 29, 2024, 22:41:55So we have the ARM camp (Apple & Qualcomm)
Please don't mention or categorise Apple and Qualcomm in the same sentence as if they're comparable to one another. You might actually confuse and mislead people.
Arms Apple is so very different (both in performance & compatibility) to Qualcomm's you might aswell call it a different ISA / architecture all together at this point.
Quote from: Naa on July 30, 2024, 19:23:44Qualcomm
Not a bad chip actually, especially the lower SKUs. Their mistake was trying to run in "Windows first". Windows is a bloated OS that just ignores what you want, it can easily start downloading updates when you have 15% battery, Defender is constantly nagging CPU, stupid HP even tried to sell those X Elites with preinstalled Mcafee, making laptop basically unusable. And what we have in the end - quite a nice chip running a mess of OS with unfinished support, full GPU support is still not done and given messy sales start it might never be finished now - MS is widely known for dropping projects.
Qualcomm should target the Linux crowd and come in hot with open source hardware support. ARM linux laptop would sell like crazy. You can't beat Apple with a mess Windows is, especially when Apple is in 4th CPU generation already and they already have a lot of cheap older (but still very good) models and a huge refurb+second-hand market.
No soldered RAM laptops will sell "like crazy", at their current prices, no matter the OS they're running.
Seems like most OEMs are trying to milk this "ARM shift" as much as possible, trying to sell something rather ordinary as special.
I'd wait at least 6 months before buying a new architecture product.
Quote from: vladteapa on July 31, 2024, 09:17:31No soldered RAM laptops will sell "like crazy", at their current prices, no matter the OS they're running.
In 5 years they get outdated and adding ram will not make them modern anyway.
Compare something like mac mini 2018 with 100w 8700B and modern ryzen minipc and pretend you can make mac mini quicker and less power hungry 5.5 years later in in 2024 by shoveling in more of those outdated DDR4 2666 sticks. Same with laptops, how many ram are you going to add to crappy hot 3hr-on-battery intel machine to make it great again.
I'm tired of "soldered ram is bad".
Quote from: Steve1 on July 31, 2024, 09:33:04Quote from: vladteapa on July 31, 2024, 09:17:31No soldered RAM laptops will sell "like crazy", at their current prices, no matter the OS they're running.
In 5 years they get outdated and adding ram will not make them modern anyway.
Compare something like mac mini 2018 with 100w 8700B and modern ryzen minipc and pretend you can make mac mini quicker and less power hungry 5.5 years later in in 2024 by shoveling in more of those outdated DDR4 2666 sticks. Same with laptops, how many ram are you going to add to crappy hot 3hr-on-battery intel machine to make it great again.
I'm tired of "soldered ram is bad".
I think you're missing the point here.
1) It's not flexible, you have to estimate today how much ram you'll need in next 2+ years. But today you only use browser on your laptop and even 16gigs is enough, so why pay additional 500 eur for a 32 gigs model? But in 6 month you decide, let's say, to run some LLM locally and you can't because of ram limitation. And you can't upgrade it, so you go and buy new laptop..
2) It's cheaper to buy 8gigs laptop and then upgrade it with 32gigs when needed for like 150eur instead of overpaying 700 eur initially for a 32gig model.
3) if ram goes faulty - you have to buy a new laptop instead of just replacing the ram
Quote from: Steve1 on July 31, 2024, 09:33:04In 5 years they get outdated and adding ram will not make them modern anyway.
Compare something like mac mini 2018 with 100w 8700B and modern ryzen minipc and pretend you can make mac mini quicker and less power hungry 5.5 years later in in 2024 by shoveling in more of those outdated DDR4 2666 sticks. Same with laptops, how many ram are you going to add to crappy hot 3hr-on-battery intel machine to make it great again.
I'm tired of "soldered ram is bad".
You replied to vladteapa and missed the whole crucial part, I'll
B and
U it:
Quote from: vladteapa on July 31, 2024, 09:17:31No soldered RAM laptops will sell "like crazy", at their current prices, no matter the OS they're running.
Steve1, is it cheaper to buy the lowest possible config (or even without RAM at all, like you can with Framework or with XMG/Schenker for example), and then add your own, or pay insane premium OEM "taxes" where for each +8 GB you can get +64 GB on the regular market?
Check the Crucial 32GB DDR5-4800, 32 GB stick goes for around 85€ here in Europe. I'll take Apple here for comparison, nothing against Apple but they are arguably the most transparent with their prices so that's the reason; 14 M3 Pro with 1 TB SSD, I'll keep everything the same but just add more RAM:
- 8 GB: 1600€
- 16 GB: 1878€ (+278€)
- 18 GB: 1994€ (+116€)
- 24 GB: 2220€ (+226€)
- 36 GB: 2579€ (+359€)
- 48 GB: skipped this one because there is some current promo ongoing
- 64 GB: 4109€ (+1530€)
So to get 64 GB + 1 TB you pay +2509€ more! That's 39.20€ per GB of RAM.
Then back to that previously mentioned Crucial 32GB DDR5-4800 for 85€; double that and you get 64 GB for 170€ total, 2.65€ per GB or RAM.
"Just" 14.8 times cheaper upgrade. Do you get 14.8 times faster laptop with soldered RAM? Do you get 14.8 times longer batter life with soldered RAM? Rhetorical questions.
Same applies for storage...
I mean, for the premium of +2509€ to upgrade to 64 GB RAM model, you can build a great and very powerful desktop with more RAM,
plus instead of buying a base model M3 Pro 8 GB you get an M3 Air 16 GB for on the go, to get great battery life - and have about 200€ left to keep.
Quote from: Dan6 on July 31, 2024, 10:39:041) It's not flexible, you have to estimate today how much ram you'll need in next 2+ years. But today you only use browser on your laptop and even 16gigs is enough, so why pay additional 500 eur for a 32 gigs model? But in 6 month you decide, let's say, to run some LLM locally and you can't because of ram limitation. And you can't upgrade it, so you go and buy new laptop..
Expectation - today you are only using a browser and tomorrow you are a top coder running 10 docker containers and LLM and 2 VMs.
Reality - you always can estimate how much ram you need and/or if you are stupid just ask online or go with today's "default value" 16-32.
Quote from: Dan6 on July 31, 2024, 10:39:04It's cheaper to buy 8gigs laptop and then upgrade it with 32gigs when needed for like 150eur instead of overpaying 700 eur initially for a 32gig model.
Pick a laptop that doesn't require 700eur for 32gb, there's lots for every budget today, get xiaomi if you don't have money for apple or surface.
Quote from: Dan6 on July 31, 2024, 10:39:04if ram goes faulty - you have to buy a new laptop instead of just replacing the ram
These stories about "faulty ram" happen maybe in 5 laptops out of 10 thousands, and it's usually some chinese noname ram user bought to save money or something badly overclocked.
Quote from: Worgarthe on July 31, 2024, 10:48:05Steve1, is it cheaper to buy the lowest possible config
As i've said, get a xiaomi, their base 32G config is dirt cheap.
Quote from: Worgarthe on July 31, 2024, 10:48:05skipped this one because there is some current promo ongoing
Very convenient skip, so why not get a promo lol, just because it doesn't fit into your "theory"? There's also a ton of apple refurbs.
Play with the money you have, there are always options. I don't accept "i want to save" argument as valid.
Quote from: Worgarthe on July 31, 2024, 10:48:05- 8 GB: 1600€
- 16 GB: 1878€ (+278€)
- 18 GB: 1994€ (+116€)
- 24 GB: 2220€ (+226€)
- 36 GB: 2579€ (+359€)
- 48 GB: skipped this one because there is some current promo ongoing
- 64 GB: 4109€ (+1530€)
Is there even 14 inch M3 Pro with more ram than 36Gb? Looks like you were jumping over to M3 Max 40 core and conveniently ignored the fact you are paying for top CPU "ahmagad +1530 eur ahmagad".
Quote from: batury on July 31, 2024, 10:55:12Quote from: Worgarthe on July 31, 2024, 10:48:05skipped this one because there is some current promo ongoing
Very convenient skip, so why not get a promo lol, just because it doesn't fit into your "theory"? There's also a ton of apple refurbs.
Yeah I'm well-aware that thinking is too difficult these days, it's summer after all so brain tends to throttle, so here's the answer - because 48 GB is still far more expensive than 2x 32 GB stick even with the promo. It is 2995€ on that promo, so still +416€ more over the 36 GB model. 416€ for 12 GB, or 340€ for 128 GB? Choices, choices...
Quote from: batury on July 31, 2024, 10:55:12Play with the money you have, there are always options. I don't accept "i want to save" argument as valid.
Sure, you see perfect sense to pay 2500€ for 64 GB, many people don't and they will rather go with shelling 170€ for the same capacity. All fair for everyone.
Quote from: Worgarthe on July 31, 2024, 11:08:57I'm well-aware that thinking is too difficult these days
Says the person who couldn't even notice he switched from M3Pro to M3Max while making his "table" and thus completely invalidated his opinion in a blink.
I agree, thinking is difficult.
Quote from: Worgarthe on July 31, 2024, 11:08:57you see perfect sense to pay 2500€ for 64 GB
Are you double downing on that stupidity or you still don't understand it's mostly price for (much) better CPU. There's no 14 M3Pro with more than 36Gb ram.
So just to explain again, this dude picked
MBP M3 8Gb for 1600 usd
compared it to top of the line unbinned
MBP M3 Max 40 core 64 Gb for 3900 usd
and claimed the difference 2400 usd is for ram. )))
And these guys tell you how to save money with a serious face.
Am I late to the party?
Gang is so eager to play "Apple card" while they can buy "Xiaomi RedmiBook something 2024 meteor lake 32G/1Tb" for 900 eur if they want cheap soldered ram and don't understand and/or like Apple prices. I laughed so hard when that guy said he would replace mac book pro m3max with a "desktop and M3 Air 16 GB". Everything you have to know about "soldered ram is bad" gang - they are generally clueless and have only two tricks, "cheaper cheaper" and "upgrade upgrade", both of which are just LOL for anyone with more than 5 active brain cells.
Soldered RAM is bad and has been bad from the beginning. There's always a ridiculous premium markup going for the next tier and it's a recipe for more e-waste.
16GB on Windows machines with integrated graphics, is bad for anything above light office work and browsing the web. I'm using 2 laptops, one with 16GB and one with 32GB, and it's a very different experience when I go beyond light office work and browsing.
Quote from: batury on July 31, 2024, 10:55:12Quote from: Dan6 on July 31, 2024, 10:39:041) It's not flexible, you have to estimate today how much ram you'll need in next 2+ years. But today you only use browser on your laptop and even 16gigs is enough, so why pay additional 500 eur for a 32 gigs model? But in 6 month you decide, let's say, to run some LLM locally and you can't because of ram limitation. And you can't upgrade it, so you go and buy new laptop..
Expectation - today you are only using a browser and tomorrow you are a top coder running 10 docker containers and LLM and 2 VMs.
Reality - you always can estimate how much ram you need and/or if you are stupid just ask online or go with today's "default value" 16-32.
Quote from: Dan6 on July 31, 2024, 10:39:04It's cheaper to buy 8gigs laptop and then upgrade it with 32gigs when needed for like 150eur instead of overpaying 700 eur initially for a 32gig model.
Pick a laptop that doesn't require 700eur for 32gb, there's lots for every budget today, get xiaomi if you don't have money for apple or surface.
Quote from: Dan6 on July 31, 2024, 10:39:04if ram goes faulty - you have to buy a new laptop instead of just replacing the ram
These stories about "faulty ram" happen maybe in 5 laptops out of 10 thousands, and it's usually some chinese noname ram user bought to save money or something badly overclocked.
Quote from: Worgarthe on July 31, 2024, 10:48:05Steve1, is it cheaper to buy the lowest possible config
As i've said, get a xiaomi, their base 32G config is dirt cheap.
Quote from: Worgarthe on July 31, 2024, 10:48:05skipped this one because there is some current promo ongoing
Very convenient skip, so why not get a promo lol, just because it doesn't fit into your "theory"? There's also a ton of apple refurbs.
Play with the money you have, there are always options. I don't accept "i want to save" argument as valid.
Nah, you don't even try to understand. Not always life is so predictable to estimate. I never had carrier changes or any courses taken? So your approach is to buy max ram all the time.. And no, I don't want some cheap laptop, I want Surface and it's not even available in my region with 32gigs.. so what? I should fly to US because I want good laptop with 32gigs?
Quote from: Dan6 on July 31, 2024, 14:58:31I want Surface and it's not even available in my region with 32gigs.. so what? I should fly to US because I want good laptop with 32gigs?
He didn't tell you anything about "max ram", he has told you "today's default value is 16-32" and you want surface with soldered ram! 32!! so why did you even write your message. Some kind of a weird way of confirming your opponent was right.
Quote from: vladteapa on July 31, 2024, 14:04:2416GB on Windows machines with integrated graphics, is bad for anything above light office work and browsing the web. I'm using 2 laptops, one with 16GB and one with 32GB, and it's a very different experience when I go beyond light office work and browsing.
I kinda have to agree now you guys are clueless.
I'm seeing comments about the 16GB Surface and its high price of $2,000, well if you look you have better alternatives with the MINISFORUM V3, watch it on YouTube and you'll see the difference and you'll only spend $1,200. The difference is huge not only in price but also in performance and in the iGPU where RDNA 3 is superior to Intel Iris Xe.
Minisforum bots are worse than t-shirt bots on X
sigh
I'm sorry but it would appear that many of you live in a FAR DIFFERENT world/reality than I do as for +40yrs each and every company I ever worked for PROVIDED any and all tools & equipment needed (IE: read COMPUTERS) to do whatever job they were asking & paying me for.
Personally the countless desktops and laptops I've owned I've NEVER had a RAM module fail. While I'd agree that ALL OEM's place a premium on RAM & storage (some more than others) shoppers can save sizeable amounts of $$ if they can do upgrades themselves.
With the above said even 8GB/128GB is plenty for the majority of people. As an example at a company that employs >100K <%10 need 32GB and <%2 need >=64GB to do their jobs. :)
Quote from: GeorgeS on July 31, 2024, 21:38:48While I'd agree that ALL OEM's place a premium on RAM
People here referred many times to Xiaomi with cheap soldered ram yet everyone has a blind spot for it and focuses on Apple and Microsoft for absolutely no reason.
Quote from: George on July 31, 2024, 15:07:01Quote from: Dan6 on July 31, 2024, 14:58:31I want Surface and it's not even available in my region with 32gigs.. so what? I should fly to US because I want good laptop with 32gigs?
He didn't tell you anything about "max ram", he has told you "today's default value is 16-32" and you want surface with soldered ram! 32!! so why did you even write your message. Some kind of a weird way of confirming your opponent was right.
Why, no, I don't want Surface with soldered ram, I want Surface with swappable ram! Read through entire thread.. It wasn't reply to his first statement.. I probably had to cut the quotes to avoid misunderstanding. I replied specifically to this statement:
"Pick a laptop that doesn't require 700eur for 32gb, there's lots for every budget today, get xiaomi if you don't have money for apple or surface."
And my point is that swappable ram is good, because I could just buy 16 gigs surface (or any other laptop I like) and upgrade ram to any amount I need and do not limit my search by ram. Guys, swappable ram isn't about "saving money" as Apple taught you..
And yeah, it's just an example of why swappable ram is good from my previous experience. I have no intention to buy any laptop now.
Quote from: Dan6 on August 05, 2024, 17:40:27I don't want Surface with soldered ram, I want Surface with swappable ram
Lol
So soldered ram is "bad" just because he can't cheap out on hardware anymore and keeps ignoring the fact xiaomi has cheap soldered ram, because he wants surface he can't afford.
When doing efficiency tests, you should use efficient examples of the respective chips.
Comparing Shenker XMG is a bizarre choice. The hp probook with 7840hs can match m3 pro in cinebench efficiency test, but the results for 7840hs on this site are an aggregate including mini pcs... same goes for 8000 series, but the options aren't as good.
But you used an optimal laptop choice for meteor lake...
Atleast on a test like this use the right kind of laptops man...
Otherwise, interesting article, can't wait to see halo convertible options, but I'd love that proart foldy. (>Digital painter man)
I just noticed something (me and a friend are checking out why there are no 370 handhelds yet and if the 370 represents the high tdp model. From what I can see 15w=50% of 80w performance, which would suggest this is optimal at low limits.)
According to this according to the graphs the 370 gets 20 points per watt vs M3 28 and MP pro omitted for some reason, but according to the TDP range testing, it can achieve 621pnts in CB24 at 15w vs M3 601 points at 20w, which would mean it runs more efficient in multi core than even the M3, but does the tuning utility cap the the PL to 15w or does it allow for variation?
Only custom built desktop is left where we can add RAM or any other component as per our requirement.
Almost all of the manufacturers are going the route of everything soldered for better or worse. And those who are not doing it now will do it later.
Soldered RAM does bring benefit but it is expensive in the long run in case if one wanted to increase RAM for new requirements.
Personally I have built a desktop and every components are of my choice and since it is a desktop so no need to worry about thermal headroom, battery, upgrade ability etc.
Using the iPad Pro for portability (accessing the windows desktop via remote desktop).
But this workflow is not for everyone. So plan out accordingly and don't hope for the manufacturers to listen customers need. They will pump out products whether anyone likes it or not. Find out what works for you in a given time period and implement otherwise move on. Don't wait.