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Ok, now do a test on a bigger control group from all manufacturers.

So in 8 years you have to pay half of EV car price again because it lost 30%+ of range
Noice

Heard of an engine replacement???

Quote from: Anononon on July 18, 2024, 17:31:56Heard of an engine replacement???

Haven't heard of gas tank replacement for half car's cost. EV drives also need replacement and aren't cheaper than engine.

So does that mean Tesla should increase their warrantee to let's say 15 years 250k miles? Cause their stock price would climb cause more people wouldn't be worried about the battery. Imagine any time mentions battery breaking (ie engine failure) and you say 15 year 250k mile warranty. Don't worry about it Tesla has it covered. That would inspire confidence. Tesla needs to get their balls back this is one way to do it.

For the sake of easy math, let's say an EV with a 100kWh battery pack loses 25% range after X years. To charge the battery to what the car thinks is 100%, from 0%. Does it take 75kWh or 100kWh?

MY friend who got a 2014 Tesla S just have her battery replaced for $19,000 at dealership.  ONly got 68k+ miles on it.

Quote from: Casey on July 18, 2024, 18:27:28For the sake of easy math, let's say an EV with a 100kWh battery pack loses 25% range after X years. To charge the battery to what the car thinks is 100%, from 0%. Does it take 75kWh or 100kWh?

That's a good question.  My educated guess would be that it would take 75kWh, because the battery is storing the energy, not generating it, and any losses from the 100kWh have to go somewhere; Thermodynamics and all that.  Just like a tired power tool battery, you can tell when they have lost significant capacity because it charges too quickly.

Quote from: Casey on July 18, 2024, 18:27:28For the sake of easy math, let's say an EV with a 100kWh battery pack loses 25% range after X years. To charge the battery to what the car thinks is 100%, from 0%. Does it take 75kWh or 100kWh?

75kWh - look for YouTube representations of battery imbalance and they will explain it exactly.

Quote from: Denis Y on July 18, 2024, 19:54:55MY friend who got a 2014 Tesla S just have her battery replaced for $19,000 at dealership.  ONly got 68k+ miles on it.

It's a 2014 model. Battery pack quality has come a long way from those days. There are 2022 F-150 lightnings with 100k on the battery and only 3% capacity loss. The next generation of batteries will likely have virtually no measurable loss during the first 100k miles covered.

Quote from: jkhjhjbj on July 18, 2024, 17:36:04

Quote from: Anononon on July 18, 2024, 17:31:56Heard of an engine replacement???

Haven't heard of gas tank replacement for half car's cost. EV drives also need replacement and aren't cheaper than engine.

So many things are wrong in your perception I don't even know where to start to explain but I'll give it a try.

1. Comparing the battery with a gas tank? Really?
2. Not half the cost in the slightest. A 3rd party battery repair is £5k, a Tesla repair is £10k (4 years warranty) and a brand new replacement £15k (8 years warranty) compare that with the cost of a new model S round it to £100k for the sake of argument, that's 5%, 10% and respectively 15%.
3. Drive units are going strong at roughly 500k miles per unit. Granted the 1st iteration had a cooling system poor design, but 2015 motors and onwards had that rectified. Need I say anything about ICE engines?

For perspective I got myself a second hand Model S 85. 11% degradation after 9.3 years. So far it's done 8k miles in 3 months and calculated to average fuel prices in the UK I've saved £1.8k that otherwise I would of spent on fuel to travel the same distance. That's 12.86% of how much I paid for the car. If I would have another 15k-20k I would buy another one just because of the sheer value of it.

And another thing, when you hear someone who's got an EV banging on about EV this and EV that, we're really not trying to "brainwsh" any1. We just can't believe how good it is and want all other people around us to benefit from it. Maybe we should just say that all EVs are s***, don't buy them so that we can get a lower price on the next one. My Model S will never be up for sale again that's for sure and in the event of some1 smashing into me, I will just buy it back from the insurance company and repair it myself. That's how good of a work horse it is.

Quote from: Denis Y on July 18, 2024, 19:54:55MY friend who got a 2014 Tesla S just have her battery replaced for $19,000 at dealership.  ONly got 68k+ miles on it.

That just sounds like a poor understanding of how Li-Ion battery works and 0 care taken by owner. Keeping it plugged in at 100% is what would do that to the battery specially if it is rarely run.

I found that out on my first electric skateboard, always plugged unless I would take it for a ride. I could see the degradation with every ride, from 8 miles when new to about 3.5 miles after 7 months. My current skateboard has a home made battery with a range of 42 miles. Degradation over the 3 years I had it, is 3% so far.

Quote from: L on July 18, 2024, 03:49:00Ok, now do a test on a bigger control group from all manufacturers.

If you look out on the interwebs you'll see a running graph of all the Teslas that have been sold (as long as they have agreed to the T&C's for sharing data) and what's the degradation on them.

Quote from: jkhjhjbj on July 18, 2024, 14:37:35So in 8 years you have to pay half of EV car price again because it lost 30%+ of range
Noice

Well you don't really have even if you lose 50% capacity if your comute is still 60 miles one way you can still use it as your daily. In other words if I have a model S 100. That means it has 100 kWh usable when it hits 30% degradation it has 70kWh usable. Guess what you get in a new Model S 70? Exactly, 70kWh usable battery.

Needless to say when you buy a Model S 60, not many sold but there's still some out there 🤣

I really don't care. If the nerdy Tesla people can guarantee a reasonable mileage/life from the battery pack then ordinary people like me will buy then but if not we won't.

Quote from: jkhjhjbj on July 18, 2024, 14:37:35So in 8 years you have to pay half of EV car price again because it lost 30%+ of range
Noice

rofl. Have you owned a car at any point in your life ? Show me one vehicle that reach those miles with no intervention to the engine or transmission . Over the course of 430,000 miles just oil changes every 10,000 miles will cost a minimum of $13,000, brake pads and rotors will be a few extra k and of course you NEED to do a serpentine belt or chain replacement at least once. If you count the savings in running costs too you can probably buy a another new Model S compared to any combustion vehicle.

ICE cars all have reduced gas mileage over time as well. Test your 2004 Honda and you'll likely find it lost 15%. Lots of reasons for this, especially in a machine with thousands of moving parts.

Hi all,

Keep it in perspective, it only show cases one Tesla. Let's look at the overall life cycle of battery degradation. We need to compare across a larger test case, not one.
You cannot take anything read here as fact. Ice engines are proven, l own a Toyota and have 460000 km with all original engine and transmission. Besides, you still need to maintain the battery pack and the article doesn't cover how the vehicle was charged. So this report is not worth anything. How do you know if the battery pack has been replaced? Did you inspect the vehicle yourself? I go only of what l have experienced and used, until then, this article is nothing but words and has no relevance, either than convincing you why EVs are worth buying. Come and see me when your battery pack fails or needs replacing? Out of pocket $20,000.00

How do we know your claims of mileage and original engine and transmission are not lies? You exemplify the problem we have today. Lack of trust. People only will believe what they already believe to be true.

Quote from: jkhjhjbj on July 18, 2024, 14:37:35So in 8 years you have to pay half of EV car price again because it lost 30%+ of range
Noice

Except gas vehicles have really bad maintenance problems.  Their motor camshafts can lock up, and thats a common issue.

This article brought to by Tesla. lol

First, why are you wearing a face mask, while standing in front of a pristine mountain lake? What do you think you'll catch out there?
Second, you paint with broad strokes with your assumptions based on a one off vehicle. The experience of this one car is not indicative of all Teslas let alone all EVs. And your comment that ICE vehicles have frequent (mostly true) and expensive (not necessarily true) service requirements shows your bias. A new motor for an ICE vehicle is about $10K. A battery for an EV is easily $30K, and are required more often than you let on.
Lastly is your presumption that 180 or 250 miles would meet most, if not all our needs. You have no idea what my driving requirements, needs are so who are you to tell me this spec would be acceptable? Maybe for many city dwellers that don't venture far from home. But not "most" by far.
Also, EVs are not the green machines the coolaid drinkers make them out to be either.

Quote from: Denis Y on July 18, 2024, 19:54:55MY friend who got a 2014 Tesla S just have her battery replaced for $19,000 at dealership.  ONly got 68k+ miles on it.

That's why independent shops are opening the packs and just replacing the few bad cells for a fraction of the cost.

Quote from: Yotizio on July 19, 2024, 02:21:48ICE cars all have reduced gas mileage over time as well. Test your 2004 Honda and you'll likely find it lost 15%. Lots of reasons for this, especially in a machine with thousands of moving parts.

Yes, but there are gas stations every couple of miles. By comparison there are only 2 tesla chargers in my country, half of the other chargers are not working. So chances to be left out of juice for 300 mile radius are actually quite high. You will most likely have to spend your last 50 miles or so desperately wandering from charging site to charging site. Not having the ability to charge at home, and having to spend at least an hour to charge at a station, makes EVs unpractical at the moment, even as a in city daily driver.

Quote from: Casey on July 18, 2024, 18:27:28For the sake of easy math, let's say an EV with a 100kWh battery pack loses 25% range after X years. To charge the battery to what the car thinks is 100%, from 0%. Does it take 75kWh or 100kWh?

75KWh the battery loses capacity

Quote from: Michael p on July 19, 2024, 01:03:47Over the course of 430,000 miles just oil changes every 10,000 miles will cost a minimum of $13,000

lol what is this price for oil change. Sipping cash year to year is different from out of pocket right here right now 20K.

Quote from: Michael p on July 19, 2024, 01:03:47Have you owned a car at any point in your life ?

You totally haven't

Quote from: Denis Y on July 18, 2024, 19:54:55MY friend who got a 2014 Tesla S just have her battery replaced for $19,000 at dealership.  ONly got 68k+ miles on it.

Because the article hides the fact it's mostly not a "distance" degradation, it's "age" degradation. And it will be way worse if your country has both hot summers and cold winters.
As for distance degradation, mechanically this tesla is basically almost totaled.

Brian,

Couldn't agree more.  It very hard to trust anyone wearing a mask outside next to a mountain.

The trust failure point was the author stating that no maintenance was required for 430k miles.

That's absurd. The usage of this Tesla? Taxi. That means plenty of stop & go city traffic. Lots of punishing  conditions. Most tires last no more than 60k miles before needing to be changed. Same for brake pads, rotors, and even suspension (shocks & struts) usually within 120k ~ 200k miles.

Also 1 case is no foundation to lay sweeping positive claims about EV battery & motor endurance. Let's see the full range -- those that did remarkably well and those that didn't. Then check percentages.

I bought my 2015 model S as certified preowned.  Tesla knocked $60000 off of the original price of $100,000 and gave me a brand new 4 year, 50,000 mile warranty.  And it has free supercharging for the life of the car.  I bought it with 46k mikes and now it has 125k miles.  The model S broke car and drivers rating system, scoring 125 on a 100 point scale.  I've saved over $15000 in gas in the first 4 years and it still does 0 to 60 in 4 seconds.  It also averages over 100 mpge even in our -30 degree winters here in upstate NY.  I will never sell this car because it's one of the best cars ever made. Fully charged it shows 245 range and when it was new (85d) it was 270.  BTW, find another car that gets that mileage, accelerates that quickly, gets free supercharging and can fit a full size treadmill (new in the box) in the back. 

degradation happens a lot faster in extreme weather whether it's extremely hot or cold, ever put a battery in the freezer? Just saying...🤡🌏

Devil's advocate:

Have a 2000 Honda Civic.  It wins no awards in power, acceleration, technology.  Spent $1500 in 2017 for it used, one owner.  It burns oil, so we put in a quart every month or so.  Normal filter changes.  Takes 10 minutes. Gas is something like $600-$800/year.  There isn't one EV charger between work/home, the vast majority of our use of the car. We don't have home charger(obviously)

In the space of that purchase it has gotten us to every destination.  Had a new clutch a few years ago.

Now, at the same time, I have some stock that I own that I *could* have gone out and bought an EV with.  I've been very, very close to doing so.  Every time, though, I think about selling that stock, I scratch my head and reconsider, because the car just works.

The stock, not to be a braggart, has gone up significantly.  Enough now to buy pretty much any EV on the market right now.  I'd have faster acceleration!  I'd have cool new tech (most of which gets in the way of driving, which I rather enjoy!)  I like technology, also, I just feel a lot of the technology out today...gets in the way of the experience!

So, not getting a new car has vastly improved my quality of life.  I know this isn't typical of technology sites, to praise not getting technology, I'm just saying that there is an entire different perspective where people live and are happy with what they already own, as well as it may not always be financially a good idea to just spend money on whatever appeals to the frontal lobe of your brain.

Quote from: Romeo on July 18, 2024, 21:37:28

Quote from: Denis Y on July 18, 2024, 19:54:55MY friend who got a 2014 Tesla S just have her battery replaced for $19,000 at dealership.  ONly got 68k+ miles on it.

That just sounds like a poor understanding of how Li-Ion battery works and 0 care taken by owner. Keeping it plugged in at 100% is what would do that to the battery specially if it is rarely run.

I found that out on my first electric skateboard, always plugged unless I would take it for a ride. I could see the degradation with every ride, from 8 miles when new to about 3.5 miles after 7 months. My current skateboard has a home made battery with a range of 42 miles. Degradation over the 3 years I had it, is 3% so far.

I've owned my board for over 5 years and the battery has suffered a degradation of 0% since I got it, and is powered by a 160lb carbon based battery (me). It also has infinite range and never needs to be plugged in. I have a regular longboard.

I bought a 2019 model 3 and put about 80k miles on it. I have about 6% battery degradation and have replaced the tires 2x and filled the washer fluid about 10x. That's it, I thought I would need to replace the wiper blades but haven't needed to do that. I asked a mechanic to measure the break pads to see when I needed to replace those and they have about 90% of the original material left. I drive in the snow, but I have to say our summers are not that hot.

We also super charge it twice a month.

You should consider yourself LUCKY. Iwas an early adopter of Tesla being number 1274~, and when I got rid of car 11 years later (this past January), with around 105k miles was on THIRD battery pak, and even that was only accepting about an 85% charge.

I'm a true tech geek and the one thing that most people forget is that a vast majority of Countries use fossil fuels to generate power so end of line EVs seem clean but never will eliminate the
Carbon footprint and environmental damage that producing EVs have done to Mother Earth. ICEs are so efficient now that a hybrid would be much better solution in the short term as battery technology catches up with infrastructures and power generation such as nuclear or fusion energy as best alternative. So engineers put your noses to the grindstone. A new technology needs to be developed! Just saying!

Hi when a writer uses made up words, I don't trust the story. To quote "it is still more than sufficiently performant for daily use." Performant is not a word.
It also reflects badly on notebookchat who clearly either doesn't care or doesn't read what they post.

Quote from: Bill on July 20, 2024, 19:01:48Hi when a writer uses made up words, I don't trust the story. To quote "it is still more than sufficiently performant for daily use." Performant is not a word.
It also reflects badly on notebookchat who clearly either doesn't care or doesn't read what they post.

"Performant" is a word. Please buy a dictionary before you try to discredit people on the internet, Bill.

Quote from: Bill on July 20, 2024, 19:01:48Hi when a writer uses made up words, I don't trust the story. To quote "it is still more than sufficiently performant for daily use." Performant is not a word.
It also reflects badly on notebookchat who clearly either doesn't care or doesn't read what they post.

It is jargon, pretty standard to use jargon in any language.

Definition:  Capable of or characterized by an adequate or excellent level of performance or efficiency.

Get ready for a bunch of poor use grammar and punctuation . I could care less how intelligent you think I am. I am a professional equipment servicer for the past 35 years and I've been around EVS for about 50 years not including the electric mini bikes and go karts I had as a kid. Lead acid and a Bosch Volkswagen starter would kick the seat of any brand new Montgomery Ward Mini bike that dared take me on.. I have hated Big Oil since I was pushing my car in a gas line every other day to get five gallons in the 70s. So cut to now, every time Big Oil finds five more reasons to screw us a few more people stray in the dream of releasing their grip on our balls. Well those of us that have them. This article brings out just regurgitates every ridiculous argument like, oh there's not enough available in the pack I might want to drive 500 miles today, oh it's got a long tailpipe and the power company still has to burn fossil fuel to make it happen, on and on and on. Seriously live in the middle of nowhere and drive a thousand miles a day to work. Just drop trying to convince everybody else that it doesn't work for them. And by the way I don't care if you're great grandchildren can't breathe, it's obvious you don't. Just save the BS for somebody else that wants to swallow it. I drive what used to be a good vehicle and is now complicated disposable junk manufactured by Toyota. Ask me how I know? I did all the service on all of our service trucks and Toyota went to garbage in a 1983.5. If somebody would make a reasonable small electric truck it would be in my hands. So whenever they jack up oil I drive the truck less. I use it for no personal driving anymore. I use my electric lithium scooter which has been Flawless every day for me for 2 years now and I use it for work at least 6 to 8 Miles. Nights and weekends I drive my electric car which is old old school. It used to be junk lead acid and is now lithium. My gas bill reduced by several hundred dollars a year. If I go up to the grocery store and Shop and come back in the electric it costs me 8 cents to refill it to 80%. I have a KW hour meter on the home charger and I know how to do math so save it. Recharging stations will be the ultimate end of the efficiency and inexpensive operation with an electric vehicle . Big Oil will be dispensing your electricity to you and at this point right now that 8-cent recharge at an Electrify America station would cost me about 40 cents. Lithiums are reliable. I simply do not keep the them chock-full and I do not run them down flat. I leave them in the middle and they are extremely reliable. Now don't get me wrong, The Tesla is a fine machine but it is a fine machine for the wealthy. Still no reasonable small 200 MI range car for the masses. Oh yes check that there are but they are not allowed in the United States. Besides nobody in their right mind and any other Nation on this planet would stack $40,000 worth of cameras screens and garbage in in order to make it cost $60 to 80k. A disposable vehicle for 80 to $100,000? Seriously everyone has got something to learn. Cars do not need to be spaceships and anybody that builds spaceships and cars is obviously going to hand you one that is decked out like the bridge on Star trek. At the end of it all I just must point out everybody writing here must be very unusual, nobody keeps a car here longer than 2 to 4 years so what the heck do you care what kind of a lifespan anything has. They're all disposable and they should be priced accordingly. So there you go the old EV nutty fart tosses out the rant. Everybody used to call me ahead of the Curve. Now they won't even turn their head and their eyeballs just lean sideways to look at what I'm rolling in.

Quote from: O on July 19, 2024, 23:29:35I've owned my board for over 5 years and the battery has suffered a degradation of 0% since I got it, and is powered by a 160lb carbon based battery (me). It also has infinite range and never needs to be plugged in. I have a regular longboard.

Well then, you can then go tell your family that you are a 160lb carbon based battery and that you have infinite range, so they can save some money by not giving you any food and that they can put you to work 24/7 without any rest or sleep. You also don't suffer any degradation from age or overwork

Are you really ready to be a 160lb carbon based battery with infinite range that never needs to be plugged in?

Quote from: Naysayer on July 20, 2024, 16:37:43I'm a true tech geek and the one thing that most people forget is that a vast majority of Countries use fossil fuels to generate power so end of line EVs seem clean but never will eliminate the
Carbon footprint and environmental damage that producing EVs have done to Mother Earth. ICEs are so efficient now that a hybrid would be much better solution in the short term as battery technology catches up with infrastructures and power generation such as nuclear or fusion energy as best alternative. So engineers put your noses to the grindstone. A new technology needs to be developed! Just saying!

For a tech geek you sure know nothing about technology. Sure, the majority of countries electricity is fossil fuel based, but even then a powerplant+EV is much more efficient. On a US grid the break even is about a year in terms of footprint and as EV supply chain and manufacturing becomes more efficient, platform becomes more EV optimized, and grid gets cleaner the footprint gap gets smaller and smaller

A hybrid is only a better option in terms of footprint if you have a grid powered by 100% coal which these days is very little places. That isn't to say there is no room for hybrids here and there, especially plugin hybrids. But that doesn't get in the way of having BEVs which suite the majority just fine already (just cost needs to come down)

The biggest barrier right now is economies of scale, not technology. The tech is already there. And you only get to economies of scale through mass production

PS Nuclear fission is too expensive, and practical commercial nuclear fusion is a good 100 years away. They aren't needed anyways, the grid only needs to grow 1% a year to facilitate EVs

Total electricity use by EVs through February 2024 was 1.58 million megawatt hours (MWh), compared with 1.04 million MWh during the same period in 2023, according to the U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA).





That 52% rise in EV electricity use from early 2023 exceeded the 40% growth rate posted in 2023 from January-February 2022, and indicates that the impact from rapidly expanding EV sales continues to increase in electricity markets.Estimates suggest the U.S. will need an additional 15 to 27 terawatt hours of electricity by 2050 Domestic electricity demand in 2022 is expected to increase up to 18% by 2030 and 38% by 2035, according to an analysis by the Rapid Energy About 60% of this electricity generation was from fossil fuels—coal, natural gas, petroleum, and other gases. About 19% was from nuclear energy, and about 21% was from renewable energy sources

Renewables make 30% of energy, according to FERC.

Renewables accounted for 94.23% of all new generating capacity added during the month of May.

The trend is renewables moving forward. Coal and other dirty sources are on a trajectory for replacement within 10-15 years at current pace.

The problem with these "case studies" is that we all have owned laptops, tablets and phones.  The car batteries are EXACTLY THE SAME as those devices.  And we all know that after 3 years the battery is DOA. I'll take first hand experience over propaganda any day.

Quote from: TimH3141259 on July 21, 2024, 21:37:36The problem with these "case studies" is that we all have owned laptops, tablets and phones.  The car batteries are EXACTLY THE SAME as those devices.  And we all know that after 3 years the battery is DOA. I'll take first hand experience over propaganda any day.

Talk about ignorance, your logic is the same as saying humans live only 2 years because mice are also mammals and live only 2 years

No, the batteries in laptops, tablets and phones are NOT exactly the same as the ones in EVs. Lithium ion is just a generic name for multiple different batteries.

Our electronic devices most often use LCO chemistry which is known to be energy dense but shorter lifespan. Where as EVs tend to use NCA, NMC and LFP chemistry and in some rare cases LTO. These chemistry are less energy dense, but have longer lifespan, especially LFP and LTO. LTO can easily last 50+ years

On top of that, there are other things that kill your battery in a laptop, tablets and phones. Things like:

1. EV batteries have thermal management systems that keep the battery cool. The #1 reason for laptop battery failure is the heat. It is why it sucks so much they stopped making removable laptop batteries, because you can easily triple the life of your battery of you take it out when using the laptop in desktop mode. This is also why Nissan Leaf has been famous for having batteries die early, cause they refuse to include a passive liquid coolant

To compare it to ICE cars, try running your ICE engine without coolant and see how long it lasts. If you are unlucky, your engine could break within minutes. That is what laptops, tablets and phones are, engines running without coolant. They just don't get hot enough to break within minutes, but they get hot enough that the heat causes cracks lowering the lifespan of the battery

2. Batteries lifespan also depends a lot on how you cycle them, for laptops, tablets, and phones we are all used to deep cycling them, for EVs you rarely deep cycle them as you often times recharge when you get home. Best practice is to charge to around 80% unless you are going on a long trip

3. When a battery is set to 100%, it isn't actually 100%. Most set their 100% at 80-95%. Many laptop, tablet and phone manufacturers intentionally set your battery to be a higher percent which gives you longer lifespan upfront but it suffers from bigger degradation. That is because they want you to buy a new one, so called "planned obsolescence". Most come with 1 year warranty, and if you read the fine print, many often say they only give 6 month warranty on the battery!

In comparison, EVs set far more conservative numbers, because the batteries have 8-10 years warranty. So they do whatever it takes to insure the battery lasts longer than 8-10 years

But you replace a phone with 20% battery degraded after 2 years.

So these stats for a tesla are good.
8 years and 450 k km? Amazing performance from tesla. Now just change the car battery.