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I drove a Peugeot 5008 with a 1.3L turbo diesel and averaged 60 mpg. And that was around Scotland. This, doesn't seem impressive at all.  46 mpg? And that's saying that the battery was dead and you didn't get 200 of that from a wall.

Utterly stupid and pointless.
Thanks.

Quote from: Scott on July 06, 2024, 21:03:12I drove a Peugeot 5008 with a 1.3L turbo diesel and averaged 60 mpg. And that was around Scotland. This, doesn't seem impressive at all.  46 mpg? And that's saying that the battery was dead and you didn't get 200 of that from a wall.

I drive a 2011 BMW 330D and also average 60+mpg, but this is a much more impressive car with a six cylinder 250hp engine.

That is terrible economy for a diesel OR an electric. Let alone all the money spent on the conversion. I drove a VW TDI cross country (also methanol injected) on less than 2 full tanks of fuel which I believe were 16 gallons each. Blew through about 10 gallons of methanol so you do the math. This was in a modern dieselgate generation Jetta. So what... 20k or so for the car and 500 for the methanol injection.  AND..  YOU DONT HAVE TO LISTEN TO A CONSTANT DUTY DIESEL RUNNING RIGHT BEHIND THE DRIVERS SEAT!!!! Just do electric OR just do diesel. This is a terrible example of a waste-ed hybrid. 

Come on, you're comparing the mpg on econo boxes to something that would blow your doors off. Maybe they weren't driving the Tesla hard, but 46+ mpg on a car with what 500+ hp ain't that bad. I'm sure they could do better, they said it was inefficient, but for they amount of power on tap that's not bad.

Could have just bought a Toyota crown hybrid and got the same mpg and traveled in comfort,style and no stinky, diesel motor in the trunk that has to run all night to charge battery. Cheaper to plug in and charge. Defeats the purpose of electric cars.

Not chagrin though. Not them. If anyone would be chagrined it'd be the operators of that Tesla-stein

This is gross af

Is everyone just going to accept this guys claim that he averages 60mpg in his 2011 330D?

My 328d wagon does low 40s on a road trip, doesn't stink, recharges in 5 minutes at any gas station, is better built and more comfortable than any Tesla and doesn't brand me as a musk puppet.

For those saying this is stupid, this is pretty much how all EVs currently operate. The EPA mileage ratings (MPGe) for EVs calculates mileage starting with kWh in the battery. That is, it isn't a measure of energy efficiency from source to wheels on the ground. It ignores electricity generating losses, transmission losses, and battery charging losses. (This makes sense since how your electricity is generated depends on where you live. If you based MPGe on the national average, then you'd be overstating it for EV owners in areas where electricity has high losses (coal), understating it where electricity has low losses (e.g. hydro). So starting with kWh in the battery is really the only way you can come up with a MPGe figure which is correct throughout the country.)

So how much are these losses? Here's a chart of U.S. energy generation and consumption. [Edit: site won't let me post a link since this is a new account. Just search for "u.s. energy consumption by source and sector 2022".] Note the section on the electrical power sector in the bottom middle. Note that it says 65% losses. It's actually not quite this bad. The chart is used as a measure of electricity generating capacity, so to equalize renewables with fossil fuels it assigns renewables equivalent losses. i.e. If you generated 1 kWh of electricity using solar, the chart would say solar actually generated (1 kWh / 0.35) = 2.86 kWh, so that the solar distributed to end-use (after removing the 65% losses) is 1 kWh. Correcting for this, and you get that our electrical grid is about 46% efficient. For every 100 kWh of energy in the source fuel (oil, coal, gas, nuclear heat, renewable), about 46% of it becomes electricity delivered. That accounts for generating losses and transmission losses (which are about 5% if you're curious).

Charging losses fortunately have been measured by numerous Tesla owners. I've seen figures between 75% to 90% efficient. I'd say the average is about 85% efficient. i.e. To put 85 kWh into the Tesla's battery pack, you need to draw 100 kWh from the grid.

So the EPA rates the Tesla S at 120 MPGe. Multiply that by the efficiency of the electrical grid (46%) and charging efficiency (85%), and you get a real MPGe (measured as energy from the source to energy delivered to the wheels) of 46.92 MPGe if you charged it via power outlets. Barely better than the 45.69 MPG they got with a diesel generator on board.

Note that if the diesel generator (which suffered 85% losses charging the battery) had been powering the Tesla directly, it would've gotten 45.69 MPG / 0.85 = 53.75 MPG. Beating out the energy efficiency of the Tesla charged from the grid. (That's not really fair though since the peak efficiency power band of an ICE is rather narrow. You'd fall below that MPG every time you deviated from that peak, e.g. accelerating from a stop. The generator had a much easier time since it could run continuously at the efficiency peak.)

EVs are nice as an endgame tech and to reduce tailpipe emissions (though the emissions end up coming out of power plant smokestacks instead). But in terms of energy efficiency, they're rather pointless until we shift the majority of our electricity generation away from fossil fuels.

Quote from: Sherlock Holmes on July 07, 2024, 03:54:55Is everyone just going to accept this guys claim that he averages 60mpg in his 2011 330D?

I'm guessing he's in the UK. The UK uses Imperial gallons, which are bigger than U.S. gallons. So their MPG is a bit higher than U.S. MPG. 60 MPG in the UK would be equivalent to 50 MPG in the U.S.

Most other countries don't have as strict emissions limits as the U.S., which also costs U.S. vehicles some MPG. (In fact emissions delete mods seems to be rather popular among some owners wishing to improve performance and mileage.) The EPA rates the 2011 BMW 330D as 35 MPG on the highway. So without an emissions package, I wouldn't be surprised to see that go up to 45+ MPG. Close to his claimed 50 U.S. MPG (assuming he's in the UK).

How did you manage to fit a 300ltr + fuel tank to a Tesla?

This is exaple of big inefficient use of fuel/energy.

I drive 1.6 diesel engine that consume 3 liters/100km (78 MPG) on flat ground, highway speed of 100km/h (62 miles per hour).

That's efficient use of energy.

Why no one is realizing that we just need diesel engine with mile hybrid add-ons. And to wait for better more powerful and cheap batteries to be invented.

And then we can all swich to full electric transportation.

Why bother?

I drive a Japanese 800cc diesel car, I drove 3500 miles in $350 beat that Tesla !

This comment was removed by NB censorship yesterday, which means it was right on target.
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City hamsters do not understand freedom of movement, like other rights. They are all tied to the stupid scheme of house in the suburbs->work in the city->house in the suburbs. All year, except holidays. And so the whole life until retirement, if they survive...

This just shows how poor electric cars are as a real means of independent transportation.

Quote from: Anthony on July 07, 2024, 09:50:16And to wait for better more powerful and cheap batteries to be invented.

And then we can all swich to full electric transportation.

Cost is a matter of mass production, without mass production you will never get cheap.

I drove a e250 bluetec with awd that could average 46 to 47 mpg on road trips, 800 to 850 per tank. Way more than enough power. No reason we could not be driving cars getting 60mph. A small aero diesel hybrid maybe 80.

Quote from: Granturismo5280 on July 07, 2024, 18:55:32I drove a e250 bluetec with awd that could average 46 to 47 mpg on road trips, 800 to 850 per tank. Way more than enough power. No reason we could not be driving cars getting 60mph. A small aero diesel hybrid maybe 80.

Agreed.

I used to own a DieselGate 'Golf' (USA) that would regularly get ~40MPG in the city and often the same or even better on the highway/road trips with the 1.8L TDI & 6speed trans.

IMHO: it had plenty of 'power'. :)

Also IMHO: the idea of a small diesel/hybred where the diesel provided the charging+range while the electric provided the intown & low speed operation ought to be an attractive and 'killer' combo.

I'll just stick with my Camry Hybrid and get the same or better mileage using regular gasoline with an emissions control system that results in much cleaner operation.

I thought initially it was a typo and should have said 76 litres, which would have been impressive. However, 76 gallons would would take my Renault Trafic approx 3800 miles.
Those figures are not good for a electric vehicle with a donkey engine.  What was overall Weight of vehicle?

Hey Tech World, 

     I'm appalled at the lack of "pure" much less "combined" technology!
     My 1980 VW Rabbit got 58mpg on #1 jet fuel- Road and Track magazine turboed one and hit 78mpg in 1984.
     Now, my '17 Fussion 4 banger
(DOHC/EFI/Turbo) gets a rock solid 24.3 while whipping nearly every car on the road!
     Come on Kids, show Grampa some
SPUNK!

              Master Diesel tech
              Retired x3

It just shows the ignorance of human nature. Get rid of the xtra ton of dead weight from the battery pack, then you're able to install a smaller diesel engine with a transmission and drive the same amount of miles but on even much less diesel. To you all that are able to read and understand, there is nothing that compares to the Reliability and Affordability of the Dense Energy that comes from Gasoline and Diesel fuels that will get you there, back, and beyond. That is why it is used as the main source of energy. Do not let your corrupt government dictate to you what you should drive or anything else for that matter if you want to still remain a free society.

2012 dieselgate Jetta sportwagen would get 50 mpg and 40 city

This is awesome experience, every Tesla should have one than it will make sense to buy one mtsmobiletruckrepair.com

Diesel just more efficient on anything you put in even semi trucks www.mtsmobiletruckrepair.com

Did they explain what the point was?? Because there doesn't seem to be one...

Quote from: NikoB on July 07, 2024, 13:54:50This comment was removed by NB censorship yesterday, which means it was right on target.
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City hamsters ... are all tied to the stupid scheme of house in the suburbs->work in the city->house in the suburbs.

They did you a favor by removing your post, because "city hamsters" don't live in suburbia. Conflating the two is an embarrassment they tried sparing you.

What's so impressive? Basic non hybrid four bangers get 40 ish mpg easily. That's only 5 mpg less than what they are bragging about? This hybrid thing in general is a bit silly if you ask me.

I too will pretend there isn't a good sized piece of iron and steel behind my head and upper torso in this otherworldly quick car.
 Sudden stoppage and all

Quote from: David Ball on July 07, 2024, 02:20:36Could have just bought a Toyota crown hybrid and got the same mpg and traveled in comfort,style and no stinky, diesel motor in the trunk that has to run all night to charge battery. Cheaper to plug in and charge. Defeats the purpose of electric cars.

That is kinda the point... Why EV?

Not impressed.

I have a Peugeot 308SW with a 1.5 lt clean diesel.   I get around 60 mpg in 60/40 highway/city driving.  This strikes me as an overengineered, inelegant approach.

That is one third the normal fuel efficiency.  Negates the point of driving electric.

Quote from: Randy on July 08, 2024, 13:19:12It just shows the ignorance of human nature. Get rid of the xtra ton of dead weight from the battery pack, then you're able to install a smaller diesel engine with a transmission and drive the same amount of miles but on even much less diesel. To you all that are able to read and understand, there is nothing that compares to the Reliability and Affordability of the Dense Energy that comes from Gasoline and Diesel fuels that will get you there, back, and beyond. That is why it is used as the main source of energy. Do not let your corrupt government dictate to you what you should drive or anything else for that matter if you want to still remain a free society.

In fact, electric cars have a clear advantage in dense buildings with a larger number of vehicles - there are no dirty exhausts and smog, and "euro" standards and attempts to clean up the exhaust, as the "Dieselgate" scandal showed, are not feasible for car manufacturers.

Therefore, from the point of view of residents of cities and their suburbs (those same city "hamsters"), for whom everything comes down to a trip from the suburbs to work in the city and back in 99% of cases (and quite often 1(one) "fat a**" travels in a car for 4-5 seats, which should also be declared immoral behavior in countries supposedly pursuing "green" goals, but this does not exist even at the level of social condemnation, which directly speaks of duplicity or endless stupidity, greed of such societies), electric cars free them from dirty air and soil and plantations around cities/suburbs. But the price for this is the general inevitable increase in pollution of the planet, because the total environmental footprint of electric cars from obtaining raw materials/production and infrastructure support is significantly higher than that of cars with internal combustion engines. Thus, rich "elloi" in rich countries (by the way, "rich" they are already essentially fake - due to the monstrous accumulated debts of "developed" countries over the past 45 years, their real wealth remained in the 50-60s of the 20th century and before that) donate the general ecology of the planet for the sake of their private local benefits, increasing the damage to the air and the environment as a whole on the planet. That is why these trends are a priori immoral at the current level of technology. But residents of "developed" countries (the majority) always didn't care about this, because the so-called "greens" have stuck their tongues in a** when it comes to criticizing the electric car industry, because for the most part, they are pursuing the hidden private, vested interests of some circles and pushing their agenda. Everyone who is independent actually says directly that the electric car industry causes more damage to the planet's ecology than the ICE car industry.

In general, in all countries where the number of cars with internal combustion engines exceeds the threshold of 25 per 100 people, air quality drops sharply in any area where there is dense construction and a concentration of people inefficiently using private transport, but on the whole the air on the planet was cleaner. With the advent of electric cars, it will a priori become dirtier everywhere, and it will be decades before the overall level of environmental improvement becomes lower than when using a car with an internal combustion engine.

This is the key problem - selfish city dwellers in "developed" countries, who suffer from poor ecology and smog in cities and suburbs due to hundreds of millions of cars with internal combustion engines, for the sake of improving the local ecology, are ready to sacrifice worse air for everyone for decades (because for city residents, the air will become many times cleaner, but not for rural residents!), without the consent of residents living outside cities and suburbs, whose air was cleaner, but will now obviously become dirtier with the massive spread of electric cars, therefore the overall impact on the ecology of the industry in general, it will increase until technology improves several times and the impact of battery production and distribution of electrical energy decreases, its accumulation is several times the current technological capabilities.

And again the rich (more like pseudo-rich, until someone finally shouts that kings are naked) dictate the agenda to the residents of third countries (even supposedly "independent" Russia agreed to pay a tax on "environmental damage", which in itself is nonsense, which, obviously, goes in favor of the "developed" countries and strengthens their dominance) of the day, and with deliberate damage to the latter.