NotebookCHECK - Notebook Forum

What's the problem with Zen4 Phoenix? It is nowhere to be found, not even in the USA! Sane models for 7840U! And the same will happen with the virtual Zen5, sold only on paper.

We look at newegg, for example, at the end of 2023 before Christmas (sales season, damn it!!!) - and what do we see there? Several pathetic models from Lenovo and one from Acer!
Most have unsoldered memory, a measly 16GB. Most often there is one USB40 port, instead of 2 built into Zen4 Phoenix. Compare with Intel versions - there are usually 2 ports.

There is not a single business model even with 2.5k, not to mention 18" 16:10 (you can't even dream about 4k@120Hz, even in 16" with IPS - there is only a rotten AMOLED with 4k and vile low-frequency PWM), purely for the office with a normal keyboard, 2 memory slots, 2 M.2, and a bunch of other ports, including a pair of USB40 located symmetrically on the left and right, as well as usb-a Gen2 ports on the left and right. With rear power, hdmi 2.1, rj45 2.5Gbps+

Where are these models? Without discrete adapter?

Or with lpddr5 7500 (shame on Intel, it couldn't even provide 7500 in the new series!!!) but at least 32/64GB options out of the box to accelerate 780M.

Give people mass models 14, 16, 18" with 16:10 4k@120Hz with fast response and contrast from 1500:1. With symmetrical usb-a, usb40 ports - on the left and right closer to the rear edge of the laptop and in the back there is an rj45 2.5Gbps+ port , hdmi 2.1 (48Gbps) and a power port (usb-c or round) if it is strictly backwards, I don't care what type of plug it is.

With audio outputs on the left and right also symmetrically, plus an optical spdif output at the rear.

With a normal full-fledged keyboard with a full numpad in 16.18" models with a large key travel of at least 1.8 mm, with elastic tactile feedback and which can withstand intense fast touch typing for at least 5 years.

With coolers configured by a proprietary utility according to their activation threshold and speed (within safe limits), as the owner wants.

All! And sell, sell, sell! But there is NOT a single such model on the market! Amazing!!!

And a request to all manufacturers! Damn it - bring back eSATA ports to laptops!!! They are extremely important for proper full testing of new HDDs in exclusive mode under DOS in programs like HDAT2! Testing from under Windows is not suitable through, especially through a USB adapter!

If nothing changes with retail units (low hope), then it's the biggest disaster for Intel for decade.

Clearly Something wrong with the Acer Swift Go 14

All available reviews of the ZenBook 14 with Ultra 7 state that the power limits in performance mode are, in fact, 28/50W.

Only notebookcheck arrived at these 33/50W.

I believe it is an error that must be corrected...

Quote from: paviko on December 14, 2023, 21:11:36If nothing changes with retail units (low hope), then it's the biggest disaster for Intel for decade.

No, they have a 'Hindenburg Disaster' every couple of years now. For example: Running Ad's mocking Apple, they publicly saying: "We want to be Apples Fab partner."

Yeah, that is not the way to make that happen.  ;-)

Why are you comparing a Meteor Lake with a 45W/50W PL to a Ryzen 7840U with much lower power limits enforced (~15W by my estimate of your ST results)?  Also given your power consumption charts, (showing the zenbook producing higher scores than the Acer swift go at lower power consumption) why would you draw conclusions based on what appears to be a bad laptop design?

The power performance curve is usually convex upward, so this 155H measurement, which is convex downward, is quite odd.

which witcher 3 did you use. are you using the new witcher 3. I wanted to test the performance of my 1165g7 versus the new gpu in the witcher 3 but I don't know which witcher 3 was mentioned. I use some optimizations on my cpu and gpu to improve performance. im curious if it gets similar fps to the new ultra. however it should be noted that they probably should have tested with xess since that gets to run in hardware on the newer processor which is a big advantage.

@NikoB:

Because nobody cares about laptops anymore, seriously. You want a 7840U device in stock / available everywhere? Then get a Z1 Extreme handheld. Need additional ports / expansion / peripheral connectivity? Buy a docking station. Hooking up to an external 4k 120hz OLED TV would solve your display issues as well (Unlike mobile displays, they don't suffer from same low freq. PWM) And the type of people that need > 64GB ram are mostly into tech, 95% of these people just get MBP's anyway.

Take the hint, seriously. If AMD cared about laptop users they'd not be selling all their chips to handhelds. If OEMs care more, well, they'd be releasing better devices with good pricing, availability and supply. But nobody gives a sheet, so why should you?

I just tested my 1165g7. it seems like the 1.50 ghz graphics core clock on some 13th gen processor makes a big difference. in 1080p with ultra settings with hbao+ in the witcher 3 directx12 enhanced edition I get 11 fps without xess upscaling. at 900p I get 15 fps. and turning some settings down like level of detail and shadow quality but keeping screen space reflections at high. I get 17 fps. I also optimized the process with process lasso and saw about a one fps difference but it was usually at 17 fps. that being said the 1165g7 so far is better at running directx11 games anyway except in the future there wont be many of them so this is still a good benchmark for determining the performance of the igpu. I havent tested intel xess upscaling yet in the witcher 3.

when I rebooted the game I got 20 fps. then I enabled intel xess ultra quality on the 1165g7. with optimizations with throttlestop and process lasso. I got about 24 fps. still not sure if I was using directx11 mode. last time I booted I used directx12 mode. but intel xess wouldnt be available in directx11 mode I don't think so it was a pretty good result.

on an 1165g7 with intel xess ultra quality at 900p with shadows low foliage density low water low screen space reflections high level of detail low ambient occlusion off I get 24 fps. for some reason I was only getting 16 fps during one run through it looks like some settings don't apply correctly until after restarting the game. not entirely sure with ultra settings and hbao+ ambient occlusion I was getting 11 fps at 1080p. at 900p I was getting 15-16 fps. 900p isnt really much of a sacrifice and its essentially the resolution that the memory bandwidth of the igpu maxes out at in most games. at 900p with its superior xess support I bet the new ultra 155h processor gets about 40 fps but obviously it was supposed to be an apples to apples benchmark of the capabilities of the card which is fine. still at least the new igpu should be able to run city skylines 2 since its essentially just discrete graphics in an igpu form factor.

can you please test single core power efficiency for all three core types? (set process affinity)

There are allegations that Intel are seeding their review samples with faster LP-7467 "MHz" RAM than the actual retail units are getting (6400 or 5600).  Which, with iGPU performance being very sensitive to RAM subsystem performance, would potentially render reviews like these overstating the actual performance the buyer will receive ......
The day-1 review would be unable to mention this, but I hope, if true and legit retail LP-7467 versions of this SKU do not exist, this kind of unrepresentative review unit shenanigans would be added as a footnote to counter the potential for misleading buyers. And to hold deceptive sales practices to account.

It looks like Intel lied us with its efficiency shenanigans. Look how impressive was this article/presentation:
www.notebookcheck.net/Intel-reveals-Meteor-Lake-Core-Ultra-bets-on-efficiency-AI-a-new-iGPU-Intel-4-and-TSMC.752748.0.html

Now look how it really performs. The CPU performs almost the same as or even worse than last years Raptor Lake (OK). But what about efficiency promises?

Negligible efficiency difference on CPU and GPU side (above mentioned test also proves it). It is still power hungry and hot as a hell chip. Where all efficiency promises went away, Intel?

Now I understand why OEMs are angry about Intel:
www.notebookcheck.net/Laptop-OEMs-to-allegedly-shift-away-from-Intel-s-underwhelming-Meteor-Lake-and-offer-more-AMD-Ryzen-8000U-H-models.770866.0.html

The only hope is from AMD now. Let's hope it will bring something more powerful and efficient on the table with its Strix Point

What a disappointment.. Better GPU is good, same CPU performance is ok, but I expected better battery life with their new "efficiency" cores.. But looks like they are still added just for numbers in benchmarks. New AI engine? Go put it in your *!@, I mean datacenters and do what you want with them instead of making new marketing marvel out of it.

Quote from: Laptops are dead on December 15, 2023, 03:23:50Take the hint, seriously. If AMD cared about laptop users they'd not be selling all their chips to handhelds. If OEMs care more, well, they'd be releasing better devices with good pricing, availability and supply. But nobody gives a sheet, so why should you?

I already wrote in the first comment of the topic that there is and will not be any hope for AMD, because... the ratio of sold Intel vs AMD processors is 5:1 (in laptops it can be 4:1). This leaves no chance for AMD, which is dependent on supplies from TSMC/Samsung. In addition, they are forced to give a significant share of the surplus value to these companies, and Intel, as soon as it pays for the plant, takes everything for itself. The very scheme with an intermediary for SoC production excludes sufficient profit. And if you increase the price of SoC for consumers, then interest in AMD will disappear. They are interesting as long as their laptops cost the same as with Intel or are cheaper - more expensive, there is no interest.

AMD is 100% not interested in increasing market share through dumping, because it has no cache reserve and Intel diligently keeps it on a hungry leash, just so that they serve as a buffer with the antitrust authorities. No more. There is no real serious competition between Intel and AMD with the former's share being 5:1. This is all an artificial game for antimonopoly officials.

Apple could buy Intel and get all the x86 patents at once, but apparently they no longer give it power, then we would get an even bigger monster on the market vs small AMD.

The situation is simply that there is only one company on the market with its own factories and a gigantic production volume many times greater than TSMC's volume in the x86 market - Intel. It has no real competitors precisely because of its monstrous market share. All this is the fault of the US antimonopoly authorities, who deliberately allowed this situation to happen more than 10 years ago, for geopolitical purposes.

Obviously, any sensible buyer who understands the laptop market will not refuse a high-quality laptop with a 7840U at the moment, but there are simply no sane models on the market anywhere, which is what I described in the first comment. We are only discussing theoretical calculations - but in practice it is impossible to buy an interesting (adequate to progress at the end of 2023) model with Zen4 Phoenix in the 16-18" class.

Intel literally imposes its useless options on buyers, because...the ratio is 5:1 in their favor for SoC production. Well, much like a dictator creates the appearance of legitimate "democratic" elections. This is such a permanent game with the stupid, majority of the population...

in real life gpu and cpu work together , even in windows , a simple

NikoB, AMD cache -> cash?

Quote from: RobertJasiek on December 15, 2023, 15:55:59cash

Are you kidding me Robert? From the context it is obvious that we are talking about money in AMD accounts. It simply does not have them in such quantities as Apple to carry out deliberate dumping against Intel products in order to squeeze out at least 50% of the market from it, after which it will be able to consistently take much larger volumes from TSMC/Samsung, in priority mode, compared to other customers to their production lines. The higher the order volume due to a larger market share, the more important such a customer is for TSMC/Samsung and, moreover, the lower the cost of batches for AMD, which means the higher the profit per SoC copy. AMD can break this vicious circle either with a super breakthrough compared to the performance of Intel processors or by methodically squeezing market share from it, which requires a lot of money, which, alas, it does not have.

QuoteYou might think that the removal of the P-series makes it easier to find a suitable processor, but this is not the case. As mentioned before, the H-series chips now cover an even wider TDP range and customers just don't know what performance they will get.

That was the whole idea. To mislead consumers. Consumers will be reading a review of a high cost laptop of high TDP and think that the cheaper laptop having an H series chip will be offering close or even the same performance.

Quote from: whoami? on December 16, 2023, 13:01:28

QuoteYou might think that the removal of the P-series makes it easier to find a suitable processor, but this is not the case. As mentioned before, the H-series chips now cover an even wider TDP range and customers just don't know what performance they will get.

That was the whole idea. To mislead consumers. Consumers will be reading a review of a high cost laptop of high TDP and think that the cheaper laptop having an H series chip will be offering close or even the same performance.

This is not a problem of fraudulent business in general, but a problem of a society that is inadequate and does not want to do everything so that business and trade behave in a civilized and adequate manner. And the information about the product was complete.

Specifically for the laptop market, this means that society, in each individual country, must demand from regulators that they require, at the trade level, to report, for those same laptops, the actual consumption levels in each selected factory profile and the expected performance level based on a set of publicly known tests (for example, developed by government agencies with source codes). As an example. But in general, an accurate description of the product, which excludes fraud with the characteristics of a specific model of any product on the market. So that it is impossible to sell under one product article a completely different product in terms of characteristics and quality - everything must be clear within the framework of the mandatory tolerances that manufacturers are required to publish for each new product.

The buyer has the right to know what he is buying. Any attempts to deliberately confuse the buyer or hide important information from the product (and this is exactly what happens all the time in the market) must be severely dealt with by state regulatory authorities. This is precisely the goal of such bodies - to prevent lawlessness on the part of uncontrolled and unprincipled businesses. And constantly develop and maintain minimum requirements (and what information must be disclosed to the buyer during the sale) for different groups of goods

Try to obtain from manufacturers a mass of technical data on a specific product on the market - you will quickly discover that they hide almost everything that can provide a meticulous consumer with the opportunity to sue them for violating banal product tolerances. In fact, there are no tolerances for almost anything in ordinary goods precisely because the indication of a mass of technical tolerances immediately creates the possibility of lawsuits against them.

Why then are people surprised that Intel is doing something like this? After all, the population allows them. As do other business representatives.

Therefore, dissatisfaction with the current situation should be addressed not to Intel or some other business representatives, whose goal is always to screw you with the maximum possible profit, at the lowest possible cost, but to your local society (state) - why does it allow such product descriptions that allow type of the same product, sell completely different in quality/characteristics.

Doesn't similar things happen in other spheres of human activity? The same food, clothing, shoes, medicines, etc. This is a problem of a society that is inadequate to the challenges of the times.

And this problem can only be solved by constantly increasing the level of general education of the majority of the population, so that this majority creates sufficiently competent pressure on politicians and regulatory bodies, which the powers that be and the business layer diligently avoid, on the contrary, worsening education in public schools and universities. This is what the recent PISA 2022 results have proven.

As a person who has been related to AMD for a long time, I can say that AMD is still interested in VLIW5 only servers, supercomputers, number crushers, etc.
There is no attention to consumers. The number of cores has not increased since Zen2 in either PCs or mobile computers. The APUs are practically abandoned. Video cards are a disaster due to poor architecture, lack of chipsets, too much cache and a small bus. There are no problems with production or money for development, there is no innovation because ordinary AMD consumers are not interested. If you are an AMD fan, then just accept it or leave them like me in the stagnation they are in. As for Meteor Lake, these chips disappoint with a lower frequency, almost the same energy efficiency and lack of L4 cache.

Quote from: Sergey on December 16, 2023, 16:58:33and lack of L4 cache.

They do not need L4 cache and L3 is not needed, with RAM speeds of 300GB/s. These are all crutches of the x86 platform, which are designed to hide from buyers the discrepancy between the performance of slow RAM cores. It is already 4 times behind in its development, at least compared to the level that we have in PCs and laptops. Apple is a little better, but in fact they are lying about the fast 512-bit memory controller in the M3 Max - tests on this site indicate the extremely low efficiency of the memory controller of these chips - only 120-130Gb/s, instead of the promised 300-400.

With a balanced architecture where the cores are not suffocated by monstrously slow memory, no cache other than L1/L2 is needed.

Look at the insanity in the AMD Zen4 laptop series - it is stated that there are 28 pci-e 5.0 lines (that's why they are needed there and why was the transistor budget spent on them, instead of igpu, which is several times weaker there than in Zen4 Phoenix?), and in order to service them at the same time you need at least 120GB/s (like Apple) - and this is only for devices on the pci-e bus, but they should not occupy the entire memory bandwidth! But in reality, Zen4 has a shameful 60-70GB/s. Those. There is clearly a lack of memory bandwidth, which, like 15 years ago in x86, has a 128-bit bus.

What's the point of attaching high-speed pcie-e 5.0 devices to such a slow memory if they quickly eat up all the bandwidth and there is simply nothing left to work on the processor itself and the OS/software for other tasks?

Quote from: NikoB on December 16, 2023, 17:35:14which are designed to hide from buyers the discrepancy between the performance of slow RAM cores.

f*cked google tr - "which are designed to hide from buyers the discrepancy between the performance of slow RAM and fast cores."

Quote from: NikoB on December 16, 2023, 17:35:14only 120-130Gb/s, instead of the promised 300-400.

120-130GB/s

hey, please tell us whether you can't run efficiency test on efficiency cores, or just paid not to do so?

Quote from: bennyg1 on December 15, 2023, 08:31:23There are allegations that Intel are seeding their review samples with faster LP-7467 "MHz" RAM than the actual retail units are getting (6400 or 5600).  Which, with iGPU performance being very sensitive to RAM subsystem performance, would potentially render reviews like these overstating the actual performance the buyer will receive

True, but recently another test from bilibili was posted on WCCFTECH, with a ranking...
wccftech.com/intel-arc-igpu-on-meteor-lake-cpus-competitive-gaming-performance-amd-rdna-3/

... and you can see there he ranks the iGPU of the Intel Core Ultra 155H with 5600-RAM over the AMD 7840HS with 6400-LPDDR5 RAM. So it's not like the new Intel iGPU only wins with the fastest possible RAM.

btw. I'm not saying Intel is "the" winner, but meanwhile consider it as equal in performance to the 780m.

When I first looked at the Notebookcheck results the iGPU seemed considerably worse, but various techreviewers on youtube youtube have shown it performs better (and they also compared it with non-U chips). It seems to depend on heavily on the games.

In any case this is good for us buyers as we can choose from 2 options soon.

Don't want to buy Meteor Lake, but I need a new laptop this year and there are just no goodquality laptops with Ryzen in my region with 32gb of ram.. Laptops with Intel cpus are available with 32 gigs and/or not soldered ram, but not AMDs. So even despite Ryzen being better in my opinion, I'll have to go with Intel.. as simple as that..

Something seems way off with the results of the Core Ultra 7 when scaling from 28 watts to 45 watts.

Since the TDP for this Chip is 28 watts, with a score of 14073 at 45 watts, the score at 28 watts should be about 11,950.

No chip gets more efficient when going beyond their Base TDP.

The rule of thumb is if you double the watts past a chips TDP, you get only about a 25% improvement in performance.  If you calculate the scores from your 28 to 45 watts graph, all the results of all the other chips show the roughly 25% improvement in performance while almost doubling the Watts past TDP (28 watts); like I talked about.  All except the Core Ultra.  The Core Ultra somehow seems to be more efficient when going past the it's TDP.  That can't be the case.  Therefore, there seems to be something wrong with the Score of the Meteor Lake at 28 and 35 watts.  (Drivers / Firmware issues? )

Note, I'm not blaming the results from Notebookcheck here.  I'm thinking there is some kind of flaw with the computer here.

DOA, can't compete even with base M3.

There is clearly something wrong with the laptop the way it is using the CPU. The power efficiency gap starts to close rapidly as it gets to 45 watts. This tells me that there is a problem with low power 28watt configuration. There is no doubt if they close the gap at 28 watts from the current 30% behind from 7840u to closer to 10% behind (Bios or microcode fix) then meteor lake becomes a real alternative. But as it stands now that 30% lower efficiency at 28watt makes it a NO GO as an alternative choice.

If it's true that INTEL is only 30% less efficient in iGPU compared to AMD's 7840U, then that's not too bad and gives hope that INTEL's Battlemage GPU could be good (INTEL, for local inference, give it a lot of RAM [to compensate for in whatever you are behind AMD and NGREEDIA].
But in CPU, INTEL is 95% to 130% less efficient than AMD's 7840U, this is quite huge. Also Gamers Nexus' recent vid shows that in desktop CPU, INTEL is 2 (100%) to 3 (200%) times less efficient than AMD. Efficiency in stationary machines matters especially for server providers, so INTEL must improve their efficiency [basically their lithography] and they know it [as they recently have bought ASML's newest EUV machines].

Something wrong with those ultra cores

Gpu improved but still not great, and useless for my use ( web, code , office work)
The AI is still some trendy useless b.s. to me, and it's even more true with windows, only used for some background stuff with cam. Maybe some use in the future, it's still a maybe.

Power consumption I read is clearly nor there, and it was the biggest promise of this 13th generation...

Overall, it could even be worse about power than my good old 1165g7.

For the competition, windows arm and their Qualcomms are always far from being ready for anything. Have some hope more there than into Intel's now. AMD has been only a cheaper alternative to Intel to me, not a better one.

I don't want to switch to Apple and their ultra expensive Wallen garden either.

Then, next Intel's  manufacturing 3 is for servers. we will have to deal with this Intel manufacturing 4 for ultras for some time. 

Do we hit the Moore's barrier so that no improvement could be done ? I don't think so, I think Intel is sleeping again, due to  a lack of competition.

Quote from: vladk on December 29, 2023, 09:18:35windows arm

It's ok, if you stick to ARM apps (which you should do anyway actually if you switch).

Quote from: vladk on December 29, 2023, 09:18:35nd useless for my use ( web, code , office work)

You probably made a mistake when typing the text, because... It is in these areas that built-in gpus are more than redundant.
The problem is that until now, x86 consumption when decoding video is several times higher than the consumption of smartphones, i.e. x86 is extremely inefficient in this regard.

This is what we have to fight against.

Moreover, sneaky Google (first of all) deliberately disables hardware decoding in new browsers for W10. I recently updated a 2019 laptop with Zen+ (3500U), installed 2023 drivers, the latest from AMD and the latest Chrome browser version 120 (and Chrome has always had a minimal load on the cores and the built-in gpu, compared to other browsers, except Edge, previously, but Edge has also switched to Chromium and therefore no longer makes sense to use) and what did I find in the M$ W10 Pro installed from the ISO from the site (and under LTSC 1809) - in the GPU task manager tab, now when playing a video there is no load in the Video Decode window (both in Pro and LTSC, but it was visible before), only 3D works, and the total load on the cpu+gpu has increased significantly. I install back the AMD driver 2020 (May) and the Chrome browser version 99 - everything works fine, with Chrome up to about version 100, then the api for working with VLD decoders through the layer for browsers (MF wrapper for VP9, which is built into Home/ProEducation) is apparently disabled ),
but it is missing out of the box in LTSC versions, so it must be installed from the MS application store - VP9 Video Extensions (by the way, it is paid there, but there is a free version, which few people know about).
Google is now using a different scheme that refuses to work with normal 2019 hardware (Lenovo supports this series of laptops until 2026).

In Firefox, hardware acceleration still works, but there, traditionally, the load even with hardware acceleration is much higher than in Chrome. Firefox is only good for software video decoding (on machines where there is no hardware support for VP9 decoders) - then the load on the processor and gpu is sharply lower than with software decoding in any version of Chrome. Therefore, on machines without hardware VP9, I always use Firefox (besides, it disables the incorrect muddy font smoothing, unlike Chrome from version 50, where it cannot be disabled and is much better for the eyes) and recommend it to friends who have old hardware without a hardware VP9 decoder .

The funny thing is that on an Intel c i5 8300H with Intel 2018 drivers, all versions of Chrome work normally with hardware video decoding on YouTube in VP9, on the gpu built into the processor. Both under W10Pro and LTSC 2019/2021.

That is, the fact that Chrome does not work correctly with built-in AMD 2019 gpus, even with the latest versions of drivers from 2023 and the latest version of Chrome under W10, is both AMD and Google's fault.

Intel also had its history of meanness - for example, earlier in 2010 they deliberately disabled the DVXA/DVXA2 decoder in XP (although everything was actually supported there), as a result, hardware acceleration did not work in XP even in players. And in W7 it worked disgustingly. Intel actually forced customers to upgrade to W7 when they didn't need to.

Since then, nothing much has changed, there are constantly secret agreements and meanness to refuse support for still current (and officially supported OS versions) in order to deliberately squeeze people into OS versions that are more profitable for them, now under the crooked and buggy W11 (which has up to there is still no stable build of the kernel, because they still have not released the LTSC version)

Quote from: vladk on December 29, 2023, 09:18:35Do we hit the Moore's barrier so that no improvement could be done ?

We are almost there; Moore's "law" has long since died. The performance growth curve per 1W has been flatter for several years now compared to what it was 10-15 years ago.

Are you sure they were serving you VP9 and not AV1 on newer Chrome.

Meteor lake is mixed bag right now.

Still many margin of improvements, as all those tons of optimizations realty on software using those new AI and soc tiles.

Guess windows is a better candate than Linux about updating and using drivers.

Still I think I will buy one, after all that's how apple did when swapping to their new ARM architecture, and it was a success. If users embrace it, it will work.

Still it looks like Intel 4 etching process is not as good as expected. I read it's all EUV for all layers, it should give better results, at least on par with TSMC. Or is it because Intel have to deal with all their legacy cisc and previous instructions set and superscalar good in their time stuff, then that would be a major concern for them. Better power consumption than the H series for sure, still 50% too low performance per watt compared AMD or apple which are on TSMC process. But yeah I prefer Intel and have a real hate for apple Wallen garden ( especially on software), price ( paying for ram like nuts), and privacy ( they just hide things  better...)

Quote from: mixed bag on December 31, 2023, 11:26:26apple Wallen garden ( especially on software)

It's about iOS (and it's a good thing for mobile device actually, keeps users protected and developers fed).
You can run anything on Mac, including Windows. Back in Intel days you could even use Windows as main OS.

Quote from: mixed bag on December 31, 2023, 11:26:26privacy ( they just hide things  better...)

Have no evidence = they just hide it better? Okay.

Quote from: A on December 31, 2023, 11:45:19Have no evidence

Read and understand their iCloud terms, then apply, e.g., the German criminal code.

Quote from: RobertJasiek on December 31, 2023, 12:07:49Read and understand their iCloud terms

You can disable everything iCloud completely, it has some useful features under the same branding though, like generating you random email addresses or serving you Apple VPN. Also "Find my device" is also behind iCloud branding, but everything can be disabled.

So "iCloud terms" are not for iCloud as in "iCloud Drive", they are for all Apple online services using the brand name.

MacOS/iOS lets you turn off telemetry on one of first screens during device setup.

Quote from: NikoB on December 30, 2023, 16:04:44

Quote from: vladk on December 29, 2023, 09:18:35nd useless for my use ( web, code , office work)

You probably made a mistake when typing the text, because... It is in these areas that built-in gpus are more than redundant.
The problem is that until now, x86 consumption when decoding video is several times higher than the consumption of smartphones, i.e. x86 is extremely inefficient in this regard.

This is what we have to fight against.

Moreover, sneaky Google (first of all) deliberately disables hardware decoding in new browsers for W10. I recently updated a 2019 laptop with Zen+ (3500U), installed 2023 drivers, the latest from AMD and the latest Chrome browser version 120 (and Chrome has always had a minimal load on the cores and the built-in gpu, compared to other browsers, except Edge, previously, but Edge has also switched to Chromium and therefore no longer makes sense to use) and what did I find in the M$ W10 Pro installed from the ISO from the site (and under LTSC 1809) - in the GPU task manager tab, now when playing a video there is no load in the Video Decode window (both in Pro and LTSC, but it was visible before), only 3D works, and the total load on the cpu+gpu has increased significantly. I install back the AMD driver 2020 (May) and the Chrome browser version 99 - everything works fine, with Chrome up to about version 100, then the api for working with VLD decoders through the layer for browsers (MF wrapper for VP9, which is built into Home/ProEducation) is apparently disabled ),
but it is missing out of the box in LTSC versions, so it must be installed from the MS application store - VP9 Video Extensions (by the way, it is paid there, but there is a free version, which few people know about).
Google is now using a different scheme that refuses to work with normal 2019 hardware (Lenovo supports this series of laptops until 2026).

In Firefox, hardware acceleration still works, but there, traditionally, the load even with hardware acceleration is much higher than in Chrome. Firefox is only good for software video decoding (on machines where there is no hardware support for VP9 decoders) - then the load on the processor and gpu is sharply lower than with software decoding in any version of Chrome. Therefore, on machines without hardware VP9, I always use Firefox (besides, it disables the incorrect muddy font smoothing, unlike Chrome from version 50, where it cannot be disabled and is much better for the eyes) and recommend it to friends who have old hardware without a hardware VP9 decoder .

The funny thing is that on an Intel c i5 8300H with Intel 2018 drivers, all versions of Chrome work normally with hardware video decoding on YouTube in VP9, on the gpu built into the processor. Both under W10Pro and LTSC 2019/2021.

That is, the fact that Chrome does not work correctly with built-in AMD 2019 gpus, even with the latest versions of drivers from 2023 and the latest version of Chrome under W10, is both AMD and Google's fault.

Intel also had its history of meanness - for example, earlier in 2010 they deliberately disabled the DVXA/DVXA2 decoder in XP (although everything was actually supported there), as a result, hardware acceleration did not work in XP even in players. And in W7 it worked disgustingly. Intel actually forced customers to upgrade to W7 when they didn't need to.

Since then, nothing much has changed, there are constantly secret agreements and meanness to refuse support for still current (and officially supported OS versions) in order to deliberately squeeze people into OS versions that are more profitable for them, now under the crooked and buggy W11 (which has up to there is still no stable build of the kernel, because they still have not released the LTSC version)

Quote from: vladk on December 29, 2023, 09:18:35Do we hit the Moore's barrier so that no improvement could be done ?

We are almost there; Moore's "law" has long since died. The performance growth curve per 1W has been flatter for several years now compared to what it was 10-15 years ago.

Yes it's a completely mess of legacy and redundant. Seems this time intel did it right with that soc for decoding and AI camera and 3rd party witv the right drivers and windows implementation and apis. Now third party software have to follow, that's why apple succeeded with m1. This time Intel tries its best, with their evangelist, API, drivers, marketing.
Still they have their legacy and their not so great etching Intel 4, which is still better than the Samsung one but not as good as the TSMC.

Quote from: A on December 31, 2023, 11:45:19

Quote from: mixed bag on December 31, 2023, 11:26:26apple Wallen garden ( especially on software)

It's about iOS (and it's a good thing for mobile device actually, keeps users protected and developers fed).
You can run anything on Mac, including Windows. Back in Intel days you could even use Windows as main OS.

Quote from: mixed bag on December 31, 2023, 11:26:26privacy ( they just hide things  better...)

Have no evidence = they just hide it better? Okay.

Didn't wrote that for  debate. Anyway it's been proven many times ago. Like just a single touch  on Apple's store send 100kb of private JSON data whatever the privacy settings are. It's just crazy. And  Apple simply hide, and they leak and use private data at least as much as others.

Also can't install easily any software on mac. I read about  for c.acked software, I agree, not the best case. it's a complicated and unreliable process of signature workaround. What I read is enough for me to not want to try their store at all. I tried iphone two times, and mac using a few times are work, it was  more than enough to be convinced myself it's the most Wallen garden ever existed and it's always been like that. If some like it, it's fine, just not my cup of tea, I need tweaking and some control of the underlying myself.

Quote from: A on December 31, 2023, 12:22:10You can disable everything iCloud completely [...]
MacOS/iOS lets you turn off telemetry on one of first screens during device setup.

So, on my iPad, how do I permanently disable the following?
- iCloud terms popup on the lock screen
- different kinds of iCloud terms popups occurring at random times when using the iPad
- red number on the main screen referring to iCloud terms in the on-device Apple ID settings
- iCloud terms reminder in the on-device Apple ID settings
- the missing option to accept the basic terms without also accepting the iCloud terms during WLAN update of the OS

You say that I can disable everything iCloud completely - I think that only Apple can disable it on their servers, where some time ago they enabled it for my iPad independently of my OS updates.

As to the WLAN OS update, Apple support has confirmed that I cannot disable iCloud terms any more but that I am required to use LAN OS update to keep rejecting the iCloud terms.

Quote from: RobertJasiek on December 31, 2023, 14:34:03As to the WLAN OS update, Apple support has confirmed that I cannot disable iCloud terms any more but that I am required to use LAN OS update to keep rejecting the iCloud terms.

Maybe you've had something critical enabled and now to continue to use it you have to accept the new terms.
Factory reset your iPad and pick "set up later" when you are asked to set up iCloud.

Quote from: A on December 31, 2023, 14:42:11Maybe you've had something critical enabled

No.

Quoteand now to continue to use it you have to accept the new terms.

I do not have to accept the terms in their at that time same, and later slightly revised, versions because I can and do always click Not Now.

This is Apple DNA. "Not Now" also appears for other things because Apple dislikes the endusers' "Never". Similarly, one needs to disable each individual app when one wants to disable all. Apple always thinks it knows better than the enduser what he needs and always maintains the Walled Garden.

In particular, the change to removing the iCloud terms rejecting option during WLAN OS updates and the Apple service confirming that this is intention prove that it is by design.

Besides, things have become increasingly worse during the previous years: of the kinds of iCloud terror, some started only months after the first kinds. More kinds of popups, then also appearing on the lock screen.

Recall that frequencies of popups has varied during different periods but have been consistent during each period. This also indicates Apples intention. During the first ca. two months, shock therapy with ca. 6 popups per day. Then for a week no popups (either Apple was discussing whether to continue its terror or it set an excuse so that one cannot say "on each day" but can only say "on each day except for one week"). Then 1 or 2 popups per day (might be 2 on some days due to different time zones or login times, so maybe it is 1 for every particular 24h, which I could not identify yet, e.g., 1 per PST calender day).

QuoteFactory reset your iPad and pick "set up later" when you are asked to set up iCloud.

Factory reset is a punishment, especially when an old battery generates the risk that the iPad won't survive the attempt.

I do not want to be punished even more but I want Apple to stop its terror.

"set up later" is not a solution - there ought to be the option "never".

Quote from: RobertJasiek on December 31, 2023, 15:05:16No.

It's not asking to accept new terms if you haven't created/used iCloud account before.

Quote from: RobertJasiek on December 31, 2023, 15:05:16Factory reset is a punishment

Call Apple and ask them to close your iCloud account. Takes couple days. You will lose everything in it.
Or log out of Apple ID on device and make a new one.
Or accept the terms and close your account yourself.

Quote from: RobertJasiek on December 31, 2023, 15:05:16especially when an old battery generates the risk that the iPad won't survive the attempt

Isn't getting rid of it a good news for you? You will finally get Android tablet with all the proper spying on you.

Quote from: RobertJasiek on December 31, 2023, 15:05:16there ought to be the option "never".

Open a ticket with Apple support.

Quote from: A on December 31, 2023, 15:12:40It's not asking to accept new terms if you haven't created/used iCloud account before.

I have meticulously noticed what is asked.
- What is asked about the iCloud terms before having an iCloud account is independent of whether one has, or has not, an iCloud account.
- The question is whether one accepts, or does not accept, the iCloud terms.
- The iCloud terms are in their current version or the version current at the time of introducing a particular OS version.
- The answer choice is between "Not now" versus "Yes" (or "Accept") or some such semantically equivalent phrase in German.

QuoteCall Apple and ask them to close your iCloud account. Takes couple days. You will lose everything in it.
Or log out of Apple ID on device and make a new one.
Or accept the terms and close your account yourself.

I see.

The third option is not for me.

The second option involves risks of not being able to recreate the same AppleID and of losing purchased apps / subscriptions (only one, but still). Therefore, I cannot choose the second option.

The first option presumes that I have an iCloud account. As I have never created any iCloud account by my active action, this would mean that Apple would have created it against my will. Nevertheless, I can indeed try to contact the Apple support and find out whether such is the case and can be changed, and whether that would affect the popup etc. terror. Maybe in January. Thanks for the suggestion!

QuoteIsn't getting rid of it a good news for you? You will finally get Android tablet with all the proper spying on you.

Your sarcasm is unfair as I have avoided Android for also this reason. My OS preferences are Windows or Linux.

There is also a commercial necessity to have some iDevice however old because some contents / communication is only available there and I need access once every few months.

Quote

Quote from: RobertJasiek on December 31, 2023, 15:05:16there ought to be the option "never".

Open a ticket with Apple support.

To beg for replacement of "Not now" by "Never" in Popups? Do you think Apple would apply my suggestion? I have not even dreamt of such a possibility of paradigm change from world-wide uniform service and Walled Garden to a glimmer of friendliness towards the customer. Ok, maybe I will beg and report about Apple's reaction...

Quote from: RobertJasiek on December 31, 2023, 17:32:07As I have never created any iCloud account by my active action,

Of course you did, probably were using Find My Device or something.

Quote from: RobertJasiek on December 31, 2023, 17:32:07The third option is not for me

Quote from: RobertJasiek on December 31, 2023, 17:32:07The second option involves risks

Quote from: RobertJasiek on December 31, 2023, 17:32:07The first option presumes

Excuses. Just admit you don't want to do anything because situation is actually satisfying and if you fix it there will be no fuel for your Apple vendetta.

Quote from: RobertJasiek on December 31, 2023, 17:32:07Windows

So I guess Windows terms of service, telemetry and ads have a different vibe. )))

Quote from: RobertJasiek on December 31, 2023, 17:32:07Do you think Apple would apply my suggestion?

Of course not, yours will be a single request there probably. )) They have more important stuff to attend to.

Quote from: RobertJasiek on December 31, 2023, 17:32:07Walled Garden

Is a good thing for mobile devices.

Quote from: A on December 31, 2023, 17:55:15Of course you did, probably were using Find My Device or something.

I touched this icon to put it in a misc folder and I think eventually it became possible to deinstall so I did.

Quote

Quote from: RobertJasiek on December 31, 2023, 17:32:07The third option is not for me

Quote from: RobertJasiek on December 31, 2023, 17:32:07The second option involves risks

Quote from: RobertJasiek on December 31, 2023, 17:32:07The first option presumes

Excuses.

Sorry, but these are not excuses but my careful decisions.

Third option: I have explained precisely why accepting the iCloud terms is not an option for me ever even temporarily for seconds.

Second option: Can you please accept reality? The 8 years old battery is a major concern when starting a process that might exceed it. That big companies screw up accounts is a real possibility. Besides, I am not naive: if I remove an account with an attached purchase, I cannot expect a right to that purchase if temporarily I am without account; I can only hope for mercy.

First option: you do not expect me to spend New Year's Eve at hotlines, do you?

Those popups waste me hours over the years - of course, I want them to end (instead of, as you suggest, enjoying suffering and excuses).

Quotethere will be no fuel

LOL. You forgot the contents of the iCloud terms, notches, small arrow keys, missing bookmark exports, upsellings, unrepairability, bugs, Walled Garden etc.

QuoteSo I guess Windows terms of service, telemetry and ads have a different vibe.

They do. Hint: no outright criminal activity, deactivated telemetry and ads, no popups (especially not at random times when using my computers). Microsoft is no saint, but almost in comparison to Apple.

Quote from: RobertJasiek on December 31, 2023, 18:46:45I have explained precisely why accepting the iCloud terms is not an option for me ever even temporarily for seconds.

This is not serious

Quote from: RobertJasiek on December 31, 2023, 18:46:45Can you please accept reality? The 8 years old battery

Charger also lost of course? )))

Quote from: RobertJasiek on December 31, 2023, 18:46:45you do not expect me to spend New Year's Eve at hotlines

Your problem is lasting for months. Now New Year is an excuse. )

Quote from: RobertJasiek on December 31, 2023, 18:46:45iCloud terms, notches, small arrow keys, missing bookmark exports, upsellings, unrepairability, bugs, Walled Garden

Aha

Quote from: RobertJasiek on December 31, 2023, 18:46:45Microsoft is no saint, but almost in comparison to Apple.

Message from alternate universe. This made my day.

Quote from: A on December 31, 2023, 18:57:06

Quote from: RobertJasiek on December 31, 2023, 18:46:45I have explained precisely why accepting the iCloud terms is not an option for me ever even temporarily for seconds.

This is not serious

One of the greatest achievements of mankind are human and basic rights. The iCloud terms violate some human and basic rights. Accepting the iCloud terms means abandoning some of the human and basic rights. Only few things are even more serious than that. In particular, for me.

QuoteCharger also lost of course?

I cannot lose it as I only use it at home. Its Apple cable was the worst cable I have ever had so I had to replace it a few years ago by what is now my worst cable. Currently it works but it is planned obsolesence.

The carger is also a security risk in two ways: it comprises two parts so that Apple saves a few cents at the user's risk of they breaking apart; the electric protection on its pins is so weak that it vanishes, Apple saves a few cents at the user's risk of touching conductive parts.

Beware: whenever you carelessly make a joke, actual harm needs to be addressed.

QuoteYour problem is lasting for months.

Nonsense. Not months but years!

QuoteNow New Year is an excuse.

Only today I have learned (from you) of another possibility of a cause, with which it makes sense to make another support request attempt. Recall that, during my previous related support phone call, I was already so insisting to be connected to a supervising manager.

Quote from: NikoB on December 14, 2023, 19:23:18What's the problem with Zen4 Phoenix? It is nowhere to be found, not even in the USA! Sane models for 7840U! And the same will happen with the virtual Zen

All! And sell, sell, sell! But there is NOT a single such model on the market! Amazing!!!

I'm wondering if AMD is just showing off,  samples of 7840u for reviewers and limited yeilds. they may not expect to sell to consumers. It could be only to ad, show off for themselves and for tsmc, and sell their ripper server stuff.

I'm sure there is a reason behind that, something they could sell by millions, why they wouldn't...

Anyway I see comparing 155h to m3 a good thing, also drivers windows 11 and thread manager v2.1, SOC codec, all that like  apple's ultra optimized os for their proc. Intel 4 far from TSMC 4nm, still I want to believe it can be great.

Quote from: A on December 31, 2023, 18:07:29

Quote from: RobertJasiek on December 31, 2023, 17:32:07Walled Garden

Is a good thing for mobile devices.

No. Absolutely not for me :) Wallen garden ( extremely  close software and haedware) leads to monopolistic abuse, lack of innovation, price increase, and privacy issues, all at same time. It's always been like that and still is.

Quote from: core ultra great ? on January 02, 2024, 01:57:09

Quote from: NikoB on December 14, 2023, 19:23:18What's the problem with Zen4 Phoenix? It is nowhere to be found, not even in the USA! Sane models for 7840U! And the same will happen with the virtual Zen

All! And sell, sell, sell! But there is NOT a single such model on the market! Amazing!!!

I'm wondering if AMD is just showing off,  samples of 7840u for reviewers and limited yeilds. they may not expect to sell to consumers. It could be only to ad, show off for themselves and for tsmc, and sell their ripper server stuff.

I'm sure there is a reason behind that, something they could sell by millions, why they wouldn't...

It's definitely not yield. TSMC 5/4nm is very mature now. It is simply greed. AMD noticed Intel is not able to offer any competitive products, so they stop trying to push their best product. And instead use remaining and segmentation to offer poor products such as 7730/7520 to maximize profits. A few short years ago you can get their then latest zen 2 based r7 for $600. Today you have to pay at least $900 for the zen 4 rdna 3 r7. Anything less will get you some combination of older tech and cut down specs.

It is just like the 2014 Intel becoming lazy when AMD had their bulldozer moment. Except in reverse. (Nvidia too. 3050 launched with 4GB RAM because they knew AMD with any amount of VRAM can't compete, so they cut every corner in their low end offerings to upsell you) None of these companies are your friend, they will keep offering uncompetitive products as long as their competitor cannot compete .

Quote from: Abc on February 20, 2024, 01:43:57AMD noticed Intel is not able to offer any competitive products, so they stop trying to push their best product.

a pretty stupid idea if they have the resource at TSMC to produce large quantities. We don't know this for sure. Because it is unlikely that they will be able to raise the price so much as to justify the loss of market share - and they are losing it again in laptops, because Intel is dumping. They can afford it, having an order of magnitude greater profit.

AMD's task (if they are not Intel's anti-monopoly gasket) is to maximize the x86 market share. Unless, of course, they see any prospects in the x86 market at all. Because other behavior (with a positive assessment of the future x86 market) shows the non-market nature of AMD...

But increasing market share must be accompanied by similar dumping as Intel, and they cannot afford it.

When there are only two left on the x86 market, this is no longer competition or a game, but an oligopoly with clearly defined boundaries - "red" lines.

Most likely, both may be overthrown by upstart companies like Qualcomm and Mediatek if the laptop and desktop market begins to rapidly drift from x86 to arm processors. But this is being held back for obvious reasons - a huge base of accumulated software and millions of professional developers for the x86 platform with enormous inertia in retraining.

Therefore, we do not yet have any special alternative, with the exception of Apple with ARM, but this is a different league and a special ecosystem that is either not available to the majority of the population or is simply not satisfactory in terms of content and price/quality/performance ratio.