NotebookCHECK - Notebook Forum

Glossy, PWM, slower than an old tired snail with 78.8 ms B2W and 80.8 ms G2G, which are horrendous response rates equal to 12 frames per second (12!) so that ghosting is definitely very noticeable in everyday usage, yet it still gets:

QuoteDisplay  93%

That alone says enough about the objectiveness of this review. But it's Apple so even with no screen at all it would stil get nothing short of 90% for Display score, with all supplementary praises about its superiority just like in this review. Nice.

"Apple uses a chemical process, which is part of the anodizing and not a coating."

Other macbook air/macbook pro colorways are/were easily scratched. Can anyone clarify if this space black is prone to scratching now that the colorway is part of the anodizing stage?

Quote from: Neenyah on November 21, 2023, 11:02:44Glossy, PWM, slower than an old tired snail with 78.8 ms B2W and 80.8 ms G2G, which are horrendous response rates equal to 12 frames per second (12!) so that ghosting is definitely very noticeable in everyday usage, yet it still gets:

QuoteDisplay  93%

That alone says enough about the objectiveness of this review. But it's Apple so even with no screen at all it would stil get nothing short of 90% for Display score, with all supplementary praises about its superiority just like in this review. Nice.

I'm convinced Apple pays for glowing reviews in the same manner they pay for carbon credits rather than change their manufacturing processes so they can obnoxiously self-righteously claim they care about the environment and on target to be carbon-neutral in the next few years. smh

Quote from: Neenyah on November 21, 2023, 11:02:44Glossy, PWM, slower than an old tired snail with 78.8 ms B2W and 80.8 ms G2G, which are horrendous response rates equal to 12 frames per second (12!) so that ghosting is definitely very noticeable in everyday usage, yet it still gets:

It's not about fps, it's about more/less motion blur.
In reality it's not that easy to notice, unless you are constantly switching between this and very low latency panel.

There's actually a good video on YouTube explaining Apple's decision process for screens and why it's MiniLED

youtube.com/watch?v=W3JR2plIgVE

TLDR - OLED is not ready, even in iPhone mitigation of OLED issues required using hardware solution on CPU die. When OLED is ready and there's a required quantity of panels, Apple will make a switch. Unless MicroLED is done by then.

What's wrong with this super expensive laptop?

We were promised RAM speeds of 300GB/s for M3 Max. The result of the test is almost 3 times less, because the real efficiency of the memory controller is only 40%. Despite the fact that 400GB/s was declared in the M2 Max - but we did not see tests, only declarations.

Where does this impact the most? Yes, just when igpu is working. For it, the decisive factor is the bandwidth of the RAM, which is shared with the system and other devices.

Go ahead. Let's look at the performance of the SSD - a pitiful only poor 53MB/s@4k IOPs, despite the fact that even such a slow memory(vs official declaration) pumps ~10 GB/s at 4k IOPs, according to the test results. The difference is 200(!) times in favor of the RAM, which is at least 64GB, which reduces the need for swap with such a slow SSD to a minimum.

Well, the bots above have already talked about the slow (by response) screen. PWM is ok - 14kHz not visible for all. Can only add the strange (if not surprising) reluctance of the authors of Mac Book reviews to carry out hardware screen calibration and post the results after it.

It can also be noted that despite the premium segment and exorbitant price, a 14" laptop weighs as much as 15.6 x86 laptops, which is clearly too much for this segment. However, Apple fans are apparently pumped-up people.

The author does not write what the real noise is in intensive surfing in the maximum performance profile (where impulse performance is maximum, and this is what we need). I suspect that this laptop is not at all quiet in such surfing.

I would like to have noise tests in 4k@60fps and 8k@60fps mode (if supported by the system) on the same, for example, YouTube. Will the laptop be completely silent after at least half an hour of video playback? A simple test that immediately shows who is who.

Temperatures at the keyboard level are too high. This laptop is definitely dangerous to use with the lid closed with a high load on the processor with an external monitor - which could potentially lead to faster degradation of the miniLED panels whose critical operating temperature is approximately 50C.

In about another 3-4 years, Apple will also reach a dead end with technical processes in terms of performance per 1W - selling a new one with minimal improvement will be more and more difficult, especially at such prices. So, what is next? Increase TDP like Intel cheaters? Or is it again selling "rhinestones" instead of real progress in performance per 1W?

But is all this interesting to those who will actually buy it? After all, they buy Apple... ;)

Quote from: NikoB on November 22, 2023, 15:50:58What's wrong with this super expensive laptop?

From user's perspective there is not much wrong with it. And it's not expensive. You only buy your first mac for full price, then you either trade it in or sell on second-hand market (and oh boy macs are holding their price tag much better than any x86). So after the first one you never pay full price for your next mac. If you trade in your _working_ M1 Max today, M3 Max will be ~$2200 for you. Even less if you sell old mac yourself.

Quote from: NikoB on November 22, 2023, 15:50:58The author does not write what the real noise is in intensive surfing in the maximum performance profile (where impulse performance is maximum, and this is what we need). I suspect that this laptop is not at all quiet in such surfing.

There's no maximum performance profile. M chips do not change performance profile on battery/on AC by default. It's always same performance/consumption, unless you specifically put it into Low Power mode. Which is more fair than Intel/AMD boys doing performance tests on AC and battery life tests at cut down 50% performance? )))

Quote from: NikoB on November 22, 2023, 15:50:58This laptop is definitely dangerous to use with the lid closed with a high load on the processor with an external monitor - which could potentially lead to faster degradation of the miniLED panels whose critical operating temperature is approximately 50C.

Meh, bs, people are using them in clamshell mode 24/7. Even when it's open fans blow onto the screen lol.

Quote from: NikoB on November 22, 2023, 15:50:58I would like to have noise tests in 4k@60fps and 8k@60fps mode (if supported by the system) on the same, for example, YouTube. Will the laptop be completely silent after at least half an hour of video playback?

16 inch will be silent, just don't forget to disable Youtube's CPU hog, 'Ambient mode'. Don't have 14 inch to test.
53-54C (idle 48-50C), fans still off after 23 mins 4K@60 video (got bored, temperature wasn't rising).

P.S. I personally never considered 14 inch body a good idea for Max chip. It's great for Pro chip though, as it's noticeably cooler compared to Max. It was like this in all generations, M1/2/3.

Constrained internal space + smaller battery + smaller thermal solution don't make 14 inch as good for Max as 16 inch body.

Trade in is said to bring less than selling at, say, Ebay.

The trade in calculation overlooks users like me who like to keep their computers for 10 years. Also Apple devices do not keep high resale values after several years.

Trade in / resale calculations are more useful for doing so after just 1, 2 or 3 years, if one wants to spend the still relatively high average per year.

Quote from: RobertJasiek on November 22, 2023, 16:39:01Trade in is said to bring less than selling at, say, Ebay.

Yeah, I mentioned selling it yourself will save you more money in the end.

Quote from: RobertJasiek on November 22, 2023, 16:39:01The trade in calculation overlooks users like me who like to keep their computers for 10 years. Also Apple devices do not keep high resale values after several years.

People who are fine with their 9yr old laptops are not a target audience of MB Pro at all? Sounds like very basic productivity. They will trade in their MBP2015 for $170 and get MBA.

Quote from: A on November 22, 2023, 16:18:01You only buy your first mac for full price, then you either trade it in or sell on second-hand market (and oh boy macs are holding their price tag much better than any x86). So after the first one you never pay full price for your next mac. If you trade in your _working_ M1 Max today, M3 Max will be ~$2200 for you. Even less if you sell old mac yourself.

I, out of the corner of my eye, monitor the used market for x86 and have never seen really balanced x86 models on this market at a low price relative to the initial price of the models. Moreover, they are practically not available for sale on the used market in good configurations. Guess why?

Quote from: A on November 22, 2023, 16:18:01There's no maximum performance profile. M chips do not change performance profile on battery/on AC by default. It's always same performance/consumption, unless you specifically put it into Low Power mode. Which is more fair than Intel/AMD boys doing performance tests on AC and battery life tests at cut down 50% performance? )))

The author specifically indicated in the review that the tests were carried out in the maximum performance profile, and from the power supply. And it is clear from the tests that performance is gradually falling.
For any laptop battery, consuming more than 50W is a bad load. But we are not talking about PL1, but about PL2. It should always be maximum for the fastest possible response of the system and software. But it's difficult to understand this from the review.

The fact that Apple has reduced the memory speed in the M3 indicates obvious problems with overheating and consumption (including from the battery) even with the new technical process. Namely, real 400GB/s would be felt literally "at the tips of the fingers" by any consumer. But unfortunately this did not happen, but it only got worse...

Quote from: A on November 22, 2023, 16:18:01Meh, bs, people are using them in clamshell mode 24/7. Even when it's open fans blow onto the screen lol.

It's more about torturing a high load with an external monitor and, for example, an eGPU, if it works on Macs with Arm. The screen definitely won't like 50C temperatures next to it. And this must be taken into account in such scenarios.

Quote from: A on November 22, 2023, 16:18:0153-54C (idle 48-50C), fans still off after 23 mins 4K@60 video (got bored, temperature wasn't rising).

The resting temperature is clearly abnormal - you have problems with the cooling system.

Dell G5 5587 with i5 8300H (PL1=47W/PL2=75W) - fully silent with a crappy aluminum cooling system in a plastic case. 55-60C for youtube 4k@60fps (coolers turn on no earlier than 72-75C). With very tunning W10. At idle 37-42C (ambient ~24C). But the weight is 2.83 kg and the body dimensions for a 15.6 screen are almost the same as for a 17.3"..this is 2018 year...

Apple equipment in general is more difficult to resell, because its market is about 8 times smaller than the x86 market - exactly that much less will be willing to buy a second hand, and even without a guarantee at an exorbitant price. Especially outside the US/EU/Japan, where their market is still narrower.

I never saw the point in reselling the Dell G5 5587. I only had this desire after the keyboard failed this summer, after almost 5 years, and despite the fact that I rarely used it. If it had not failed (which is why I am extremely dissatisfied given its actual frequency of use and not just me) I would not have changed it for another 5 years. For what? It is fast enough outside of games and supports the "top" 64GB of RAM.

At the beginning of the year, I replaced SSD with a more capacious and faster one and opened the case for the first time in 4 years - 2 coolers were pristinely clean - it amazed me, there was not even a hint of dust on the impeller! I haven't changed thermal paste or termopads for 5+ years. And G5 is still quiet.

Why replace or sell such a laptop if it is not defective?

Quote from: NikoB on November 22, 2023, 17:24:23Why replace or sell such a laptop if it is not defective?

It doesn't have a 4K 120 Hz screen nor it can output 8K@60fps so it's defective. Also no full-sized arrow keys while you are always praising those. Stand by your own words and upgrade immediately.

Well, it doesn't, but I tried to find 18" 4k@120Hz with classical keyboard and good ports setup in this year and couldn't find anything on the market.
Dell G5 5587 has TB3 and eGPU support, so it won't be difficult for me to connect for example a future GTX5060 with DP2.1+ to support lossless 8k@60fps. And no matter how funny it is, I've still been waiting since 2013 for 8k monitors connected via one cable...

I'm also waiting for an optical universal link at distances up to 50M with bandwidth of 500 Gbit/s at least as, as standard port, for PCs and laptops. But for some reason it is still not there. And it's not clear to me what the obstacle is...

Quote from: NikoB on November 22, 2023, 17:12:08I, out of the corner of my eye, monitor the used market for x86 and have never seen really balanced x86 models on this market at a low price relative to the initial price of the models. Moreover, they are practically not available for sale on the used market in good configurations. Guess why?

Sure, because you have no clue.

Quote from: NikoB on November 22, 2023, 17:12:08For any laptop battery, consuming more than 50W is a bad load. But we are not talking about PL1, but about PL2. It should always be maximum for the fastest possible response of the system and software. But it's difficult to understand this from the review.

What does this even mean

Quote from: NikoB on November 22, 2023, 17:12:08The author specifically indicated in the review that the tests were carried out in the maximum performance profile, and from the power supply.

Again, there's no maximum performance profile

Quote from: NikoB on November 22, 2023, 17:12:08The fact that Apple has reduced the memory speed in the M3 indicates obvious problems with overheating and consumption (including from the battery) even with the new technical process.

Bs

Quote from: NikoB on November 22, 2023, 17:12:08It's more about torturing a high load with an external monitor and, for example, an eGPU, if it works on Macs with Arm. The screen definitely won't like 50C temperatures next to it. And this must be taken into account in such scenarios.

Bs

Quote from: NikoB on November 22, 2023, 17:12:08The resting temperature is clearly abnormal - you have problems with the cooling system.

Lol no, 50C on E-cores is totally normal working temp. Laptop is cold to the touch.

Quote from: NikoB on November 22, 2023, 17:12:08Dell G5 5587 with i5 8300H

Your 8300H warmed up +20C just to play 4K video )))

Quote from: NikoB on November 22, 2023, 17:12:08Apple equipment in general is more difficult to resell

Haha what? Maybe true for Russia or whenever you are from. Macbooks sell like hot cakes.

Quote from: NikoB on November 22, 2023, 17:40:20Dell G5 5587 has TB3 and eGPU support, so it won't be difficult for me to connect for example a future GTX5060 with DP2.1+ to support lossless 8k@60fps. And no matter how funny it is,

Your ability to connect something doesn't mean your laptop will manage it. Try connecting a mouse with 1000Hz polling rate first, it'll load up your Intel more than 4K@60 video. )

Quote from: A on November 22, 2023, 18:36:13Try connecting a mouse with 1000Hz polling rate first, it'll load up your Intel more than 4K@60 video. )

No? This is my X1 Carbon's CPU usage with a 1000 Hz mouse + Half Life 1 running on external screen (https://imgur.com/SYAiBPL). Barely any. With eGPU (3070 Ti) I'm playing Counter Strike 2 (my main game) in 233+ fps at 1440p (capped at 233 actually because it's a 240 Hz monitor), no sweat.

Edit: 4K 60 fps vid on YT (COSTA RICA IN 4K 60fps HDR (ULTRA HD)) gives 13-19% CPU usage, tested now.

Quote from: AMacbooks sell like hot cakes.

You wanted me to point out to you examples when users write Apple PR. Yours is the first;)

Quote from: Neenyah on November 22, 2023, 18:51:50No? . Barely any. With eGPU (3070 Ti) I'm playing Counter Strike 2 (my main game) in 233+ fps at 1440p, no sweat.

Move it quickly and look at CPU usage when it's idle/moving. Also make sure it's really doing 1000Hz by googling "mouse polling rate checker" and doing stuff on that website.

Quote from: RobertJasiek on November 22, 2023, 18:52:13You wanted me to point out to you examples when users write Apple PR. Yours is the first;)

Nah, can't prove it, it's subjective personal experience. Macbooks don't really lose price and sell withing one-two weeks. The only actual price drop is Intel macs after platform switch. Feelsbad for guys who got their i9 2019 MBPs just a year before switch for $6500 and now they are $1000-1500 give or take because no one needs Intel except 3.5 guys running Bootcamp for their productivity needs.

Quote from: A on November 22, 2023, 19:01:35Move it quickly and look at CPU usage when it's idle/moving. Also make sure it's really doing 1000Hz by googling "mouse polling rate checker" and doing stuff on that website.

devicetests.com/mouse-rate-test shows 1060 Hz maximum rate and 960-980 average rate, CPU usage 2-4% with fast consecutive movements around for about one full minute without pause.

I mean I am literally gaming with that laptop (despite having a desktop too) and have not a single issue performance-wise, high CPU usage would definitely be noticeable in CS2 as it's a fairly CPU demanding game. HWiNFO is always open to monitor stuff, nothing unusual is happening on graphs.

Same with other usage (working in almost whole Adobe CC for living). Using desktop (i7 13700KF + RX 6800 XT) basically only to render vids in Premiere Pro and for After Effects.

Quote from: Neenyah on November 22, 2023, 18:51:50gives 13-19% CPU usage, tested now

And that's with GPU hardware acc?

Quote from: Neenyah on November 22, 2023, 19:08:46CPU usage 2-4% with fast consecutive movements around for about one full minute without pause

Well, lucky you ) Probably depends on mouse, my Razer Pro Click heats up Intel machines at 1000Hz )))

Quote from: Neenyah on November 22, 2023, 18:51:504K 60 fps vid on YT (COSTA RICA IN 4K 60fps HDR (ULTRA HD)) gives 13-19% CPU usage, tested now.

11.1% of SINGLE core, 2% overall, power consumption 13.24W while playing it, give or take (idle avg 11.94W)

Quote from: A on November 22, 2023, 19:12:34

Quote from: Neenyah on November 22, 2023, 18:51:50gives 13-19% CPU usage, tested now

And that's with GPU hardware acc?

Yes, UHD 620. Microsoft Edge browser (so Chromium engine).

Quote from: A on November 22, 2023, 19:12:34

Quote from: Neenyah on November 22, 2023, 19:08:46CPU usage 2-4% with fast consecutive movements around for about one full minute without pause

Well, lucky you ) Probably depends on mouse, my Razer Pro Click heats up Intel machines at 1000Hz )))

Could be just some bad luck in pairing, different factors but almost certainly not an issue with a CPU or a mouse, something else is there in question 🤔 1000 Hz shouldn't be an issue for any CPU from the past 10-12 years even for weak Celerons from the third gen Intel.

Quote from: A on November 22, 2023, 19:18:30

Quote from: Neenyah on November 22, 2023, 18:51:504K 60 fps vid on YT (COSTA RICA IN 4K 60fps HDR (ULTRA HD)) gives 13-19% CPU usage, tested now.

11.1% of SINGLE core, 2% overall, power consumption 13.24W while playing it, give or take (idle avg 11.94W)

Screenshot of both screens at once (https://imgur.com/0DVVchW), both 1440p (external on top, laptop below), USB-C connection (DP); Core Effective Clocks all but one under 500 MHz during the video playback with Core Usage 11.43%, Thread Usage 16.4%, Total CPU Usage 11.4%, CPU Package Power (power consumption) 8.759W to 15.1W.

Quote from: Neenyah on November 22, 2023, 19:40:59CPU Package Power

Mine is not package power, it's overall system power from socket, hard drives, screens, external SSD, etc.
Package power (CPU+GPU+DRAM) while playing it is 0.45W, according to Mx Power Gadget, including 0.09W on GPU.

Quote from: A on November 22, 2023, 21:27:03

Quote from: Neenyah on November 22, 2023, 19:40:59CPU Package Power

Mine is not package power, it's overall system power from socket, hard drives, screens, external SSD, etc.
Package power (CPU+GPU+DRAM) while playing it is 0.45W, according to Mx Power Gadget, including 0.09W on GPU.

Ah, ok then, my bad. Very good numbers there! 😳 I checked mine now and logged these numbers (https://imgur.com/i8Wy62q); with 17.591W being about the upper end of Total System Power (only one spike above 20W, everything else 12-18). iGPU 0.551W

Quote from: NikoB on November 22, 2023, 15:50:58We were promised RAM speeds of 300GB/s for M3 Max. The result of the test is almost 3 times less, because the real efficiency of the memory controller is only 40%. Despite the fact that 400GB/s was declared in the M2 Max - but we did not see tests, only declarations.

Some is reserved for GPU and hardware media engines. You can't get all of it unless you properly and simultaneously stress every module of SoC.
Higher bandwidth isn't there to mindlessly dump RAM at full speed on any request. It's there to have a guaranteed bandwidth to unified RAM for every SoC module at any time.

You became 2x smarter after reading this message, NikoB. No need to thank me.

Quote from: A on November 23, 2023, 17:38:10Higher bandwidth isn't there to mindlessly dump RAM at full speed on any request. It's there to have a guaranteed bandwidth to unified RAM for every SoC module at any time.

Tbh here, many people have noticed slower performance because of reduced memory bandwidth where M3 Pro is easily losing to older M1 and M2 variants, two of plenty examples:

• M3 Macbook Pro - Unfortunately not what I was hoping for (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlX-GjICr6w) (Oliur / UltraLinx)
• MacBook Pro M3 (14 & 16): You're Being Misled (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fv78mPxRp9A) (Just Josh)

Apple is basically forcing people to upgrade to the most expensive M3 models just to get faster performance than with previous M1 and M2 devices. Just Josh's comment under the first linked video:

QuoteHi Oliur, I was referred your video by a viewer. Yes, as others have said, this operation is heavily limited by Memory Bandwidth. That is the primary issue. When it comes to why the M1 Pro amd M1 Max did not exhibit this behavior, here is my initial hypothesis. When the M1/Pro/Max were released, most programs ran via Rosetta 2, an emulation software. This is due to the switch in Architecture from Intel to Apple M series ARM. The emulation layer would choose what hardware execution path to run, and in your case, may not have been using the right one. Over time applications switched to running native, and therefore using the hardware acceleration available to them. By the time M2 was out, this Memory Bandwidth limitation for video editors was on full display. You can see me demonstrating this issue on the older M2 Pro vs M2 Max here: https://youtu.be/OezOluKHyVw?t=271 (sorry to link to my channel, feel free to remove if you are uncomfortable). With regard to GPU cores. These are used to accelerate vector operations used by 3D rendering (and even crypto mining). Not those doing 2D rendering, which you are doing. Not all rendering is the same type of rendering - Hope this helps.

Quote from: Neenyah on November 24, 2023, 14:54:25Tbh here, many people have noticed slower performance because of reduced memory bandwidth where M3 Pro is easily losing to older M1 and M2 variants, two of plenty examples:

My comment was only related to CPU tests not showing full RAM bandwidth.

As for lower RAM bandwidths compared to prev generation - especially in M Pro line - lowering bandwidth for M Pro was a marketing decision and it was completely correct actually, because prior to M3 generation M Pro and M Max were basically the same CPU. So M Pro chip was moved "down" the performance line in several way to not interfere with Max sales.
Yeah, kinda feels bad you can't pay less and get max performance anymore, but it was expected. Pro chip was mismarketed from the start and everyone knew it.

Max was also toned down a bit because every next Max destroyed Ultra in terms of CPU. And people were paying for Ultra quite a lot.

I also watched Just Josh's video and he is comparing a binned M3 Pro to non-binned M2 Pro all the time. Binned M3 Pro has less cores both CPU and GPU. M3 Max is also tad slower despite the same RAM bandwidth. So idk if RAM bandwidth is responsible or it's just media engines were toned down a bit or it's some software incompatibility with new hardware.

Just Josh's review has a screenshot of the M3 Pro/Max configuration and it shows that they can still be configured in the top configuration up to 300/400GB/s for the memory controller.

If this is so, and at the end we get a pitiful 100-120GB/s in the RAM test for both Pro and Max, then this is generally a complete disgrace to Apple and a fraud with the characteristics, unless the test itself is done with some kind of internal error in the code , which is why the results are so low. I hope this test is done in native Arm code.

But I never saw the same tests for M1/M2, and I would like the editors to retest all of them, for general results, as it was and as it is now...

At the same time, smart-a** Josh shows in the screenshot the real ram throughput of x86 machines, and for Apple machines the THEORETICAL one, which has nothing to do with reality, as tests have shown.

The same trick with x86 in multi-threading - smart-a** Josh compares it with the 13980HX at 90-100W consumption, but for some reason he forgot to add the 7945HX to the test, which is another 38% faster than the 13980HX at 90-100%.

Otherwise, Josh just made me laugh. He literally repeats me from all angles (regarding the sneaky shortcomings in x86 laptops) only for Apple laptops. Hahaha.

This is a general sneaky marketing tendency to disable key functions and include them only in the appendage with garbage that you don't need for crazy money (just as I don't need a discrete chip - at best 4050), but I need everything else to the maximum and for real prices, and not inflated by 3-6 times relative to retail for components (and with a much greater guarantee for each)

Quote from: NikoB on November 24, 2023, 18:35:08At the same time, smart-a** Josh shows in the screenshot the real ram throughput of x86 machines, and for Apple machines the THEORETICAL one, which has nothing to do with reality, as tests have shown.

Quote from: A on November 23, 2023, 17:38:10Some is reserved for GPU and hardware media engines. You can't get all of it unless you properly and simultaneously stress every module of SoC.
Higher bandwidth isn't there to mindlessly dump RAM at full speed on any request. It's there to have a guaranteed bandwidth to unified RAM for every SoC module at any time.

You became 2x smarter after reading this message, NikoB. No need to thank me.

No need to thank me x2

Quote from: NikoB on November 24, 2023, 18:35:08at best 4050

4070-4080* with 1/3 1/2 power consumption

Quote from: NikoB on November 24, 2023, 18:35:08and not inflated by 3-6 times relative to retail for components

Buy components, make your own laptop, don't forget to share results.

Quote from: NikoB on November 24, 2023, 18:35:08inflated by 3-6 times relative to retail for components

Up to 20 - 30 times is a more realistic assessment for Apple NAND.

Quote from: RobertJasiek on November 25, 2023, 00:59:49Up to 20 - 30 times is a more realistic assessment for Apple NAND.

As I always say, and it's not only related to Apple, because e.g. Surface MSRP storage prices are also +$200 for increment - buy components, make your own laptop. Get NikoB as partner and finally bless us with cheap great laptops at components' price. Sitting under the rock and typing bs is easier than running a successful business with R&D, actual production and thousands of employees who want to eat and buy their Tesla or Audi. Also don't forget that you will need a free proprietary OS with 7+ yrs of updates included, an office software package, music and video productivity apps and development tools and IDE. All that software also for free.

Eagerly expecting your advancements in fairly priced laptop production.

Quote from: A on November 24, 2023, 19:43:59No need to thank me x2

You naive little fool - you weren't even here yet when I already described all this 10 times. You are a stupid imitator, repeating after me like a parrot. What I wrote years, decades ago.

Quote from: RobertJasiek on November 25, 2023, 00:59:49Up to 20 - 30 times is a more realistic assessment for Apple NAND.

Thanks to the population that pays exorbitant prices, we now have at least some hint of competition in the personal computer sector. Don't be Apple now. it would be a rotten x86 swamp. If there were no TSMC/Samsung and many educated people in Asia (see rankings of the level of education of young people here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programme_for_International_Student_Assessment)
Intel would become a one-man monster. But now it is just a catch-up company from the past, despite the fact that it had everything and full access to everything that the Western world has been giving to such companies for decades, but is rotten from the inside.

Unfortunately, in many areas of human activity there is no real competition, no matter how much we would like it, there are monopolies or clever oligopolies with the connivance (or even direct assistance) of the authorities of all countries (and the essence of local power is ultimately always the level of stupidity of the local population).

It is important that these accumulated resources from large companies actually go towards science and technology, towards the maximum development of promising children (those whom their parents and other close associates did not lose in early childhood), and not towards golden toilets, yachts and football clubs for rednecks and other such meaningless nonsense.

So let them pay, especially the kleptocratic layer in different countries, as the main target group of Apple, while Apple is not yet completely rotten, it makes sense.

Quote from: NikoB on November 25, 2023, 13:48:31You naive little fool - you weren't even here yet when I already described all this 10 times. You are a stupid imitator, repeating after me like a parrot. What I wrote years, decades ago.

Clown, just admit you had no idea as usual.
'Decades ago' made my day.

Quote from: NikoB on November 25, 2023, 13:48:31So let them pay, especially the kleptocratic layer in different countries, as the main target group of Apple, while Apple is not yet completely rotten, it makes sense.

Yeah, you were fast to backpedal your marxist bs about 'fair components price' when faced with an argument of making your own. Obviously you can't make sh*t yourself so now you _ALLOW_ Apple to do it, okay, thank you sir. )

'Kleptocratic layer'. M3 Max for $3500 is less or equal to monthly earnings of a professional in IT or 2d/3d design or content producer. It's a 'normal layer', it's just you being nobody doing nothing.

"A", you need to rest in a rehabilitation center. Don't overwork yourself here. Otherwise you'll burn out. How many of these have I already seen who have disappeared into oblivion...

Quote from: NikoB on November 25, 2023, 14:29:44"A", you need to rest in a rehabilitation center. Don't overwork yourself here. Otherwise you'll burn out. How many of these have I already seen who have disappeared into oblivion...

So you've been a local clown for a while? I can't call it an achievement, man.

And as for "marxist" ideas from me...so now you live almost in a communist country - what your elite fought against is what they ran into.

So relax and have fun in the new analogue of the USSR walk quickly along the same path.

Quote from: NikoB on November 25, 2023, 14:38:57And as for "marxist" ideas from me...so now you live almost in a communist country - what your elite fought against is what they ran into.
So relax and have fun in the new analogue of the USSR walk quickly along the same path.

.
I suppose politic events discussions with local grumpy clown are off-topic here.

Quote from: A on November 25, 2023, 14:42:18I suppose politic events discussions with local grumpy clown are off-topic here.

Your understanding of politics and what is happening on the planet is about the same as walking to the moon. Relax, your lot is to be a paid low-level bot.

Quote from: NikoB on November 25, 2023, 14:46:49Your understanding of politics and what is happening on the planet is about the same as walking to the moon. Relax, your lot is to be a paid low-level bot.

You just keep being a clown and insulting someone who again proved you don't know sh*t about tech.
I don't keep a grudge on you lol.

P.S. Ya, you'll also be interested how I smashed your "you can't run GPT models on PCs" bs in other discussion too. Classic.

Quote from: A on November 25, 2023, 14:50:16P.S. Ya, you'll also be interested how I smashed your "you can't run GPT models on PCs" bs in other discussion too. Classic.

I haven't laughed so much in a long time. Thank you for being with us.

Quote from: NikoB on November 25, 2023, 15:29:45I haven't laughed so much in a long time. Thank you for being with us.

No problem, you are also getting smarter and smarter every day because of our conversations.

Just in a week you've accepted that
a) MiniLED is cool
b) Apple is the best at efficiency today
c) GPTs can be run locally and do not require HUNDREDS OF TERABYTES OF RAM

Maybe it's not all lost for you and one day you will be less of a clown.

Quote from: A on November 25, 2023, 15:34:44b) Apple is the best at efficiency today

Apple PR, again by yourself.

(Hint: the most efficient chips depends on software and its usage.)

Quote from: RobertJasiek on November 25, 2023, 21:43:36Apple PR, again by yourself.

I'm just repeating after the best Apple PR manager NikoB himself:

Quote from: NikoB on November 25, 2023, 15:21:55rogress in recent years has not been due to a real rapid increase in performance per 1W, as before, but due to a "boost" (doping) in consumption beyond any reasonable limits for this class of devices.

Apple is the best here for obvious reasons - its chips have the best possible process technology on the planet from TSMC, today it is "3nm". And also a reasonable approach to limiting performance by boosting TDP. As a result, their laptops practically do not lose performance on battery compared to running on a power supply and at the same time have greater battery life - try to do the same trick with your Slim and quickly see how much performance it suffers on battery compared to running on a power suppl

Hehe, good call! I was only looking for short PR statements but you are right that I must also look for heaps and naive believers in over-generalisations.

Quote from: RobertJasiek on November 25, 2023, 21:43:36(Hint: the most efficient chips depends on software and its usage.)

Hard to compare, because M chips can do some stuff you will not be able to do on x86 laptops at all, like 120 billion parameters language model inferences at 56W consumption. I don't think you can buy 100GB VRAM x86 laptop for any kind of money, we aren't even coming to efficiency comparison.

Yeah, you can grab x86 desktop and start cramming several 4090s in it... Do we really want to do efficiency comparison in this case.

So yeah, comparing OpenCL score with CUDA cards and saying "it's just 4070 level of performance" is fun, but in the end...

Quote from: A on November 26, 2023, 10:33:21I don't think you can buy 100GB VRAM x86 laptop for any kind of money, we aren't even coming to efficiency comparison.

You can need more RAM you can use an eGPU that will still be faster and cheaper, you can't on a Mac. And you can use 100 GB VRAM on a Mac(Book)?

Quote from: A on November 26, 2023, 10:33:21So yeah, comparing OpenCL score with CUDA cards and saying "it's just 4070 level of performance" is fun, but in the end...

In the end? Gets to be slower in all variants including M3 Max than equivalent PC and even slower than M1s unless you go with the M3 Max?

M3 Pro vs RTX 4080m Laptop- Blender and Resolve Multicam Timeline Tests + Object Tracking + Timeline ➡➡ youtube.com/watch?v=7MC8WV-6Z_E

M3 Max Benchmarks with Stable Diffusion, LLMs, and 3D Rendering ➡➡ youtube.com/watch?v=YN4jFm-Eg6Q

Quote from: Toortle on November 26, 2023, 11:16:38You can need more RAM you can use an eGPU that will still be faster and cheaper, you can't on a Mac.

Which eGPU specifically will give you that much VRAM?

Quote from: Toortle on November 26, 2023, 11:16:38And you can use 100 GB VRAM on a Mac(Book)?

Yep, thanks to unified RAM almost all RAM can be used as VRAM.

Quote from: Toortle on November 26, 2023, 11:16:38Gets to be slower in all variants including M3 Max than equivalent PC and even slower than M1s unless you go with the M3 Max?

Yeah, that's what I'm talking about. Just cram several unrelated facts without context and put them into video. How about generating 4K images in Stable Diffusion on that x86 laptop, that requires 30-40Gb+ VRAM? 8K? 16K? Yeah, x86 laptop simply can't do that at all. Speed doesn't even matter in the end. Also he is using probably the worst possible app for SD generations.

Context for Blender is it's an open-source app, adapts to architecture changes very slowly, favors x86 platform. Apple even had to submit their own code to add support back in M1 days.

Quote from: Toortle on November 26, 2023, 11:16:38M3 Pro vs RTX 4080m

Btw unfair comparison. Pro is half the GPU.

Quote from: A on November 26, 2023, 11:48:20

Quote from: Toortle on November 26, 2023, 11:16:38M3 Pro vs RTX 4080m

Btw unfair comparison. Pro is half the GPU.

How is it unfair? You said this:

Quote from: A on November 26, 2023, 11:35:08Yep, thanks to unified RAM almost all RAM can be used as VRAM.

That MacBook in the vid has 18 GB of shared memory, 6 GB more than the RTX 4080 mobile. Why is it incapable to dedicate all 18 GB (as you claim) to VRAM and easily outperform that 4080 with is 12 GB?

Quote from: Toortle on November 26, 2023, 11:52:21How is it unfair? You said this:

I said that x86 laptops will not be able to run big language models. M3 Pro is able to run them, but comparing its GPU _performance_ to 4080 is unfair, because it's half the GPU.

Quote from: A on November 26, 2023, 11:35:08Yep, thanks to unified RAM almost all RAM can be used as VRAM.

That MacBook in the vid has 18 GB of shared memory, 6 GB more than the RTX 4080 mobile. Why is it incapable to dedicate all 18 GB (as you claim) to VRAM and easily outperform that 4080 with is 12 GB?
[/quote]
Because Apple prioritises system responsiveness, so you can't allocate all RAM to GPU and you can't allocate all RAM bandwidth to any single module. Limits are like this:
32GB MBP - Max 24GB VRAM - 34B LLM models
64GB MBP - Max 48GB VRAM - 70B LLM models
120GB MBP - give or take 100GB VRAM - 120B or 3bit quantized 180B LLM models
It's not about _outperforming_ it's about being unable to run big models on 4080 on that laptop at all. People are building rigs of two 4090s to run 70B models. So yeah, if you can tun it and 4080 can't - it's outperforming.

Quote from: Toortle on November 26, 2023, 11:16:38Gets to be slower in all variants including M3 Max than equivalent PC and even slower than M1s unless you go with the M3 Max?

He was using an incorrect way of testing LLMs, some crappy appstore app with a small 7B LLM model that actually never loaded M Soc enough to see the difference. He should be using llama.cpp with heavy models.

We can be more specific, if you wish, grab your x86 laptop and try running guanaco 65B LLM at 5 bit quantization and beat 12 tokens per second speed M1Max does.

I think you will fail on "try running" step.

youtube.com/watch?v=jaM02mb6JFM

Or you can just watch a video of how 4090 is faster on 7B model (noone actually uses those)
slightly faster on 13B model (probably around the best you can run on x86 laptop)
and M Max RAPES 4090 on 70B model (which is de-facto most balanced for running locally today) - and he explains that building x86 rig able to run it on GPU is worth more than M Max and uses way more power than M Max.

Fun starts at 5:47

At 8:52 you can also see performance/power charts that are quite crucial in AI productivity, 4090 loses.

@A not sure what you are on about.

Some people say that there are use cases in which windows laptops are superior, and you are trying to disprove them by showing that there are things that don't run on x86 laptops at all?

Quote from: Plum on November 26, 2023, 12:52:25Some people say that there are use cases in which windows laptops are superior, and you are trying to disprove them by showing that there are things that don't run on x86 laptops at all?

You need to follow the conversation before commenting that you are not sure what's this about.

It started about efficiency. Guy came in with 4090 performance banner. I've shown him that that performance banner can work both ways, if you cherry pick tests.

P.S. We kinda need to agree what is cherry picking first actually, showing that 4090 is faster using small models noone is using anymore or using real 2023 AI workflows when it's slower )

Quote from: A on November 26, 2023, 12:44:35youtube.com/watch?v=jaM02mb6JFM

Or you can just watch a video of how 4090 is faster on 7B model (noone actually uses those)
slightly faster on 13B model (probably around the best you can run on x86 laptop)
and M Max RAPES 4090 on 70B model (which is de-facto most balanced for running locally today) - and he explains that building x86 rig able to run it on GPU is worth more than M Max and uses way more power than M Max.

Fun starts at 5:47

At 8:52 you can also see performance/power charts that are quite crucial in AI productivity, 4090 loses.

Wait, so you want to say that the only purpose of M3 Max Macs is AI/ML (because they clearly lose in everything else such as content creation, gaming, engineering software (95%+ of it doesn't even exist for macOS nor it can be emulated) and so on?

And then you compare a $6,000+ M3 Max Mac with a $2,000 GPU? Ok, how about adding 2x 4090 + i9 14900K then into the equation to get a 40% faster CPU, 64 GB or RAM and 48 GB of VRAM for about the same price? pcpartpicker.com/list/LXt3mD

Or you can slot inside one Quadro RTX 8000 (4608 CUDA cores, 576 Tensor and 72 RT) for the same amount of VRAM and to save $300, a GPU specifically made for AI/ML. Add two of them, you get 96 GB of VRAM, and with just 20% higher price for the whole PC you get roughly 300% higher overall performance than a fully maxed M3 Max with 128 GB.

Quote from: Toortle on November 26, 2023, 13:09:02Wait, so you want to say that the only purpose of M3 Max Macs is AI/ML (because they clearly lose in everything else

How did you come to conclusion "they lose in everything else" looking only at Blender benchmark? ))) It's on par with most top-end x86 CPUs, it's extremely fast in image and video processing, and is plenty fast for most productivities.

Quote from: Toortle on November 26, 2023, 13:09:02Ok, how about adding 2x 4090 + i9 14900K then into the equation to get a 40% faster CPU, 64 GB or RAM and 48 GB of VRAM for about the same price? Add two of them, you get 96 GB of VRAM, and with just 20% higher price for the whole PC you get roughly 300% higher overall performance than a fully maxed M3 Max with 128 GB.

Is it portable? And what is the energy consumption compared to M3 Max's 60Watts?

So you kinda agree that power efficiency-wise x86 will be nowhere near M Max and to beat LAPTOP using 60W you need a desktop rig with top end CPU and two top-end GPUs for a total of what, 800-1000W? ))))

Quote from: A on November 26, 2023, 13:14:43

Quote from: Toortle on November 26, 2023, 13:09:02Wait, so you want to say that the only purpose of M3 Max Macs is AI/ML (because they clearly lose in everything else

How did you come to conclusion "they lose in everything else" looking only at Blender benchmark? ))) It's on par with most top-end x86 CPUs, it's extremely fast in image and video processing, and is plenty fast for most productivities.

There is no conclusion there at all, it's just the fact that it's nowhere near with anything comparable for the same amount money, be it in video editing, 3D modelling, creation and animation (Blender needs GPU more than CPU). You are here trying to portray M3 (Max only?) Macs as an ultimate machine capable to be faster and better than literally anything on the market for any existing purpose, while it happens to be clearly incorrect. Of course it is plenty fast for most productivities - at twice the cost of another equally fast laptop.

Quote from: A on November 26, 2023, 13:14:43

Quote from: Toortle on November 26, 2023, 13:09:02Ok, how about adding 2x 4090 + i9 14900K then into the equation to get a 40% faster CPU, 64 GB or RAM and 48 GB of VRAM for about the same price? Add two of them, you get 96 GB of VRAM, and with just 20% higher price for the whole PC you get roughly 300% higher overall performance than a fully maxed M3 Max with 128 GB.

Is it portable? And what is the energy consumption compared to M3 Max's 60Watts?

So you kinda agree that power efficiency-wise x86 will be nowhere near M Max and to beat LAPTOP using 60W you need a desktop rig with top end CPU and two top-end GPUs for a total of what, 800-1000W? ))))

No one even says that x86 more power efficient but why is power efficiency even important at all for a plugged in machines? M3 Max's GPU performance on battery is heavily nerfed, some 40% according to pretty much every existing review and measurements on them so far.

So you would rather get 101.7 Watt usage (measured in this existing review here) than a 300-700% faster PC with higher power consumption and with complete user reparability and freedom to upgrade/replace anything you want whenever you want? And let's also mention that your PC (desktop or laptop) won't die from literal dust: youtube.com/watch?v=AH5F73qPtQQ

Quote from: Toortle on November 26, 2023, 13:28:26So you would rather get 101.7 Watt usage (measured in this existing review here) than a 300-700% faster PC with higher power consumption and with complete user reparability and freedom to upgrade/replace anything you want whenever you want?

For the same price, I forgot to add.

Quote from: Toortle on November 26, 2023, 13:28:26There is no conclusion there at all, it's just the fact that it's nowhere near with anything comparable for the same amount money, be it in video editing, 3D modelling, creation and animation (Blender needs GPU more than CPU). You are here trying to portray M3 (Max only?) Macs as an ultimate machine capable to be faster and better than literally anything on the market for any existing purpose, while it happens to be clearly incorrect. Of course it is plenty fast for most productivities - at twice the cost of another equally fast laptop.

I never portrayed it like this, we were talking about _efficiency_ against x86 laptops and all of a sudden you decided to prove me something i know with your Blender shenanigans. Why not Geekbench? Geekbench is less convenient for you )

Quote from: Toortle on November 26, 2023, 13:28:26Of course it is plenty fast for most productivities - at twice the cost of another equally fast laptop.

"Equally fast" laptop that can't perform equal number of tasks and productivities*

Quote from: Toortle on November 26, 2023, 13:28:26No one even says that x86 more power efficient

This whole conversation was about efficiency when you've arrived.

Quote from: Toortle on November 26, 2023, 13:28:26M3 Max's GPU performance on battery is heavily nerfed, some 40% according to pretty much every existing review and measurements on them so far.

No

Quote from: Toortle on November 26, 2023, 13:28:26So you would rather get 101.7 Watt usage (measured in this existing review here) than a 300-700% faster PC with higher power consumption and with complete user reparability and freedom to upgrade/replace anything you want whenever you want?

People buy LAPTOP because they want LAPTOP. The fact that you have to use desktop and cram two GPUs in it to beat laptop is already a win for laptop, despite the fact desktop will be faster.

Quote from: Toortle on November 26, 2023, 13:31:40For the same price, I forgot to add.

Comparing desktop to laptop prices is VERY convenient for you )))

Quote from: A on November 26, 2023, 13:36:42I never portrayed it like this, we were talking about _efficiency_ against x86 laptops and all of a sudden you decided to prove me something i know with your Blender shenanigans. Why not Geekbench? Geekbench is less convenient for you )

My Blender shenanigans? It was you who mentioned it first, I didn't say anything about it until my last comment. I mean if you think that CPU is more important for Blender then you are free to run it at i9 with iGPU. And Geekbench, hmm... 7945HX 2882/17564 vs M3 Max 3096/21243. Then with that Ryzen you get 32 GB of upgradable RAM and an RTX 4090 with 16 GB VRAM. For $3,500, solid 35-ish% less than this M3 Max MacBook in this review.

Quote from: A on November 26, 2023, 13:36:42"Equally fast" laptop that can't perform equal number of tasks and productivities*

So that laptop above (Strix Scar 17) can't perform equal number of tasks and productivities? Seriously? And you are dead-serious about you not trying to say that the M3 Max is an ultimate machine better than anything? Nice, early April 1st.

Quote from: A on November 26, 2023, 13:36:42

Quote from: Toortle on November 26, 2023, 13:28:26No one even says that x86 more power efficient

This whole conversation was about efficiency when you've arrived.

I'm afraid that you will have to quote me on that, to show my post where I said that because I never even mentioned x86 all, searched even with Ctrl+F, until quoting your own words in my previous post.

Quote from: A on November 26, 2023, 13:36:42People buy LAPTOP because they want LAPTOP. The fact that you have to use desktop and cram two GPUs in it to beat laptop is already a win for laptop, despite the fact desktop will be faster.

I agree. Which is why the mentioned Strix Scar 17 for $2,000 is less is a much better choice as it's better than an M3 Max Mac no matter how high you spec that M3 Max - even with 128 GB you can freely upgrade that ROG to 128 or more and you can use an eGPU with 48 GB of VRAM - and still be $1,800 cheaper than that fully maxed M3 Max MacBook with higher performance. Plus you can play any game you want on it in full experience, as opposed to MacBook with halved fps (in the best scenario) 😁

Quote from: A on November 25, 2023, 15:34:44No problem, you are also getting smarter and smarter every day because of our conversations.

Just in a week you've accepted that
a) MiniLED is cool
b) Apple is the best at efficiency today
c) GPTs can be run locally and do not require HUNDREDS OF TERABYTES OF RAM

Maybe it's not all lost for you and one day you will be less of a clown.

Pathetic shameful bot A, lies outright and seems to be already using the forceful help of the moderator (no brain, no arguments other than bullying, so we use force when we lose - familiar?), who, to his shame and disgrace, ignores truth and science for the sake of bullying and cheap gaslighting. Which only confirms the shame of this site more and more. There aren't many readers here. But whoever reads all this sees...

What's wrong with this super expensive laptop?

We were promised RAM speeds of 300GB/s(for top config old 400GB/s from M2 MAX) for M3 Max. The result of the test is almost 3(4 for top max config ) times less, because the real efficiency of the memory controller is only 40%(<40 for max). Despite the fact that 400GB/s was declared in the M2 Max - but we did not see tests, only declarations.

Where does this impact the most? Yes, just when igpu is working. For it, the decisive factor is the bandwidth of the RAM, which is shared with the system and other devices.

Go ahead. Let's look at the performance of the SSD - a pitiful only poor 53MB/s@4k IOPs, despite the fact that even such a slow memory(vs official declaration) pumps ~10 GB/s at 4k IOPs, according to the test results. The difference is 200(!) times in favor of the RAM, which is at least 64GB, which reduces the need for swap with such a slow SSD to a minimum.

Well, the bots above have already talked about the slow (by response) screen. PWM is ok - 14kHz not visible for all. Can only add the strange (if not surprising) reluctance of the authors of Mac Book reviews to carry out hardware screen calibration and post the results after it.

It can also be noted that despite the premium segment and exorbitant price, a 14" laptop weighs as much as 15.6 x86 laptops, which is clearly too much for this segment. However, Apple fans are apparently pumped-up people.

The author does not write what the real noise is in intensive surfing in the maximum performance profile (where impulse performance is maximum, and this is what we need). I suspect that this laptop is not at all quiet in such surfing.

I would like to have noise tests in 4k@60fps and 8k@60fps mode (if supported by the system) on the same, for example, YouTube. Will the laptop be completely silent after at least half an hour of video playback? A simple test that immediately shows who is who.

Temperatures at the keyboard level are too high. This laptop is definitely dangerous to use with the lid closed with a high load on the processor with an external monitor - which could potentially lead to faster degradation of the miniLED panels whose critical operating temperature is approximately 50C.

In about another 3-4 years, Apple will also reach a dead end with technical processes in terms of performance per 1W - selling a new one with minimal improvement will be more and more difficult, especially at such prices. So, what is next? Increase TDP like Intel cheaters? Or is it again selling "rhinestones" instead of real progress in performance per 1W?

But is all this interesting to those who will actually buy it? After all, they buy Apple... ;)

Quote from: A on November 26, 2023, 13:37:17

Quote from: Toortle on November 26, 2023, 13:31:40For the same price, I forgot to add.

Comparing desktop to laptop prices is VERY convenient for you )))

Not at all. It is you who linked the video of a guy doing AI/ML where even he said that a 36 GB is incapable to complete anything and that 128 GB is basically required. And it is very convenient for you to basically claim at this point how Mac users are all doing AI/ML on the go (so they want laptops) instead at home with equally priced PC for up to 700% higher performance per $.

It is clearly visible that the whole "discussion" comes down to the maximum removal of the most valuable comments from the top next to the review text. If the editors change the arrangement of comments at the end of the review to normal - the old ones will be first, as it should be, and all the bots will immediately start wagging their tails in anticipation articles, because whoever writes that comment first and will read the majority. The topic is as old as forums and comments on the Internet.

Any decent and sensible person can easily determine who the liar is here by reading your stupid nonsense and what I write. So relax, you lost a long time ago and showed how much dumber and less educated you are than me.

Quote from: Toortle on November 26, 2023, 13:28:26And let's also mention that your PC (desktop or laptop) won't die from literal dust

Yeah, but models prior to 2021, so don't worry, you will be fine.

Quote from: Toortle on November 26, 2023, 13:55:38My Blender shenanigans?

Yeah because everyone knows x86 is faster in Blender (you can literally just google 'blender benchmark' and see it, and it was posted out of context.

Quote from: Toortle on November 26, 2023, 13:55:38I'm afraid that you will have to quote me on that, to show my post where I said that because I never even mentioned x86 all, searched even with Ctrl+F, until quoting your own words in my previous post.

You have responded to my message to RobertJasiek where we were discussing efficiency and that it's hard to make a direct comparison because x86 can't run big AI models.

Quote from: Toortle on November 26, 2023, 13:55:38I agree. Which is why the mentioned Strix Scar 17 for $2,000 is less is a much better choice as it's better than an M3 Max Mac no matter how high you spec that M3 Max - even with 128 GB you can freely upgrade that ROG to 128 or more and you can use an eGPU with 48 GB of VRAM - and still be $1,800 cheaper than that fully maxed M3 Max MacBook with higher performance.

Again price comparison shenanigans ), you compare laptop with 48GB VRAM able to run 34B models to 'maxed out' 128Gb laptop able to run 120B models. Please compare it to 64Gb base M3 Max for, i don't remember, $3500?

Quote from: NikoB on November 26, 2023, 14:05:02It is clearly visible that the whole "discussion" comes down to the maximum removal of the most valuable comments from the top next to the review text. If the editors change the arrangement of comments at the end of the review to normal - the old ones will be first, as it should be, and all the bots will immediately start wagging their tails in anticipation articles, because whoever writes that comment first and will read the majority. The topic is as old as forums and comments on the Internet.

Now someone is removing you, the most valuable member of the community aka clown everyone is laughing at? Man you need medical attention, like seriously, I'm not joking.

@Toortle please don't miss my other response to you above between this clown's insults.

Quote from: Toortle on November 26, 2023, 13:55:38So that laptop above (Strix Scar 17) can't perform equal number of tasks and productivities? Seriously? And you are dead-serious about you not trying to say that the M3 Max is an ultimate machine better than anything? Nice, early April 1st.

I never said 'M3 Max is an ultimate machine', you made it up. All I said was x86 can't run big LLMs. And yes, seriously, your Strix still can't run it and it's can't do large image Stable Diffusion inferences too.

P.S.

Quote from: Toortle on November 26, 2023, 13:55:38even with 128 GB you can freely upgrade that ROG to 128 or more and you can use an eGPU with 48 GB of VRAM

Also, maybe you haven't noticed but you again had to basically convert your laptop to desktop AND increase power consumption by 300-400W to make it competitive with 115W laptop.

Maybe it's time to admit that there's a reason for pricing and it's more efficient at comparable (let's meet in the middle here) performance? And that you can't do the same at 56W on x86... Or we're caring about power consumption and climate only on Twitter?..

Quote from: A on November 26, 2023, 14:18:01

Quote from: Toortle on November 26, 2023, 13:55:38I agree. Which is why the mentioned Strix Scar 17 for $2,000 is less is a much better choice as it's better than an M3 Max Mac no matter how high you spec that M3 Max - even with 128 GB you can freely upgrade that ROG to 128 or more and you can use an eGPU with 48 GB of VRAM - and still be $1,800 cheaper than that fully maxed M3 Max MacBook with higher performance.

Again price comparison shenanigans ), you compare laptop with 48GB VRAM able to run 34B models to 'maxed out' 128Gb laptop able to run 120B models. Please compare it to 64Gb base M3 Max for, i don't remember, $3500?

No worries.

Base 14" M3 Max 64 GB is available for $3,899 -> apple.com/shop/buy-mac/macbook-pro/14-inch-space-black-apple-m3-max-with-14-core-cpu-and-30-core-gpu-36gb-memory-1tb

Base 16" M3 Max 64 is available for $4,199 -> apple.com/shop/buy-mac/macbook-pro/16-inch-space-black-apple-m3-max-with-16-core-cpu-and-40-core-gpu-48gb-memory-1tb

1 TB in both, nothing upgradable, 14" being $400 more expensive and 16" $700 more expensive than an upgradable laptop with 7945HX with 32 GB + RTX 4090 16 GB. Upgrade RAM to 128 GB and it is stil cheaper than both M3 Max 64 GB Macs above 😁

Or check this here - even faster CPU 7945HX3D, also RTX 4090 16 GB, 2 TB base storage which is replacable, 32 GB of upgradable RAM for still cheaper than any M3 Max newegg.com/p/2WC-000N-0E5M9

Superior GPU and 40%+ faster CPU than M3 Max 16C:

cpubenchmark.net/compare/5232vs5748/AMD-Ryzen-9-7945HX-vs-Apple-M3-Max-16-Core

notebookcheck.net/Apple-M3-Max-16-Core-vs-R9-7945HX3D_15113_15073.247596.0.html

Quote from: A on November 26, 2023, 14:37:50Also, maybe you haven't noticed but you again had to basically convert your laptop to desktop AND increase power consumption by 300-400W to make it competitive with 115W laptop.

Maybe it's time to admit that there's a reason for pricing and it's more efficient at comparable (let's meet in the middle here) performance? And that you can't do the same at 56W on x86... Or we're caring about power consumption and climate only on Twitter?..

Wow, Apple fan(atic) talking about climate and power consumption while Apple is the leading tech company in producing e-waste starting with all devices made to be nonrepairable and with soldered everything including the storage.

And you are talking like it's $400-500 cheaper? Or how much?

Quote from: Toortle on November 26, 2023, 14:46:222 TB base storage

Replaceable SSD is a pain for M mac owners yeah.

Quote from: Toortle on November 26, 2023, 14:46:22Superior GPU

Superior for gaming and 3d workloads (maybe not so much when Blender devs will finally optimize their software), useless for actual AI productivity in 2023*

Actual data for Blender using their own benchmark looks like this:
NVIDIA GeForce RTX 4090 Laptop GPU    8203.46
NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3080    3172.08
Apple M3 Max (GPU - 40 cores)    3014.83
4090 surely destroys M3 because OPTIX optimizations are in place and Apple Silicon optimizations are sadly not present. (

Quote from: Toortle on November 26, 2023, 14:46:2240%+ faster CPU

As for CPU-only Blender rendering,
AMD Ryzen 9 7900X3D 12-Core Processor    412.81
Apple M3 Max    412.39
AMD Ryzen 9 7845HX with Radeon Graphics    370.47

And Geekbench
2695/15262 Ryzen
3070/21405 M3 Max
Or do I have to use some specific benchmark that's more convenient for Ryzen.

Quote from: Toortle on November 26, 2023, 14:48:21Wow, Apple fan(atic)

Please, don't go down to 'apple fan' rhetoric when you are running out of arguments, there's plenty of clowns here who will gladly do it for you. We're just having a friendly and argumented discussion, right?

I don't care about Apple itself and no idea if your data is even true, I'm caring about my own power consumption. I know that Apple can buy a working M1 Max laptop out for $1300 toward next laptop no questions asked to not create e-waste, they will probably refurbish it and sell to next user or reuse body or at least aluminum. Will ASUS buy their ROG Strix out? Nope. When you run out of CPU power it goes to landfill. So who knows, who knows, you might be right, but my eyes tell me the other e-waste story.

P.S. Also side note about gaming and comparison to 4090 - we actually have no idea how it performs because those games in review are not only NOT arm-optimized, they are not even MacOS-compatible games at all. It's _Windows games_ ran through three layers emulation, one of which is translating Windows API to MacOS and another translating D3D calls to Metal.

I kinda myself find it amusing M3 Max is able to run these Windows games @100fps at high settings, idk. I don't game myself though.

They are always using BMW or Classroom for Blender benchmark cause there other benchmarks do not fit most windows laptop video memory like that big furry dino 25Gb.

@A also the few available games that run natively on M chips perform much better on x86.

Was off during the weekend so just starting to catch up discussion. But one point is worth closer consideration. Do huge language models when inferred really need much VRAM or would much RAM, say 128GB, with an ordindary amount of VRAM, say 20GB, be enough?

Quote from: RobertJasiek on November 26, 2023, 19:54:26Was off during the weekend so just starting to catch up discussion. But one point is worth closer consideration. Do huge language models when inferred really need much VRAM or would much RAM, say 128GB, with an ordindary amount of VRAM, say 20GB, be enough?

Quote from: A on November 26, 2023, 12:44:35youtube.com/watch?v=jaM02mb6JFM

Or you can just watch a video of how 4090 is faster on 7B model (noone actually uses those)
slightly faster on 13B model (probably around the best you can run on x86 laptop)
and M Max RAPES 4090 on 70B model (which is de-facto most balanced for running locally today) - and he explains that building x86 rig able to run it on GPU is worth more than M Max and uses way more power than M Max.

Fun starts at 5:47

Quote from: Plum on November 26, 2023, 19:25:48@A also the few available games that run natively on M chips perform much better on x86.

I'm not much into gaming and never was looking at it, any links to check out?

@RobertJasiek replied to you on previous page

Let me summarise some findings.

If RAM, VRAM or Unified Memory are too small, execution is impossible or too slow as expected.

Large language models are an example where VRAM or Unified Memory must not be too small. If x64 has too little VRAM and M3 Max has enough Unified Memory, the latter is much faster. x64 with enough VRAM can be as expensive and then is significantly faster. Efficiency needs evaluation. M3 Max fans generate noise and high frequency coil whine but dB values are missing. x64 loudness depends on computer models; unsually but not necessarily louder.

Usually, image AI, 3D rendering and video rendering are roughly 4 ~ 5 times faster on 4090 desktop than on M3 Max. There can be exceptions. Efficiency needs evaluation. Usually, M3 Max has low noise but x64 with similar speeds can also be configured to have low noise and x64 with intermediate speeds can be configured to have not quite low but still acceptable noise.

Software (such as machine learning abstract game tools) using CUDA and especially Tensor cores well are very much faster and much more efficient per TDP but on much higher absolute TDPs on x64 than M3 Max for same prices.

Software parameters and other configurations play a great role.

It is crucially important to get the right device for the right job. A wrong device is over-priced, slow or does not work at all.

Quote from: RobertJasiek on November 27, 2023, 11:10:03If x64 has too little VRAM

Which is always the case of laptop x86 GPU except for the lightest of models. Apple Silicon can work with big (normal) models fast, x86 laptops basically can't.

Quote from: RobertJasiek on November 27, 2023, 11:10:03M3 Max fans generate noise and high frequency coil whine

Fans barely audible, 1950 RPM. Coil whine is there but it's more funny than loud.

Quote from: RobertJasiek on November 27, 2023, 11:10:03image AI

Same limitations with VRAM on x86, can do only only small image generations. I've done a huge 4K/8K upscales on Apple Silicon.

Quote from: RobertJasiek on November 27, 2023, 11:10:03x64 with similar speeds can also be configured to have low noise

If you do it, it'll just immediately dip below Apple Silicon Geekbench performance much like it does every time when you pull AC plug.

Quote from: RobertJasiek on November 27, 2023, 11:10:033D rendering

Yes.

Quote from: RobertJasiek on November 27, 2023, 11:10:03video rendering

On par. M will beat 4090 in many tasks e.g. export. In even more tasks if x86 is unplugged from AC.

Quote from: RobertJasiek on November 27, 2023, 11:10:03It is crucially important to get the right device for the right job.

Today only 2 types of productivity really require x86 - games and 3d rendering. With latter being a so-so category - it's fun to run BMW benchmark taking several seconds and all, but in reality 4090 is not enough and after your projects start taking 10+ mins to render (which is like 90% of actual projects) - they immediately switch to external render farms. No one's doing serious 3d rendering on laptop. Remember in professional 3d world even software licenses are like $2K/year.

So of you cherry pick benchmarks you can make either of these two look bad or very bad. Reality is they are roughly on par with Apple Silicon being more of a LAPTOP and x86 being a PORTABLE DESKTOP, like that $4300 "laptop" the other guy advertised me yesterday, with 4hr web surfing battery life.

Just an example of plugged/unplugged x86

3DMark Wild Life Extreme
M2 Max 38C (M2 not M3) unplugged - 150.8FPS

MSI Z16P 3080Ti - 119.6FPS
MSI Z16P 3080Ti unplugged - 27.5FPS

MSI GT77HX 4090 - 259.5FPS
MSI GT77HX 4090 unplugged - 64.2FPS

M3 Max 40C unplugged - 188.3FPS

Quote from: A on November 27, 2023, 11:59:35Which is always the case of laptop x86 GPU except for the lightest of models.

Can we please speak of x64 (computers with 64 bit CPUs)? The days of x86 (computers with 32 bit CPUs) are long gone.

I guess what you want to say is: "except for the lightest of machine learning language models".

Because the comparatively small amount of VRAM of x64 notebooks with sufficient RAM works fine for many tasks. There are well-known exceptions, of course, and Nvidia tries to upsell to 4090 (desktop or laptop).

QuoteApple Silicon can work

Not Apple Silicon per se but Apple Silicon with a sufficiently large amount of Unified Memory.

QuoteFans barely audible

There have also been different reports.

QuoteSame limitations with VRAM on x86, can do only only small image generations.

Not on x64 computers per se, but on those with insufficient VRAM. (Among which there are too many notebooks indeed.)

QuoteM will beat 4090 in many tasks e.g. export.

Vice versa for many more video tasks, according to reviews I have seen.

Quoteunplugged from AC.

You can emphasise the power plug but reality is: also MBP need it soon under high load.

QuoteToday only 2 types of productivity really require x86 - games and 3d rendering.

If these are the only such types you know, educate yourself! In fact, I have told you countless times that my used software of a third type requires a Nvidia GPU to get acceptable speeds. Every other hardware is just hopelessly slow for that purpose.

QuoteNo one's doing serious 3d rendering on laptop.

Some do it. I guess their objects are small enough to make it feasible.

QuoteRemember in professional 3d world even software licenses are like $2K/year.

Sure, if speak about the big boys.

Quote from: RobertJasiek on November 27, 2023, 13:21:19Can we please speak of x64 (computers with 64 bit CPUs)? The days of x86 (computers with 32 bit CPUs) are long gone.

x86 is a family of architectures, and is the correct name. x86-64 is just a subset of it. One can freely use both names.

Quote from: RobertJasiek on November 27, 2023, 13:21:19Not Apple Silicon per se but Apple Silicon with a sufficiently large amount of Unified Memory.

Base M3 Max are enough for 70B models, x86 laptop sellers will never tell you 8/16/24Gb will not be capable of AI tasks or rendering big scenes. Basically you will not be able to find x86 with enough VRAM

Quote from: RobertJasiek on November 27, 2023, 13:21:19You can emphasise the power plug but reality is: also MBP need it soon under high load.

Reality is you will need AC plug MUCH sooner on x86 under any load lower than full. Unless you've forgot 16 inch M3 Max has 15hrs wifi websurfing. And keep in mind x86 is MUCH crippled in performance on battery, so "full load" is different.

Quote from: RobertJasiek on November 27, 2023, 13:21:19If these are the only such types you know, educate yourself! In fact, I have told you countless times that my used software of a third type requires a Nvidia GPU to get acceptable speeds. Every other hardware is just hopelessly slow for that purpose.

Be more specific, what software exactly is it, educate me.

Quote from: RobertJasiek on November 27, 2023, 13:21:19There have also been different reports.

My opinion is based on running 70B LLM models myself.

Quote from: RobertJasiek on November 27, 2023, 13:21:19Vice versa for many more video tasks, according to reviews I have seen.

Confirmation bias. All you guys usually do is watching x86-specific reviews with Cinebench as the main benchmark, zero testing on battery etc. ) Just like that guy yesterday who simply claimed 7945HX3D is 40% faster than M3Max out of thin air )

@A

Re games: e.g. watch?v=F7QDC5j6KM0&t=2s

QuoteReality is you will need AC plug MUCH sooner on x86 under any load lower than full. Unless you've forgot 16 inch M3 Max has 15hrs wifi websurfing.

Do you really get such run times out of your Macbook? Unfortunately I wasn't even able to get a full 8 hours workday out of 16 inch M1 Pro, using only productivity (web) apps such as Google Meet, GMail, Hubspot, Slack, Jira, Discord, Telegram etc.

I am typically running dozens of tabs at the same time for productivity reasons and would always run very low on battery after only 4-5 hours.

So while I agree that Macbooks are more efficient, and run longer on battery, unfortunately the full workday on battery remains a dream for me.

Re AI use cases: I don't know much about this topic but I am curious: In the grand scheme of things, is Apple a relevant player in that area? I was under the impression that Nvidia is spearheading there and that AI was one of the reasons why their stock price skyrocketed recently.

Quote from: A on November 27, 2023, 13:54:52Base M3 Max are enough for 70B models

And with 200B language models, you throw away your MBP.

Quotex86 laptop sellers will never tell you 8/16/24Gb will not be capable of AI tasks

Because it is wrong. It always depends on what AI task, the AI model configuration and the usage.

E.g., as I have told before, 1GB VRAM is too much for the AI task I use.

QuoteBasically you will not be able to find x86 with enough VRAM

You mean: a) notebooks; b) only those AI tasks needing more VRAM.

QuoteReality is you will need AC plug MUCH sooner on x86 under any load lower than full.

We are comparing to M3 Max and not to M3 Pro, right? Windows notebooks deliver up to 17h for Wifi use.

QuoteUnless you've forgot 16 inch M3 Max has 15hrs wifi websurfing.

See. Some Windows notebooks offer LONGER times.

QuoteAnd keep in mind x86 is MUCH crippled in performance on battery

This is the current rumour spread by NBC writers but IIRC it is wrong. More likely, BY FAR THE MOST x64 notebooks are crippled in performance on battery.

Quotewhat software exactly is it, educate me.

KataGo for TensorRT together with the necessary Nvidia GPU libraries and a GUI. I.e., a Go playing / analysing software.

Quote from: A on November 27, 2023, 14:04:43Confirmation bias.

Probably.

QuoteAll you guys usually do is watching x86-specific reviews with Cinebench as the main benchmark,

Of course not.

Quote from: Plum on November 27, 2023, 14:45:36Re AI use cases: I don't know much about this topic but I am curious: In the grand scheme of things, is Apple a relevant player in that area? I was under the impression that Nvidia is spearheading there and that AI was one of the reasons why their stock price skyrocketed recently.

Hardware: It is mostly Nvidia GPUs, AMD CPUs, maybe also IBM mainframes, Microsoft for servers, Amazon for servers.

Software: Currently, Apple is a small fish. The big fish are Google (who bought DeepMind) and some other big companies but I forgot which of them (might be Microsoft, but unsure). Then there are the specialist AI companies, especially those for language or image models, until bought up.

Quote from: RobertJasiek on November 27, 2023, 15:07:34And with 200B language models, you throw away your MBP.

Even GPT4 is 16 111B models with MoE, so it's not going to happen anytime soon. )

Quote from: RobertJasiek on November 27, 2023, 15:07:34Because it is wrong. It always depends on what AI task, the AI model configuration and the usage. E.g., as I have told before, 1GB VRAM is too much for the AI task I use.

You can't cheat math and 70B LLM is 'smarter' than 33B, 33B model is smarter than 15B, 15B model is smarter than 7B. So you are limited to worst of them with x86 laptops VRAM.

Quote from: RobertJasiek on November 27, 2023, 15:07:34You mean: a) notebooks; b) only those AI tasks needing more VRAM.

All of the modern NNs require a lot of VRAM today.

Quote from: RobertJasiek on November 27, 2023, 15:07:34We are comparing to M3 Max and not to M3 Pro, right? Windows notebooks deliver up to 17h for Wifi use.

Quote from: RobertJasiek on November 27, 2023, 15:07:34See. Some Windows notebooks offer LONGER times.

*at crippled performance
Are they comparable in performance to M Max or they are more in Macbook Air league?

Quote from: RobertJasiek on November 27, 2023, 15:07:34KataGo

Should run on Apple Silicon, would be interesting to compare.

Quote from: RobertJasiek on November 27, 2023, 15:10:13Of course not.

Yeah, people here didn't know about their GPU limitations, people didn't know performance tests on x86 are being ran at one level of performance and battery life tested at another, sometimes 4 times worse, people didn't know Cinebench is a benchmark based on Intel code with years, if not decades, of hand-optimization for x86, Blender still has like half of Apple Silicon support items not done in their git issue, etc etc...
Clearly no one ever pulled their nose out of x86 reviews. Well, at least three years later guys agreed Intel is sh*t.

Quote from: Plum on November 27, 2023, 14:45:36Do you really get such run times out of your Macbook? Unfortunately I wasn't even able to get a full 8 hours workday out of 16 inch M1 Pro, using only productivity (web) apps such as Google Meet, GMail, Hubspot, Slack, Jira, Discord, Telegram etc.

Because it's "web surfing". NBC's tests are quite standardized:

QuoteWi-Fi mode: the possible battery life while surfing the Internet via Wi-Fi with medium brightness (~150 cd/m²) and power-saving options ("balanced" mode) switched on. We measure the runtime by letting the device run an automatic script (HTML 5, JavaScript, no Flash - update 03.05.2015 v1.3), which picks a mix of websites and switches between them every 30 seconds.

This is how they get 15 hours. It's far from daily usage but as it's standard for all laptops you can see how they perform COMPARED to each other. This doesn't mean you will be always getting 15 hrs, you will be getting something between Wifi Websurfing and Full Load times.

Quote from: Plum on November 27, 2023, 14:45:36I am typically running dozens of tabs at the same time for productivity reasons and would always run very low on battery after only 4-5 hours.

Install Stats app, it has System Total power metric. You will be able to monitor your usage and get your run time by dividing 100Wh (if you are running 16 inch) by your avg consumption.

Right now I have 1000 tabs open (not a joke), 2 heavy IDEs - PyTorch, Rider, Slack, Discord, Telegram, Mail SourceTree, DBeaver, 33B model loaded locally in llama.cpp (idle, but i was heavily using it couple hours before) and couple other apps - my _average consumption for today_ is 14.15W, it will give me 7.5 hours of battery life with this workload.

Quote from: Plum on November 27, 2023, 14:45:36So while I agree that Macbooks are more efficient, and run longer on battery, unfortunately the full workday on battery remains a dream for me.

Stats app will help you find the culprit. I know a guy who is working in Photoshop and his M1Pro lasts for 9hrs. I think in your workload you will be surprised to see display brightness is the most part of power consumption. )

Quote from: Plum on November 27, 2023, 14:45:36I don't know much about this topic but I am curious: In the grand scheme of things, is Apple a relevant player in that area? I was under the impression that Nvidia is spearheading there and that AI was one of the reasons why their stock price skyrocketed recently.

The only thing Apple is using AI right now on macbooks is ocr and object recognition in your images while macbook is asleep. Seemingly on ALL of them after Sonoma dropped, not only photo library. Of course it's all just to make Spotlight searches faster and your data isn't going anywhere and not used for ad targeting (wink wink).

Officially it's only for Spotlight.

Quote from: A on November 27, 2023, 15:27:10All of the modern NNs require a lot of VRAM today.

Wrong, as just explained to you. Apparently, it is the modern language or image NNs that require a lot of VRAM today. But not every other modern NN.

QuoteShould run on Apple Silicon, would be interesting to compare.

The most recent Apple M I have direct KataGo information on is the M1:

home.snafu.de/jasiek/AI_Computer.html#mozTocId752162

home.snafu.de/jasiek/AI_Computer.html#mozTocId402496

Quoteguys agreed Intel is sh*t.

Intel is good for Wifi / office use: long battery life, low noise, fast single core are possible.

A, one question. Since you use these language models a lot, what do you use them for? How good are they? Is it fun to use them? Where should they be better?

Quote from: RobertJasiek on November 27, 2023, 20:01:18Wrong, as just explained to you. Apparently, it is the modern language or image NNs that require a lot of VRAM today. But not every other modern NN.

Actually all of them. If yours doesn't require a lot of VRAM than it's not a big model aaaand it's either for a very easy task or not modern enough. Every generative AI needs a lot of RAM, e.g. in image generation VRAM demands grow exponentially with generated image size.
And game AIs... They are with us for quite a while already, I think AlphaGo for go and Leela Zero for chess were a thing many years ago. Can't call them modern.

Quote from: RobertJasiek on November 27, 2023, 20:01:18Intel is good for Wifi / office use: long battery life, low noise, fast single core are possible.

Yeah, that's MacBook Air league.

Quote from: RobertJasiek on November 27, 2023, 20:01:18The most recent Apple M I have direct KataGo information on is the M1

As an Apple fanatic I sincerely enjoy when i see M1 iPad and 4070 in the same comparison. ))) I'd expect M Max to be around 4070 OpenCL if they have Metal support and lower if it's only OpenCL, cause Apple dropped OpenCL support and it's implemented via emulation layer on Metal.

Quote from: RobertJasiek on November 27, 2023, 20:04:53Since you use these language models a lot, what do you use them for? How good are they? Is it fun to use them? Where should they be better?

They are very good and there is a lot of them, trained for different purposes, from writing to attempts at solving math. I'm using only two types - coding LLMs and writing aka general chat LLMs.  Math LLMs are awful at math. ) And yeah, it is as much fun as uncensored chatGPT, e.g. you can make a horny crossover of Lord of the Rings and The Office just for laughs.

33-34B ones are smart'ish, can be used daily and give good results, just need to find a model of your liking. 70B are considered very smart. Sadly 70B is the sweet spot today, because open-source community isn't a multi-billion corp and 120B+ models are right now undertrained, not even talking about 180B. Also there's a balance between model size and context (how far back model can 'remember' what are you two are talking about). Context also uses a bunch of VRAM and some people prefer e.g. 34B model and 40K tokens context over 70B models with small context etc. Decisions are made solely on VRAM available.

You can go to r/localllama reddit, there's a TON of info.

KataGo uses a 95 MB net. But the advantage of Go is that the move coordinates only require a few bits. Some 50 billion moves or so fill 64 GB RAM but only 1 GB VRAM.

The Go task is way above top human's lifetime study, so not at all easy.

AlphaGo was 2015/2016. KataGo started ca. 2018. "Modern" for my taste.

"Every generative AI needs a lot of RAM, e.g. in image generation VRAM demands grow exponentially with generated image size." Interesting!

"I'd expect M Max to be around 4070 OpenCL if they have Metal support" A bit too optimistic, but it would be interesting to see Metal support indeed.

Thx for language model comments!

@A is it possible that with a different script (Using different websites, different web apps etc.), the relative results between two laptops could be different?

I would think so, as I can also often see that e.g. video streaming battery test behaves relatively different to WiFi test.

Quote from: Plum on November 28, 2023, 01:55:03@A is it possible that with a different script (Using different websites, different web apps etc.), the relative results between two laptops could be different?

Yes, different websites consume different amount of energy on load and when displayed. And you actually can't predict which one without actually measuring power draw, because sometimes it's sites looking quite lightly.

Quote from: Plum on November 28, 2023, 01:55:03video streaming battery test

I'm not a fan of video test cause actually it's a mostly a test of hardware video decoding. Usually the laptop with deeper hardware codec implementation wins ahem ahem macbooks with their hw codecs for like everything.

Btw if you are using Chrome or Firefox, check that your Youtubeserves you videos in VP9, not AV1. Right click video - stats for nerds. There are browser extensions to pick which formats you prefer for Youtube, e.g. enhanced-h264ify for Firefox. On M1/M2 chips AV1 is running in software, they've added hardware decoder only in M3 generation. And make sure "ambient mode" is disabled - it's an awful battery hog on some browsers - it's in settings on video.

Quote from: A on November 28, 2023, 08:40:44I'm not a fan of video test cause actually it's a mostly a test of hardware video decoding. Usually the laptop with deeper hardware codec implementation wins ahem ahem macbooks with their hw codecs for like everything.

They switched back to Intel?

Quote from: Neenyah on November 28, 2023, 08:49:21They switched back to Intel?

Nah, they've fully implemented codecs in a separate hardware module instead of, like, 'decoding/encoding acceleration'.

@A

You are right that I need to look into it more specifically. Dozen tabs was an underestimation, tbh. It could well be more than 1,000 tabs for me as well across various browser windows.

In any case, the difference between my Mac and my Windows Laptop seems to be much less than what the NBC tests suggest, also relatively speaking.

What drains the most battery for me are Google Meet meetings. A thirty minutes video call costs almost 20% in battery life... I can literally watch the battery drain during the meeting. Is your experience with Google Meet different?

A quick Google search indicates that I am not alone with this problem, specifically on Mac. Here is a quote from the Apple discussion boards which received almost 300 'Me too's from other users (thread id 251938676):

QuoteHigh battery usage in Google Meet

With online classes, we have to use Google Meet to attend class with our webcam on. However, I notice that my battery life drains from 100% to almost 0% in less than two hours. My MacBook Pro is barely a year old (13inch MBP, 2019). Likewise, a friend with a PC in chrome (an older laptop), his battery lasts much longer even though my battery is much newer. What can I do to be able to save more battery and make using google meet more efficient? I've been running it using Safari.

It is not unusual for me to have 5-10 Google Meet meetings per day, so unfortunately that alone will not allow me to leave the house without a charger.

My Mac also constantly shows Chrome and Discord (FYI: I am constantly at the 200 servers limit, such that I also have a separate Discord instance running in the browser for additional servers) as heavy battery drainers.

Just realized that the user in question must be still using the x86 Macs, if his Mac was from 2019, however with my M1 Mac Pro 16 inch, my experience is very similar.

Quote from: Plum on November 28, 2023, 11:10:24Is your experience with Google Meet different?

I don't use it.

Quote from: Plum on November 28, 2023, 11:10:24A thirty minutes video call costs almost 20% in battery life...

Sounds like 40W power draw to me. Bit on the crazy side actually, I just turned camera on (without call) in Zoom, consumption with background blur and beautifier grew only by a little less than a Watt from idle.

Quote from: Plum on November 28, 2023, 11:10:24My Mac also constantly shows Chrome and Discord

Chrome being there is fine probably, Discord not so. But I imagine 200+ discord chats can keep that CPU constantly busy'ish just by receiving messages.

@A

Just for reference: Here are a few more links with the same problems for video conferencing including M1 users, which can be easily find online.

Macrumors forums (threads/google-meet-battery-drain-m1pro.2389600/):

Quotehey guys,

Trying to get some additional information on this. I am upgrading from an M1 MacBook Air to a 14" M1 Pro MacBook Pro and am alarmed at the battery drain, specifically during Google Meets with Safari. My battery drains over 20% in less than 1 hour. This seems to be more than double what I experienced using the M1 Air (1hour~ 10% battery loss). FWIW, meetings over Zoom do not seem to be hitting the battery as hard as Google Meet.
Is this a normal amount of battery drain for this machine/processor?
Any tips to reduce this battery drain? Would the updated Chrome help with this?
Thanks so much for your insight!

Reddit: /r/MacOS/comments/ibzloc/i_thought_the_macbook_battery_lasts_for_around_8/

QuoteI thought the MacBook battery lasts for around 8 hours. I just came out of a google meet and it's gone down 32%, what am I doing wrong here?

Although I am not using it a lot, it seems that Zoom as a similar problem:

From Zoom Community forums (/t5/Meetings/14-quot-Macbook-Pro-M1-Pro-CPU-horrible-battery-life-with-Zoom/m-p/22233):

QuoteMy base-model 14" Macbook Pro (M1 Pro CPU) gets really good battery life unless I fire up Zoom. I've tried it twice so far:

1st time - 1hr43m Zoom meeting drained battery from 100% to 38%. Nothing else running in the background.

2nd time - 1hr30m Zoom meeting drained battery from 100% to 51%. Again, nothing running in the background.

I verified that I am running the "Apple Silicon" version of Zoom with System Information.

All I can say is that Zoom absolutely destroys my brand new MBP's battery way too fast!

Is anyone else seeing this problem?
Tim

Some users commenting on the thread:

QuoteI'm also experiencing this. Just did a zoom call with only Safari open in the background and battery went down 20% in 50 minutes.

QuoteThe same issue with mine! But not only zoom - TEAMS, MESSENGER, MEET, SKYPE ... all of these apps drain the battery of my M1 Pro like crazy. I noticed that on average these apps consume around 20-25% battery / 1 hour. Everything else runs simply perfect, besides when I have to do some conference calls - I get roughly 5 hours if I'm lucky. Without calls around 10 hours on battery.

The fact that generally no one tries to refute this issue across the internet indicates for me, that it is a widespread problem and not an isolated problem for myself.

So basically, anyone who needs to attend regular Google Meet (or Zoom) conferences during work, has no chance to get through his work day without a charger on a Mac Pro...

Might be different if for your work you barely need to attend such meetings, but for everyone else...Charger it is pretty much for every work day :-(

Quote from: Plum on November 28, 2023, 11:55:27or Zoom

I'm often on Zoom calls, consumption numbers never looked outstanding or high, raising by around 1-2 watts. We've even discussed once M1 MBA doing a Zoom call using 2.7W with screen sharing.

Just to compare, Genshin Impact uses 24W on MBP M Max. Inferencing a 70B language model - 56W. Meeting apps can't be more than that or even around that, right? Yet you have 40W. Something is wrong. What is the CPU/GPU usage in activity Monitor? Does fan kick in? Any Rosetta apps running?

Actually 40W even sound like 100% CPU load on M1 Pro.

Seems to be happening on Windows too

QuoteHigh Cpu usage when i turn my video on!
I am using meet for 2 years but from 2-3 months i am facing high cpu usage almost 100% when i turn my camera on. Camera: Logitech C270, 720p , Windows 11.

Have you tried any fixes from the Internet?

Quoteturn visual effects OFF.
The blur background was increasing CPU from 8% to 100%

QuoteSettings > Video > Adjust Video Lighting
Disable that, spike drops. Sad to lose that much performance for such a small feature.

I can't speak about Zoom from personal experience as I'm only using it very occasionally. But for meet it is definitely true and it seems to affect others as well.

I'm not using Rosetta, didn't notice the fans. I'll control CPU/GPU usage in activity Monitor next time.

I've had this Mac for a year and a few months now and I was disappointed by battery life with video conferencing right from the start.

Also I asked some team members on Mac to pay attention during next meetings.

Let's see... Would be glad to be wrong here.

I'm not using effects, but will try the lightning thing as well, thanks!

Could be that it happens under Windows as well, but I don't notice it to that extent on my Windows machine.

On Windows it also wouldn't affect me that much, as I'm not able to get over full working day anyways. I had hope with the Mac though.

Quote from: Plum on November 28, 2023, 14:30:43Could be that it happens under Windows as well, but I don't notice it to that extent on my Windows machine.

Check the CPU usage when you will experience it next time.

None of you have or will ever have access to the source code of large, truly valuable neural network models. Access to their API is always paid.

A request to a really large model is extremely energy-intensive with modern available technologies. This is the second factor that only leads to paid access.

No household PC is capable of executing these models, even if the source code were stolen - their resources are simply not enough. And it won't be able to in the next 15 years for sure.

Therefore, the light version of "AI" in your pocket will not be earlier than 2050, and even then this is rather an optimistic forecast. Most likely no earlier than 2070. Provided that civilization continues to develop and does not collapse during this time to a more primitive one.

@NikoB go away clown, we already understood you have no idea about LLMs

CharBot A, turn off. This forum for people.

Quote from: A on November 27, 2023, 11:59:35So of you cherry pick benchmarks you can make either of these two look bad or very bad. Reality is they are roughly on par with Apple Silicon being more of a LAPTOP and x86 being a PORTABLE DESKTOP, like that $4300 "laptop" the other guy advertised me yesterday, with 4hr web surfing battery life.

This line from stupid chatbot A is especially funny.

A $1200 laptop with a 7945HX+4060 is significantly faster than the $8,000 top-end Mac 2023. And that's it. This is a sentence. =)

Quote from: NikoB on November 28, 2023, 20:05:59CharBot A, turn off. This forum for people.

Exactly, clowns like you are not welcome.

Quote from: NikoB on November 28, 2023, 17:34:09A request to a really large model is extremely energy-intensive with modern available technologies.

Do your homework before posting, ChatGPT requests are 1-10 Watts. Or you thought whole server rack is working on your requests? ))) At least do some googling.

Quote from: NikoB on November 28, 2023, 17:34:09No household PC is capable of executing these models, even if the source code were stolen - their resources are simply not enough. And it won't be able to in the next 15 years for sure.

Go to r/localllama subreddit, tell them, lol.

Quote from: NikoB on November 28, 2023, 20:10:07

Quote from: A on November 27, 2023, 11:59:35So of you cherry pick benchmarks you can make either of these two look bad or very bad. Reality is they are roughly on par with Apple Silicon being more of a LAPTOP and x86 being a PORTABLE DESKTOP, like that $4300 "laptop" the other guy advertised me yesterday, with 4hr web surfing battery life.

Quote from: NikoB on November 28, 2023, 20:10:07A $1200 laptop with a 7945HX+4060 is significantly faster than the $8,000 top-end Mac 2023. And that's it. This is a sentence. =)

Lol, not even going to ask where did you get $4300 laptop for $1200 and what is "$8000 top-end Mac 2023".

Quote from: A on November 28, 2023, 20:15:59Lol, not even going to ask where did you get $4300 laptop for $1200 and what is "$8000 top-end Mac 2023".

Dude, they are freely available in a bunch of stores from China.

Can you imagine how upset Apple fans burning here? They spend a lot of money on the top 2023 model, and end up with a weak 2022 computer, instead of a powerful x86 2023 with AMD+NVidia literally for pennies compared to Apple prices...

Quote from: NikoB on November 28, 2023, 17:34:09No household PC is capable of executing these models

180B LLM (10B parameters more than GPT3) runs on
any PC with 2xA100 80GB (need 2 because of VRAM)
=OR=
Apple Silicon Mac with 192Gb RAM

youtube.com/watch?v=Zm1YodWOgyU

You are now 4x smarter after reading this message, NikoB.

Quote from: NikoB on November 28, 2023, 20:27:48They spend a lot of money on the top 2023 model, and end up with a weak 2022 computer, instead of a powerful x86 2023 with AMD+NVidia literally for pennies compared to Apple prices...

I'm not even gonna discuss this sh*t you made up (from $1200 laptop beating anything to 'China iz chep') because it's obviously not true and you'll end up just butthurting and insulting me. Do your own homework.

Once again for the stupid - really valuable neural network models are all closed and you will never get them in the public domain. Really powerful ones (that is, useful models at the expert level) require HBM memory of tens of terabytes, at a minimum. Not to mention the disk space to download them.

Tell the grandmothers on the benches how you twirl heavy models on the poppies. This only causes homeric laughter and nothing more.

Quote from: A on November 28, 2023, 20:31:27I'm not even gonna discuss this sh*t you made up (from $1200 laptop beating anything to 'China

You make me laugh, pathetic bot, this is L5Pro from Lenovo. Can you imagine what a shame it is for Apple that their top-end $9000 Mac is inferior in processor speed to a $1200 сhinese laptop? =)

Quote from: NikoB on November 28, 2023, 21:05:50really valuable neural network models

Luckily we have real LLM benchmarks and most of them say Falcon-180B is between GPT3.5 and GPT4. You are just dumb and have no idea, admit it already. Just google 'falcon-180b', clown.

Quote from: NikoB on November 28, 2023, 21:05:50closed and you will never get them in the public

Open-source community always has models that are on par with prev generation of commercial models or sometimes even better, e.g. Stable Diffusion is better than paid Midjourney.

Quote from: NikoB on November 28, 2023, 21:05:50Not to mention the disk space to download them.

Lol, so you didn't even google, right? Actually it;s about the level of IT company janitor to think model carries ober whole training set along. I will surprise you, but falcon-180B is around 300Gb or even less quantized. Rule of thumb is model file size = model VRAM requirements, give or take.

Quote from: NikoB on November 28, 2023, 21:05:50L5Pro from Lenovo

Slower CPU, on par GPU, worse efficiency, worse battery life. We done or you'll go on and will keep posting your bs "no its not" "no its not"?

Quote from: A on November 28, 2023, 21:15:38Open-source community always has models that are on par with prev generation of commercial models or sometimes even better, e.g. Stable Diffusion is better than paid Midjourney.

Keep believing it, stupid little boy. Once you really grow up, you learn that the world is a little different...

Quote from: A on November 28, 2023, 21:15:38I will surprise you, but falcon-180B is around 300Gb or even less quantized.

Again funny to tears. Again the blind faith that a little boy can have everything...

Quote from: A on November 28, 2023, 21:15:38Slower CPU, on par GPU

Maybe you should still see your family doctor? Cinebench R15 - 5200-5400 (7945HX) vs M3 Max 3200-3300 в Turbo mode. 1200$ vs 9000$...

Quote from: NikoB on November 28, 2023, 21:36:57Keep believing it, stupid little boy. Once you really grow up, you learn that the world is a little different...

There's no need to 'believe', it's widely acclaimed lol

Quote from: NikoB on November 28, 2023, 21:36:57Again funny to tears. Again the blind faith that a little boy can have everything...

You can literally download it yourself at Huggingface.com and see the file size with your own eyes )))))

Quote from: NikoB on November 28, 2023, 21:36:57Maybe you should still see your family doctor? Cinebench R15 - 5200-5400 (7945HX) vs M3 Max 3200-3300 в Turbo mode. 1200$ vs 9000$...

Cinebench is built on Intel library Embree with a decade of hand optimization for x86. Plus it's testing a task that never happens in real world, no one renders on CPU in Redshift. See Geekbench + Wildlife Extreme gaming tests, don't forget to plug your x86 laptop out and test too.

Geekbench
7945HX 2696/15248 - and less when plugged off
M3 Max 3078/21127 - same when plugged off

Wildlife Extreme
4060 - 19185 - and less when plugged off
M3 Max - 31268

Display is night and day, battery life night and day, efficiency night and day. And m3Max is $3500, not $8000. Don't skip your pills, guy with $4300 laptop was at least better on GPU.

Quote from: NikoB on November 28, 2023, 21:36:57в Turbo mode.

Lol, that 'B' confirms my prior assumption you are russian. Why am I not surprised.

@A Not only Russians are using those letters.

As to why you are not surprised? Probably because you are trying to confirm your own biases... Hard to surprise yourself.

Quote from: Plum on November 29, 2023, 02:01:39As to why you are not surprised?

I'm not surprised because it's quite obvious his messages are machine translated and I've suspected them having some badly translated russian figures of speech. Untranslated word simply confirmed my assumption. Aaand this means he never really understood a single review he writes about. And explains why he never watches videos in english. And explains why he barely ever understands responses to him and just jumps to 1-2 line insults every time. And explains why he is always using higher prices.

And as a bonus his self-proclaimed multi-year IT career is a lie of course, because one can't be in IT and skip on english.

@A

QuoteI've suspected them having some badly translated russian figures of speech.

which ones for example?

Quote from: Plum on November 29, 2023, 09:03:55which ones for example?

Quote from: NikoB on November 28, 2023, 21:05:50Tell the grandmothers on the benches

And many more, not going to spend my time digging through messages of this clown.

Quote from: NikoB on November 28, 2023, 20:10:07A $1200 laptop with a 7945HX+4060 is significantly faster than the $8,000 top-end Mac 2023. And that's it. This is a sentence. =)

Quote from: NikoB on November 28, 2023, 21:05:50You make me laugh, pathetic bot, this is L5Pro from Lenovo.

True, the 7945HX is certainly much faster than the M3 Max 16C (https://www.cpubenchmark.net/compare/5232vs5748/AMD-Ryzen-9-7945HX-vs-Apple-M3-Max-16-Core), but there is one problem though - that L5 Pro is not available to buy anywhere (including the US) and a cheapest 7945HX is starting at €1,799 (https://www.amazon.de/s?k=7945hx&i=computers&rh=n%3A427957031&s=price-asc-rank&dc&language=en&ds=v1%3AliAFL15EK94fewp0vmjbMsaVFGlYcQz9b0iRMtdqb%2Bs&crid=2ZAG0IRR2MQV7&qid=1701249389&rnid=1703609031&sprefix=7945hx%2Caps%2C101&ref=sr_st_price-asc-rank). Just "a bit" over your $1,200.

No clue where do you even find such prices because they are not on Amazon, not on eBay and definitely not even on Lenovo's website where even 7645HX is $58.55 above your price (https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/p/laptops/legion-laptops/legion-pro-series/legion-pro-5-gen-8-(16-inch-amd)/82wmcto1wwus1) (and that's without taxes).

I mean yeah, Lenovo is going to offer their top spec'd L5P AMD model (4060 and 4070 are the possible pairings) (https://psref.lenovo.com/Product/Legion/Legion_Pro_5_16ARX8?MT=82wm) for cheaper than they sell their LOQ line, yep - all legit there. Not. It's like Mercedes pricing their C class below their A class.

Quote from: Neenyah on November 29, 2023, 10:26:13True, the 7945HX is certainly much faster than the M3 Max 16C[/url],

False
browser.geekbench.com/v6/cpu/compare/3766635?baseline=3764696

Quote from: A on November 29, 2023, 10:33:33

Quote from: Neenyah on November 29, 2023, 10:26:13True, the 7945HX is certainly much faster than the M3 Max 16C[/url],

False
browser.geekbench.com/v6/cpu/compare/3766635?baseline=3764696

Passmark is a complete CPU benchmark, Geekbench is great but very specific and it runs very short so many devices can't even hit their thermal limits there. To put it into car terms - Geekbench measures only top speed, Passmark will measure lap times. So you have a hypercar capable to go 420 kph (Geekbench) but a Formula 1 car with its 350-360 kph top speed will do faster lap times (Passmark). M3 Max 16C is certainly a speedy demon in single thread loads, there is no argues about that tho.

-

Edit: Btw, benchmarks are just meaningless numbers in the end. You can't drive a submarine on the road, you can't drive a car underwater. If one's purpose is not met then no benchmark score is going to help there. Buy hardware accordingly to your needs, do not buy hardware after looking at silly numbers in benchmarks and then try to find its purpose. In PC terms - if you need macOS you go with Apple, obviously. If you need Windows you don't go with Apple, obviously again. Neither OS is right or wrong.

Quote from: Neenyah on November 29, 2023, 11:00:07Passmark is a complete CPU benchmark

No. Passmark is a sh*tmark. Either you will have to believe that 'stupid Apple' put in M3 Max 2x weaker integer modules but 5% faster floating point modules than 7945HX or test was optimized for x86 SIMD instructions to run simultaneously 2 or 4 integers. Choose yourself.

Kinda also sus CPU allegedly 2x slower at integer math is 2x faster at prime numbers and physics )

Quote from: Neenyah on November 29, 2023, 11:00:07Geekbench is great but very specific

False. Geekbench runs a wide range of real CPU workloads, including a mix of Cinebench/Blender benchmark as "Ray tracer", where 7945HX wins just like in real Cinebench/Blender. So can't say Geekbench is biased, right?
geekbench.com/doc/geekbench6-cpu-workloads.pdf

After they've removed widely criticized workloads (including critics by Linus Torvalds himself) and updated the rest, today Geekbench is by far the most objective illustration of hardware peak performance.

Quote from: Neenyah on November 29, 2023, 11:00:07it runs very short so many devices can't even hit their thermal limits there

Because it's not about thermal limits, but about hardware performance. M3 Max doesn't hit them anyway, it's a 115W laptop.

CPUMark was caught before on manipulating results using SIMD instructions unavailable on other platforms too, around 2020, that time they did it in favor of Intel against your lovely AMD:
guru3d.com/data/publish/205/b8a5fd4fff06dbbc4be758026d311f9759a035/35512_untitled-1.png

They simply added AVX512 optimizations to everything, and, as AMD didn't have that instruction subset, they were immediately pushed out of top charts.

Basically the same situation with the same sh*tmark again.

Aaaand coming from Linus Torvalds, creator of Linux:

QuoteI hope AVX512 dies a painful death, and that Intel starts fixing real problems instead of trying to create magic instructions to then create benchmarks that they can look good on.
...
Because absolutely nobody cares outside of benchmarks.

So only relevant benchmarks are those where Apple wins but those where they lose, such as Cinebench R23, are invalid and worthless? 🤔 Even here on Notebookcheck's comparison across multiple different benchmarks (https://www.notebookcheck.net/Apple-M3-Max-16-Core-vs-R9-7945HX_15113_14936.247596.0.html) it's the 7945HX that wins again.

Because it's interesting how Geekbench was also "Shitbench" prior to version 6 considering that M1 and M2 weren't topping any charts in Geekbench 5 and now suddenly hop - everyone's workflow is running nothing but Geekbench 24/7, hm? What if you need 3D modelling in Cinema 4D because that's what you do for a living? Would you value Geekbench 6 or Cinebench R23/2024 as more relevant for your usage?


Actually here is one good and objective comment from Reddit, regarding Geekbench (https://www.reddit.com/r/hardware/comments/175di7w/comment/k4ewpgc/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button):

QuoteGeekbench is a benchmark that is testing something that Apple's chips happen to be particularly good at. It's not "bias", it's just... what the test is testing. Geekbench tests short, bursty workloads that are common for regular consumer use of their devices. Apple knows their target audience very well, and knows that targeting that kind of workload is what is going to give their users the best experience. So their stuff is obviously going to be designed to excel at consumer tasks. Which Geekbench results verify. That's not to say that they're only good at one specific test/benchmark, just that it's a key performance area for their designers. Of course they're going to be good at it.

As far as whether geekbench is 'biased' or not, consider this analogy. If you are comparing a dragster to a semi truck, A 0-60mph acceleration test isn't inherently biased towards presenting the dragster as a "better" vehicle. Likewise, a towing capacity test isn't "biased" as showing the semi truck as better. They're just data points. Being better in one doesn't necessarily mean the vehicle is better overall. And if I, the purchaser, really just need a minivan to drag around 4 kids to soccer practice, then both vehicles are poor choices and neither test tells me anything definitive towards my decision.

But how do you design a "performance as a minivan" test objectively? Well... you can't. You can test fuel efficiency, cargo space, passenger space, horsepower, acceleration, cost, safety, and a slew of other considerations individually and provide hard measurements of them. And then compile and weight those results into some kind of "overall" score. But there is no objectively correct weighing of those factors, because not everybody needs or wants the same balance. Weighted "performance as a minivan" results are pretty irrelevant if what I actually do need is a semi truck, or a dragster.

There is no one universal benchmark of performance. There are many kinds of tasks and individual tests that need to be weighed based on use-case. That weighing and balancing of different scores is where nuance (and thus, necessary bias) comes in.

In the end, as I said before:

Quote from: Neenyah on November 29, 2023, 11:00:07Edit: Btw, benchmarks are just meaningless numbers in the end. You can't drive a submarine on the road, you can't drive a car underwater. If one's purpose is not met then no benchmark score is going to help there. Buy hardware accordingly to your needs, do not buy hardware after looking at silly numbers in benchmarks and then try to find its purpose. In PC terms - if you need macOS you go with Apple, obviously. If you need Windows you don't go with Apple, obviously again. Neither OS is right or wrong.

...AKA different horses for different courses.

-

Edit: Not really sure what does this mean:

Quote from: A on November 29, 2023, 11:46:53favor of Intel against your lovely AMD

Which is why I said that benchmarks, including those 7945HX vs M3 Max 16C, are just meaningless numbers and nothing else. In many benchmarks AMD is wiping the floor with Intel yet I use Intel for my work (to earn living) because despite lower benchmark numbers it is considerably faster for the same money in the same type of work (I do animaton/motion graphics, 3D, video editing and graphic design).  That PC is strictly for work so it's in my workplace. At home for gaming I have a nice AMD build and that AMD, despite weaker benchmark numbers (including Geekbench) is faster in Counter Strike 2 than my i9 14900KF build in the office. I don't play other games (semi)competitively nor I earn any money from them so I don't care about them in terms of performance, only CS2. I also have an inexpensive Beelink mini-PC and my trusted ThinkPad X1 Carbon with 1.1 kg of "weight" to carry it on the go. I don't have "my lovely" anything in tech except my wallet where I value performance per $ in my everyday usage; I couldn't care less if the name is AMD, Intel or Apple, I care about getting the most out for my money and I won't take one isolated benchmark as a determining factor to make my purchase-decision.

Quote from: A on November 29, 2023, 07:39:47And as a bonus his self-proclaimed multi-year IT career is a lie of course, because one can't be in IT and skip on english.

Most Americans are so stupid that you are a clown, only confirming this honorary title.

Quote from: Neenyah on November 29, 2023, 10:26:13True, the 7945HX is certainly much faster than the M3 Max 16C (http://www.cpubenchmark.net/compare/5232vs5748/AMD-Ryzen-9-7945HX-vs-Apple-M3-Max-16-Core), but there is one problem though - that L5 Pro is not available to buy anywhere (including the US) and a cheapest 7945HX is starting at €1,799 (http://www.notebookchat.com/www.amazon.de/s?k=7945hx&i=computers&rh=n%3A427957031&s=price-asc-rank&dc&language=en&ds=v1%3AliAFL15EK94fewp0vmjbMsaVFGlYcQz9b0iRMtdqb%2Bs&crid=2ZAG0IRR2MQV7&qid=1701249389&rnid=1703609031&sprefix=7945hx%2Caps%2C101&ref=sr_st_price-asc-rank). Just "a bit" over your $1,200.

Right now I can order L5Pro 7945HX+4060 from many sellers from China for $1200-1300, with free delivery within 2 weeks maximum.

Prices in China for Chinese Lenovo models can be easily checked even by a child.

You can, of course, expect manna from heaven in the EU and the USA, but whoever needs it (they suited them according to their characteristics) bought them a long time ago.

Also, yes, a top-end Apple laptop for $9,000 completely drains a $1,200 laptop in terms of processor performance from the power supply, which was originally intended, but clown "A" keeps talking nonsense about running on battery power, which in such machines is essentially useless to anyone . Delivering 64GB of memory will cost less than $250, i.e. the price, taking into account the installation of 64GB, as in the M3 Max configuration from the reviews here, will be no more than $1500. If desired, it's easy to add 2 SSDs of 4TB each for $220-250. Total sum of 7945HX+4060+64GB/8TB ~ $2000 vs Mac 16 Pro with M3 Max 8000-9000$.

This is a complete failure for Apple's fans. The Chinese just laugh at them.

Quote from: NikoB on November 29, 2023, 13:44:21Right now I can order L5Pro 7945HX+4060 from many sellers from China for $1200-1300, with free delivery within 2 weeks maximum.

Prices in China for Chinese Lenovo models can be easily checked even by a child.

Mmm, "prices in China for Chinese Lenovo models" are being listed in USD. In China. Sure.
Btw, you live in Somalia or something similar where import taxes are not a thing? I mean you can literally be in China and order something from the US or the EU - and you will pay hefty imports. So...

-

Edit:

I went to check your claims (https://item.lenovo.com.cn/product/1032322.html), NikoB, and, surprise, surprise, you are lying again.

The mentioned model is ¥10148 and that is $1,427.06, not $1,200 as you claim and that's the cheapest Lenovo with 7945HX altogether. Screenshot 😀😀 (https://imgur.com/4yZGV11)

Quote from: Neenyah on November 29, 2023, 13:06:32Because it's interesting how Geekbench was also "Shitbench" prior to version 6 considering that M1 and M2

Are you arguing with Linus Torvalds? ) He was criticizing Geekbench 5.5 for having en encryption test and basing benchmark around it specifically. x86 chips simply added hw acceleration of AES to cheat in it. ) Also 5.5 was bit outdated and too small of a load for modern PCs (compilation test was only 1024 lines of code, sic). So it was simply updated to remove x86 cheats, made workloads more lifelike and longer, etc.

I am always objective on hardware cheats, much like we yesterday discussed Apple cheating in Video playback test by hardware codecs implementation. Your 4K@60 HDR Costa Rica video uses 0.9W package power on BASE ENTRY M1 MBA to play.

Quote from: Neenyah on November 29, 2023, 13:06:32So only relevant benchmarks are those where Apple wins but those where they lose, such as Cinebench R23, are invalid and worthless?

Again, Cinebench benchmark is also part of Geekbench testing and Ryzen wins there:
"Ray Tracer
This workload renders the Blender BMW scene using a custom ray tracer built with the Intel
Embree ray tracing library."
That's EXACTLY what Cinebench does, with the same Intel Embree library, and your Ryzen wins in it no questions asked.

Quote from: Neenyah on November 29, 2023, 13:06:32Geekbench is a benchmark that is testing something that Apple's chips happen to be particularly good at

There's a TON of chips having higher scores than Apple. 7945HX is just worse. 7950X is better, shall we say 'Geekbench is a benchmark that is testing something that 7950X happen to be particularly good at' now? ) It's not serious, their test methodology is known and widely accepted.

Quote from: Neenyah on November 29, 2023, 13:06:32Which is why I said that benchmarks, including those 7945HX vs M3 Max 16C, are just meaningless numbers and nothing else.

Geekbench uses real workloads from everyday use.
geekbench.com/doc/geekbench6-cpu-workloads.pdf

Quote from: Neenyah on November 29, 2023, 13:06:32performance per $

I'm more into 'comfort for $' in 2023.

Quote from: NikoB on November 29, 2023, 13:44:21Total sum of 7945HX+4060+64GB/8TB ~ $2000 vs Mac 16 Pro with M3 Max 8000-9000$.

And you'll just get a laptop that is worse in everything.

Will you show us this price already somewhere or it's your usual bs and it will be more expensive and you'll have to pay how much, +30%? +50%? When you import it.

Quote from: NikoB on November 29, 2023, 13:44:21Most Americans are so stupid that you are a clown, only confirming this honorary title.

Despite you are a local clown, i know you are learning something from my posts (you will never admit of course) and becoming smarter. I'm satisfied.

Btw what are you even doing here if you have to machine translate back and forth? Did they kick you out of all russian tech forums and you've found an unmoderated place? )) Such a great loss for russian tech community (no).

Quote from: Neenyah on November 29, 2023, 13:53:06Mmm, "prices in China for Chinese Lenovo models" are being listed in USD. In China

Complete nonsense, they are always in yuan.

I don't even need to convert into yuan, because in my local marketplace with local guarantees, the same models from China are sold for $1200-1300, with confirmed certificates of originality of the products. The difference with the local marketplace and Chinese chain stores is that there you can clearly select the some configurations from the factory directly from Lenovo. Immediately choosing 64GB of RAM. Which, of course, and as always, is extremely unprofitable, neither in price nor in terms of warranty. It's easier to buy 64GB, throw out 16GB from the factory (which no one will buy at a flea market anyway and there's simply nowhere to put it) and install it yourself. At the same time, the local warranty for the modules will be 10 years, and not 1 year, as part of the laptop. It's the same with SSDs. It's more profitable to take the minimum config 16/512-1024 from China and rearrange the memory and SSD yourself. Everyone who buys does exactly this, everyone who takes it for business. And it is several times cheaper than any workstation.

Naturally, the MacBook 16 Pro with M3 Max is lighter, more autonomous and faster on battery power, and it has a milled metal body. It is, of course, much more reliable - after all, its total consumption is less than 125W, and the power components and motherboard are much cheaper in L5Pro.

But overall, this is a complete failure for Apple in terms of choosing a universal laptop for the home or office.

For the price of one Macbook 16 Pro with M3 Max, you can easily get 4xL5Pro in the 7945HX+4060+64GB/8TB configuration each.

Apple fans' asses are burning with blue flames...

Apple equipment has always had a markup of 300%, minimum. Well, let Apple fans continue to sponsor Apple developments. Everyone is just glad that at least part of the money is not going to golden toilets and yachts with football clubs (www.bnnbloomberg.ca/adelson-family-to-buy-sports-team-with-2-billion-share-sale-1.2004572) .

Quote from: NikoB on November 29, 2023, 14:19:06Naturally, the MacBook 16 Pro with M3 Max is lighter, more autonomous and faster on battery power, and it has a milled metal body. It is, of course, much more reliable - after all, its total consumption is less than 125W, and the power components and motherboard are much cheaper in L5Pro.

yeah yeah and MBP is faster, and has a better screen, by a mile.

Quote from: NikoB on November 29, 2023, 14:19:06For the price of one Macbook 16 Pro with M3 Max, you can easily get 4xL5Pro in the 7945HX+4060+64GB/8TB configuration each.

So you need four laptops or just one that is better in every way? )

Quote from: NikoB on November 29, 2023, 14:19:06Apple fans' asses are burning with blue flames...

Nah, guy with $4300 laptop was WAY more reasonable than you, at least GPU there was mopping the floor with mac.

Well, will you finally show us where we can buy it for $1200? Link? Anything? Please don't forget the import fee.

Quote from: NikoB on November 29, 2023, 14:19:06with local guarantees

A nice way to say 'no warranty'.

Quote from: Neenyah on November 29, 2023, 13:06:32prior to version 6 considering that M1 and M2 weren't topping any charts in Geekbench 5

Yeah, forgot to note, it's not even the case here.
7945HX is slower on both geekbench 5 and 6.

Quote from: Neenyah on November 29, 2023, 13:06:32such as Cinebench R23, are invalid

They are OFFICIALLY CONFIRMED invalid, because optimizations for ARM started only in Cinebench 2024:

QuoteCinebench 2024 is designed to accommodate a broad range of hardware configurations - while it seamlessly supports x86/64 architecture (Intel/AMD) on Windows and macOS, it also extends its reach to Apple Silicon on macOS and Arm64 CPUs on Windows, ensuring compatibility with the latest advancements in hardware technology.

And scores are also in

Single-core
7945HX - 114
M3 Max 16C40G - 141

Multi-core
7945HX - 1669
M3 Max 16C40G - 1607

You noticed how 2x performance gap suddenly disappeared? Stay tuned for further optimizations - I think it's just a start.

The PROOF from China official site of Lenovo:
mitem.lenovo.com.cn/product/1030510.html
~1260$
And that config much faster(from PSU) then M3 Max Macbook 16 Pro 2023 ...=)

Promises

Quote from: NikoB on November 29, 2023, 14:19:067945HX+4060+64GB/8TB

Quote from: NikoB on November 29, 2023, 14:19:06for $1200-1300

Now let's see the bullsh*t we got

Quote from: NikoB on November 29, 2023, 19:14:09The PROOF from China official site of Lenovo:
mitem.lenovo.com.cn/product/1030510.html
~1260$
And that config much faster(from PSU) then M3 Max Macbook 16 Pro 2023 ...=)

a) Local Chinese shop without international delivery
b) 16Gb RAM lol, poor NikoB really hoped no one will notice
b) You've conveniently 'forgot' about import fees 30-50% - or have to pay for trip to China
c) Promises of 'local warranty' were bs of course
d) Price IMMEDIATELY grows to $1420 if you pick a 32Gb RAM config, and there's no 64Gb config lol
So in the end with all the fees this laptop will cost around $2K or more.

Why have you even bothered to bring this sh*t here if you were warned THREE TIMES we will check it at least for import tax. What a loser lol.

Quote from: NikoB on November 29, 2023, 19:17:41And that config much faster(from PSU) then M3 Max Macbook 16 Pro 2023...=)

Only in your schizophrenic reality.

Hi! What kind of benchmark tool did you use in the gaming youtube video? Looks like MSI afterburner but as far as i know MSI Afterburner is not available for Mac OS?
Thanks
Axel

Quote from: A on November 29, 2023, 19:59:44a) Local Chinese shop without international delivery
b) 16Gb RAM lol, poor NikoB really hoped no one will notice
b) You've conveniently 'forgot' about import fees 30-50% - or have to pay for trip to China
c) Promises of 'local warranty' were bs of course
d) Price IMMEDIATELY grows to $1420 if you pick a 32Gb RAM config, and there's no 64Gb config lol
So in the end with all the fees this laptop will cost around $2K or more.

Why have you even bothered to bring this sh*t here if you were warned THREE TIMES we will check it at least for import tax. What a loser lol.

Our dear clown A, I can buy it, this particular config in the local marketplace with a 1-year warranty for $1300 including shipping costs.

DDR5 2x32GB 5600 (it will easily work like a 5200) costs $210 at my local store with a 10 year warranty.

SSD drives for every taste with a 5-year warranty. So it all depends on your desires - 2-4GB without problems up to $300.

Yes, unfortunately, you can't install 128-256GB on Zen4, only on Zen4 Phoenix, but I think this is not a super problem, considering that your beautiful M3 Max with 128GB on board costs more than $9,000.

1300+210+450-500$ (2x4Tb SSD with 5 year warranty) - 2000$,

So for $9000 you can easily buy fully packaged 4 pieces of L5Pro with 7945HX+4060+64GB/8TB.

Q.E.D.

Turn off the bot and don't embarrass yourself anymore. If you were hoping to get money from Apple, then there will be no bonus for November.

Quote from: NikoB on November 29, 2023, 21:06:28So it all depends on your desires - 2-4GB without problems up to $300.

Wait-wait, you've promised 8Gb and it has to be a good one. )) Again thought no one will notice?

Quote from: NikoB on November 29, 2023, 21:06:281300+210+450-500$ (2x4Tb SSD with 5 year warranty) - 2000$,

Exactly, clown, just as I said lol:

Quote from: A on November 29, 2023, 19:59:44So in the end with all the fees this laptop will cost around $2K or more.

Quote from: NikoB on November 29, 2023, 21:06:28So for $9000 you can easily buy fully packaged 4 pieces of L5Pro with 7945HX+4060+64GB/8TB.

Also M3 Max 64/8 is just $6400. Even "$9000" is a lie, clown.
So it's not news you can get more laptops that are slower and worse overall in every single aspect.

So many messages just to see how you sh*t your pants while constantly trying to lower your laptop price and raise price on MBP.

I just see how "A"'s a** is burning. I can just see how he emits rays of hatred (or diarrhea) from the way he shamefully flushed himself into the toilet. =)))

Quote from: NikoB on November 29, 2023, 21:47:24I just see how "A"'s a** is burning. I can just see how he emits rays of hatred (or diarrhea) from the way he shamefully flushed himself into the toilet. =)))

^ reaction of a clown when he happily thinks he got away with lying he can get a $1900 laptop for $1300 in russia.

Yeah right, keep on.

But you actually can put that Lenovo out against M3Pro and be roughly on par in CPU/GPU, with a slight win for Lenovo.

Geekbench 6.2 same result
In Cinebench 2024 M3Pro loses.
Wildlife Extreme GPU same result
Geekbench 6.2 GPU compute M3Pro slightly loses, you can directly compare Metal and CUDA scores (but it's 8Gb VRAM vs 24Gb VRAM, so I'd give a BIG win to M3Pro here - no point in having more compute if it just doesn't fit in VRAM)

Of course other than CPU/GPU Lenovo will lose in screen, build, power consumption, support - like, in everything else - by a mile.

If you ignore NikoBipolar's lies about Lenovo price, it will be $2000 vs $3100 for 32/1 config.

consumertechwarehouse @ Youtube compares Blender on the GPU:

~5250 points, ROG G14 4080 Laptop 7940HS

~270 points, Macbook M3 Pro 18 cores

Nvidia is some 19.4 times faster than Apple.

This shows why NBC does not even dare to compare Blender on the GPU directly.

Quote from: RobertJasiek on December 04, 2023, 12:01:19Blender on the GPU

Idk, probably he hadn't used latest Blender 4.1 (or 4.0.1, i don't remember), where support for M3 raytracing was added.

There are official scores of their own benchmark on Blender site and it's 8000+ 4090 laptop and 1314 M2 Pro.

In real test though, just so you understand how that HUGE gap is scaled to real world
youtube.com/watch?v=Teb4HlsW2PI
4080 (scores 6000) takes 45 seconds to render a scene and M3 Pro (scores 1300) takes 57 seconds.
4090 (scores 8000) will be faster.

And remember, requiring THIS to beat 30W GPU might be considered a win for Apple Silicon by some ))

Also Tomb Raider isn't a native ARM game so make your own decision if you can trust that reviewer, 2 misses out of 2.

P.S. I've messed up, it's 4070 (4000 points blender test). The point of the message still stays the same though.

In 3D games, ray tracing is a gimmick but what is its function in Blender?

Quote from: RobertJasiek on December 04, 2023, 12:34:07In 3D games, ray tracing is a gimmick but what is its function in Blender?

It's a thing both for games and raytracing renderers like Blender or Redshift or 3DStudio.

Sure, but I want to know if these renderers always use raytracing if computation is complex or is raytracing just one possible feature of them?

Quote from: RobertJasiek on December 04, 2023, 13:09:13Sure, but I want to know if these renderers always use raytracing if computation is complex or is raytracing just one possible feature of them?

They don't use anything except ray tracing when rendering scenes (e.g. with Blender's Cycles renderer) at all.

Ray tracing on GPU = hardware implementation of ray tracing algorithms.

@A:

I don't know much about LLM's but am curious on the subject and interested in hearing your thoughts/comments on a few questions of mine regarding this topic:

1) What is more important to the end user, inference or training [*and will the answer to this change in future?]? By end user, I mean an amateur trying into this stuff. Such as AI generated imagery using stable diffusion/Automatic1111/openjourney (getting models from hugging face) Or running chatbots like ChatGPT to help get work done quicker on your machine locally for free (since most locked behind cloud services are too annoying as they force you to signup / register, disclose phone numbers, often times with feature limited api access per request and paywalls)

Don't know if it's possible yet to run such LLM locally or the code isn't fully open sourced yet? Even if it were, would you need thousands of H100's or something to run such models? Don't know what the "TOP" requirements  of such activities would require.

2) Any thoughts on how well a device such as the Switch 2 would be for running LLM locally? Current rumors state that it'll be coming (or atleast announced) March 2024, come with 12 gb vram. Ofcourse it'll be locked down running Nintendo's custom proprietary OS but looking at Nintendo's previous console history - almost every single of the devices were hacked/jailbroken shortly after release, so I expect someone to be running full fledged windows/linux with next gen switch as well. I don't expect it to be anywhere to perform anywhere close to massive M3 Max chip with 64gb vram but as an entry level device, possibly 1/3rd the price of MBA/base MBP, it seems enticing.

3) You mentioned earlier "70B" being ideal for current open source models, do you think memory requirements for LLM's will reduce in future (due to more efficient algorithms) or increase, due to just being able to handle more parameters gives better or more detailed/accurate results? You also mentioned using coding LLVMs and general chat ones, which ones or models do you use exactly? Would be nice if you could further elaborate on what exactly stuff like "7B", "13B", "15B", "33B", "70B", "120B", "130B", "180B" etc ... tokens per second - what it means in models, why it matters? You mentioned about it being about the math but why, what exactly about the math, makes it better?

Just some comments in general on this thread:

It's an interesting case / argument to make, that x86 mobile rig's lack the necessary Vram capacity to run modern full scale LLM locally but I also feel it is kind a largely irrelevant because the most people do not buy $4300+ 64GB ram M-silicon Max MBP's. The kind of demographic that do have access to that kind of hardware, usually are given to them free by their jobs/workplaces and most probably work at ML companies to begin with where they also give them free access to a cloud server with several thousand H100's or a lab where there are several RTX 3090 NVlinked together on a rack that they can eGPU with or something.

The points about x86 efficiency (or lack of), isn't so interesting to me because everyone has known x86 to be terrible for power/wattage for last 10 years (and arm being vastly superior in this aspect isn't apple specific advantage), so nothing new. Nonetheless it is impressive what apple has been able to achieve in mobile factor and being first to market for mainstream arm pc's.

Another thing to note is a lot of these AI/ML libraries (Pytorch, Tensorflow, etc) and tutorials almost all of them are tested or run on Nvidia h/w and accelerated via their own CUDA frameworks. I am not too sure how much this matters since it is all mostly open source and should be vendor agnostic with regards to NPU h/w. But it's nice to know when everything is Nvidia's ecosystem and tested for that ecosystem everything just works (less bugs/buggy?). You're actually the first person, A, I've heard really pushing for the idea of running LLM's locally on MBP's but it does make logical sense because of the large pool of UMA / efficiency and MBP's are already super popular in Big Tech US firms.

The ordinary enduser need inference. Training is for researchers or seekers of specialised variants offered by none.

Forget LLMs on gadgets. LLM needs proper hardware.

Likely, storage reqirements for inference will drop with improved networks for constant object sizes. One can, however, always blow up storage demand by increasing objects or quality. According to the user A, LLMs need much VRAM or unified memory but I do not know if improved / altered LLM nets might work mostly on RAM, too.

Again, x64 with Nvidia GPUs is not inefficient for AI but quite contrariy is often very efficient. Large LLM with too large VRAM needs are the exception.

Quote from: Chakwal on December 14, 2023, 12:29:09What is more important to the end user, inference or training

Inference

Quote from: Chakwal on December 14, 2023, 12:29:09Don't know if it's possible yet to run such LLM locally or the code isn't fully open sourced yet? Even if it were, would you need thousands of H100's or something to run such models?

OpenJourney is a Stable Diffusion model (as far as I remember), you can run it locally on iPhone nowadays. Don't do it though, waste of battery.

Quote from: Chakwal on December 14, 2023, 12:29:09Any thoughts on how well a device such as the Switch 2 would be for running LLM locally?

Switch 2 doesn't exist.

Quote from: Chakwal on December 14, 2023, 12:29:09do you think memory requirements for LLM's will reduce in future

Requirements reduce all the time.

Quote from: Chakwal on December 14, 2023, 12:29:09but I also feel it is kind a largely irrelevant because the most people do not buy $4300+ 64GB ram M-silicon Max MBP'

32Gb RAM MBP will provide you with enough VRAM to run 34B LLMs.

Quote from: Chakwal on December 14, 2023, 12:29:09Another thing to note is a lot of these AI/ML libraries (Pytorch, Tensorflow, etc) and tutorials almost all of them are tested or run on Nvidia h/w and accelerated via their own CUDA frameworks.

Most already have Metal bindings or you can play with something like llama.cpp which is almost a "one button" native solution to run LLMs locally.

Quote from: Chakwal on December 14, 2023, 12:29:09The kind of demographic that do have access to that kind of hardware, usually are given to them free by their jobs/workplaces

Don't buy MBP if you are not earning $ for it in 2 weeks to 2 months of work, easy. It has it's own target audience and sells millions.

Quote from: Chakwal on December 14, 2023, 12:29:09You're actually the first person, A, I've heard really pushing for the idea of running LLM's locally on MBP's

It was just an example of what is possible on MBPs without buying a couple 8-16Gb video cards. I wasn't the one to come up with the idea, there's a lot of hype about it over r/localllama.

Quote from: RobertJasiek on December 14, 2023, 16:07:32LLM nets might work mostly on RAM

They will run on CPU at CPU speed on x86. Get Threadripper.

Quote from: RobertJasiek on December 14, 2023, 16:07:32Likely, storage reqirements for inference will drop

Storage requirements never were high in the first place. They went down from bearable to pffft.

Quote from: RobertJasiek on December 14, 2023, 16:07:32Forget LLMs on gadgets. LLM needs proper hardware.

Your comment didn't age well ))
medium.datadriveninvestor.com/pocket-sized-revolution-7689eba63650
Though I myself strongly oppose wasting phone battery on local inferences.

"Don't buy MBP if you are not earning $ for it in 2 weeks to 2 months of work": Arrogance not meeting reality of many saving money for a much longer time.

"MBP [...] sells millions": So what. x64 notebooks sell many times more. Your statement is empty.

LLM sparsification: the paper concludes: "We have demonstrated the ability to run LLMs up to twice the size of available DRAM" Therefore, if the paper is applied to its specific LLMs, 50% storage can be saved. Not bad, but not enough to solve the principle storage problem yet.

Quote from: RobertJasiek on December 27, 2023, 16:08:17Arrogance not meeting reality of many saving money for a much longer time.

It's not an arrogance, it's just reality. MBP is for working professionals who do not find it expensive. You may like it or not.

Quote from: RobertJasiek on December 27, 2023, 16:08:17So what. x64 notebooks sell many times more. Your statement is empty.

It's not a competition. My statement is on point. There IS a target audience for MBP - and it's selling in millions - it's just "many times more" is not the target audience for Apple, they can't even produce that much.

Quote from: RobertJasiek on December 27, 2023, 16:08:17Not bad, but not enough to solve the principle storage problem yet.

What "storage problem", what are you even talking about. ) They were running LLMs using 50% of RAM usually required by those LLMs - as little as 5-6GB RAM for running 6.7B parameter LLM in 16bit precision - with a speedup of x20-25 on GPU.

Quote from: A on December 27, 2023, 16:39:47as little as 5-6GB RAM for running 6.7B parameter LLM in 16bit precision - with a speedup of x20-25 on GPU.

More meaningless statements without context. 6.7B parameters for what LLM? What models with what numbers of parameters does it have and what is the quality of results for each model? 16bit precision of what? What GPU?

Quote from: RobertJasiek on December 27, 2023, 18:41:40More meaningless statements without context. 6.7B parameters for what LLM? What models with what numbers of parameters does it have and what is the quality of results for each model? 16bit precision of what? What GPU?

Oh man, half these questions is answered in the paper itself (there's a link to it in article), another half is so base-level, especially "16 bit precision of what" one. Why have you even started arguing in the first place, you don't know the basics.

I cannot spend time to read full texts of every paper somebody links.

If something is basic, explain it within seconds instead of wasting more time on meta-discussion! (16b might refer to different buses or to objects of the model; I do not guess which.)

Smh

Quote from: RobertJasiek on December 14, 2023, 16:07:32According to the user A, LLMs need much VRAM or unified memory but I do not know if improved / altered LLM nets might work mostly on RAM, too.

Robert, why do you keep trying to communicate with stupid bot A? Just ignore him, as if he's not on topic and that's it. The best thing you can do.

Complex neural networks simply require HBM3 memory as RAM, but a stupid bot And lies all the time about the need for VRAM. Neural networks don't need VRAM, they need the fastest memory available on the market. But the RAM in Apple hardware, although 1.5-2 times faster than in the x86 camp, is still inferior to the dedicated VRAM in video cards by up to 10 times. And of course, HBM3, which is used on serious neural networks in servers, loses up to 10 times.

Actually, there is only one problem - there is very little memory (terabytes, hundreds of terabytes are needed) and speeds of terabytes per second, which only HBM3 can provide. Obviously, neither Apple nor consumer versions of x86 are in any way suitable for serious neural networks and will not be very suitable yet for a long time due to slowdowns in both productivity and technical processes.

Once upon a time in the 90s, a computer with a performance of 1 Teraflops (with 64-bit precision) was considered the height of progress, but now many ordinary people have it. This is what led to the overall progress and development in software as we see it now. But a further leap (towards smart expert systems) requires hardware thousands of times more powerful than what is currently available to the average person. Everything is very simple. As before, advanced technologies consume energy (forced) like a whole power plant and cost a lot of money, which is what NVidia and AMD are now making money on, but someday it will be in a pocket gadget if the IT world finds a way out of the silicon impasse.

Samsung recently promised simultaneous speech translation in 2 languages using a local neural network in the S24. I don't believe in this and I'm sure that Samsung will screw up for a simple reason - the local resources of top-end smartphones are completely insufficient for accurate translation from one language to another, especially on free topics. If this were possible with low consumption and power of hardware, the Google translator would not produce such wild nonsense in elementary sentences.

I'm afraid that Samsung will soon quarrel with many people who have entrusted their conversations to such a smartphone. Well, it's kind of like how idiots who believed in a working "autopilot" die. I turn out to be right everywhere, later, years later, seeing everything in advance, when the crowd finally realizes how complicated it all is and how modern technologies are not ready for it.

Hundreds of billions of dollars were poured into autopilots (or rather, businessmen from startups sawed it up), and the result was a complete failure. There will also be simultaneous speech interpreters in the next 20-30 years. People, of course, will use it (they are greedy for new products without going into too much detail), but along with mistakes and quarrels, there will also be a wave of disappointment. But Samsung will be able to temporarily stand out from its competitors and sell more. Goal achieved...

Well, this is what happens when someone doesn't even realize VRAM can be HBM and says "NNs don't need VRAM" while literally everyone and their mother are using VRAM, be it desktop GPU or A100 GPU.

The rest of this sh*tpost is just a travel into mental disorder, hundreds of terabytes of RAM, whole power plants, yeah, keep us posted...

Quote from: NikoB on December 27, 2023, 20:35:13I turn out to be right everywhere

Grand finale