Quote from: Gastredner on February 14, 2024, 21:39:16Long story short: There is no right or wrong. Every user has different preferences, which is why we need granular fan control!

The crux of the problem is that the volume of the Legion cases and the weight of the CO are lower than that of my old Dell G5 5587, and the TDP is sharply higher (real, not declared). My Dell 5587 runs all the time in the maximum performance profile, but does not turn on the coolers for hours at a normal load of up to 35% on average by core. With W10 tuning and undervolting. The processor consumes 47W peak in PL1 and 75W in PL2. When idle, processor consumption drops to 1.7-1.9W.

Do you see something similar in the new series 2022-2023-2024? No! Their consumption has increased monstrously, and the physics of the cases excludes the best temperature conditions under heavy and pulsed loads. This leads to dangerous consequences when turning on coolers at 72-75C. And there is obligatory noise at 50-60C.

Yes, the new models are much faster than my old one - 3-4 times, at least. But we are not comparing the time difference, but a similar class of laptops and we see that the new models, with the consumption cheating from Intel/NVidia, which brought the consumption of laptops to a monstrous 270-300W, instead of the old 120-140, was the reason that Laptop manufacturers simply cannot ensure long-term reliability of the SoC/dGPU power circuit without constant airflow! That's the reason.

My G5 has been running without a single BSOD for 6 years with the coolers turned off almost 99% of the time. They are as pristine as the factory (I haven't opened it for maintenance in 4 years). But the keyboard, which I hardly used, failed (and that's a shame).

In order for modern laptops to become quiet again (or in other words, manufacturers allow you to increase the temperature threshold for turning on coolers), consumption must drop significantly.

But today only Apple makes balanced machines in this regard (and this is more due to the best technical process available only to Apple), rather than being reminiscent of the Dell G5 5587 in terms of balance, with the only difference being that their models are much lighter. It's just that they deliberately supplied performance for the sake of the owner's comfort in terms of noise, and x86 laptop manufacturers didn't care about this key factor, because their audience is crazier and has different goals - games..

Still, those who buy laptops for work and not for games, put the temperature at which the coolers turn on first, along with a high-quality keyboard and screen. Finding such models is not easy, because... manufacturers of "gaming" series care little about the correct balancing of the system, and the cost of the solution most often (mass series) is naturally much less than Apple models - this leads to the second problem - the maximum reduction in the cost of the component base in terms of the power harness of the SoC. Therefore, in order to save money, they lower the threshold for turning on coolers, because... more frequent airflow increases the service life of cheap components. No miracles. Pure physics and the price of the issue.

To choose a well-balanced model, you need to read a lot of forums and reviews and combine everything together in your head.

Quote from: NikoB on February 13, 2024, 14:00:39Lenovo does not want to give this control for a simple reason - the components are too cheap to withstand such loads ... Turning on coolers at a temperature of 72-75C, versus 55-60C for all Legion series

Do you have a source for claiming that Lenovo buys less quality parts? I assume different fan tables are the desperate try to suit every customer's needs which is impossible.

Turn on the fans at too low temperatures (like often done on Lenovo laptops), users will complain about fan noise. Turn on the fans at higher temperatures, users will complain about uncomfortable (which also is very subjective) skin temperatures. Let the fans spin all the time (HP calls it "Always On" in the BIOS), users will complain about never stopping fans. Switch off the fans under low load, users will complain about on off cycles.

Long story short: There is no right or wrong. Every user has different preferences, which is why we need granular fan control!

Quote from: NikoB on February 13, 2024, 14:00:39... premature failure of the SoC and dGPU power circuits, at elevated temperatures with deliberately reduced cooler speeds...

Source?

Lower fan speed does not raise temperatures: Take a look at this review's stress test in the section "emissions": On Performance mode (which is meant and used by most users for gaming), the temperature reach 88°C on the CPU and 82.8°C on the graphics card (red line).

With reduced fan speeds, those temperatures would not raise, but thermal throttling would reduce power consumption automatically once those temperature limits are hit. So you have the same temperatures like on performance mode, which are approved by Lenovo, but with lower fan noise and automatically lowered power consumption.

Every laptop in the world throttles thermally under load. Intel HX CPUs can draw up to 200 watts. No laptop cooler is capable of cooling this. What does the CPU do? It throttles.

It is not a bug, it is a feature. Limit fan speed and temperatures and let thermal throttling determine the best performance possible within these limits.

Quote from: NikoB on February 13, 2024, 14:00:39After all, they don't want to make a larger case and a heavier radiator system and larger coolers - this will reduce their competitiveness among the brainless part of the population

I agree that the inflation of stupidly thin and light gaming laptops is marketing scam (looking at you Asus Zephyrus G14 and G16), but the Lenovo Legion 5i does nice on the hardware side. 3 millimeters more for thicker fans and easily 300-400 grams heavier would be great, but it is not too bad as it is.

Quote from: Gastredner on February 13, 2024, 11:47:52Lenovo has changed their fan control so that LFC does not find the fan tables anymore. This is a huge scam by Lenovo because they know that LFC is very popular and customers need fan control. Instead of providing it in vantage, they destroy a community project and actively prevent you to use it. How can you show the middlefinger to your customers better than that way?

Lenovo does not want to give this control for a simple reason - the components are too cheap to withstand such loads, with reduced speed, for the sake of silence even in office workload (compare with my old Dell G5 5587, weighing 2.83 kg, which has threshold settings from the factory Turning on coolers at a temperature of 72-75C, versus 55-60C for all Legion series - this is why 5587 is the quietest series outside of games). And on the "Pro"+ series they usually give a 2-year warranty and do not want to receive a warranty request before the end of this period due to premature failure of the SoC and dGPU power circuits, at elevated temperatures with deliberately reduced cooler speeds. After all, they don't want to make a larger case and a heavier radiator system and larger coolers - this will reduce their competitiveness among the brainless part of the population, the majority of buyers (you have already wised up and passed, but many are resigned to the purchase or cannot pass it)

Buyers vote with their wallets, but Lenovo simply dumps during discount seasons - outside of these seasons, rarely anyone buys their models, unless, again, there is a good price.

In addition, Lenovo is the only company that makes almost full-fledged keyboards with a full numpad, which automatically turns buyers away from models from other Chinese companies and, for example, from HP/Dell lines, which are also always more expensive compared to comparable hardware and do not represent anything special in terms of quality of components with a minimum standard guarantee.

So there is practically no choice on the planet if you need a "gaming" laptop with a full keyboard on the numpad and in general in terms of the set of ports, their location and everything in the complex, which is what Lenovo attracts buyers with.

About the same as buyers have no choice at all in 17.3 and especially 18" 16:10 models. In fact. After all, Lenovo does not have 18" 16:10 lines at all - they left them to Asus, although they sell them with a damaged numpad and a bunch of other shortcomings - but in the absence of choice, crayfish becomes a fish...

Quote from: Neenyah on February 03, 2024, 19:20:16

Quote from: Gastredner on February 03, 2024, 13:49:33Da Lenovo im Gegensatz zu vielen anderen Herstellern keine freie Lüftersteuerung anbietet (nein, man kann im Custom Mode NICHT die Lüfter herunterdrehen), kann man das Problem nicht beheben.

Lenovo Legion Toolkit does exactly that and, for Legions, it is far better than Vantage

Sadly not. According to the developer, Legion Toolkit does (can?) not override Lenovo's fan control, because it does not write into the EC.

I have bought the Lenovo Legion Pro 5 some time ago and I can confirm this. I tried Vantage, Toolkit and Legion Fan Control. None of them worked. You are tied to Lenovo's stupid fan control, which lets you only increase fan speed but not decrease.

There is even a thread about this: Google for "Lenovo Legion Pro 7 fan control broken in vantage".

The most frustrating thing is: Lenovo does not only ignore that request for years (you can easily find forum threads from 2019 where customers requested fan control), Lenovo actively prevent you to control the fans via the popular Legion Fan Control (LFC) which was working on Gen6 and Gen7 models by changing fan speeds on firmware level, but does not work anymore on Gen8 and newer!

Lenovo has changed their fan control so that LFC does not find the fan tables anymore. This is a huge scam by Lenovo because they know that LFC is very popular and customers need fan control. Instead of providing it in vantage, they destroy a community project and actively prevent you to use it. How can you show the middlefinger to your customers better than that way?

I have returned my Pro 5 and won't buy from Lenovo anymore, because they are ignorant, very incompetent and they don't respect their customers requirements.

Quote from: NikoB on February 03, 2024, 19:02:16This is wrong. Lenovo has software for managing coolers, but it is completely Chinese version. Apparently they don't consider it necessary to give it outside of China.

Are you sure the fan speed can be lowered on high temperatures? I highly doubt it, but would appreciate it, because it is the only thing that prevents me from buying a Lenovo laptop. Do you have a source for your claim?

Quote from: NikoB on February 03, 2024, 19:02:16Apparently you are not part of the target audience. ))

Why am I not part of the target audience?

Quote from: NikoB on February 03, 2024, 19:02:16Do you want to play in silence at home?

Nope, thanks. I am fine with clearly audible but not disturbingly loud fans at around 42-44db.

Quote from: Gastredner on February 03, 2024, 13:49:33Da Lenovo im Gegensatz zu vielen anderen Herstellern keine freie Lüftersteuerung anbietet (nein, man kann im Custom Mode NICHT die Lüfter herunterdrehen), kann man das Problem nicht beheben.

Lenovo Legion Toolkit does exactly that and, for Legions, it is far better than Vantage: https://github.com/BartoszCichecki/LenovoLegionToolkit

Quote from: Gastredner on February 03, 2024, 13:49:33Da Lenovo im Gegensatz zu vielen anderen Herstellern keine freie Lüftersteuerung anbietet (nein, man kann im Custom Mode NICHT die Lüfter herunterdrehen), kann man das Problem nicht beheben.

This is wrong. Lenovo has software for managing coolers, but it is completely Chinese version. Apparently they don't consider it necessary to give it outside of China.

Quote from: Gastredner on February 03, 2024, 13:49:33Das macht das Lenovo Legion 5i für mich völlig nutzlos

Apparently you are not part of the target audience. ))

Any "gaming" laptop is essentially an absurd solution, even such monsters as the MSI Titan.

Do you want to play in silence at home? Spend the same budget on a desktop. It will be much more useful...

No one can cheat physics if you want to play at the current level of development in the gaming industry with high quality graphics and a minimum fps of at least 60, without drawdowns. Choose - either quality and silence with a desktop, or noise and compromises in quality and fps with any laptop.

"Gaming" laptops make sense to buy only as a cheap replacement for expensive professional workstations, because... They obviously have better cooling under load than the office series. And much higher upgrade possibilities. As well as the overall lifespan due to all this.

Buying a "gaming" laptop specifically for gaming is pure madness.

Die Kühlung sieht sehr beeindruckend aus. 2 große Lüfter und relativ viele Heatpipes. Für ein Midrange Produkt ist das nicht selbstverständlich!! Bitte weiter so! Manche Konkurrenten bieten schlechtere Kühlungen in höherpreisigen Geräten. Die Gehäusedicke finde ich auch fast perfekt. Nicht zu dick und nicht zu dünn. 2-3mm dicker wäre auch okay und beim Gewicht verschenken sie Potential. 2,4 kg ist unnötig leicht für ein Gamingnotebook. Aber zumindest kein zu dünnes Gehäuse mit flachen, kleinen Lüftern.

Wo sich Lenovo komplett disqualifiziert, ist die Lüftersteuerung. Wie der Autor richtig schreibt, wird das Gerät schon im Balance Modus so laut, dass man ohne Headset nicht mehr spielen kann. Schade, dass ihr das nicht stärker kritisiert!

QuoteBeim Spielen hat man aber sowieso nichts von den Lautsprechern, da die Lüfter zu laut sind.

Dieser Satz spricht Bände und ich verstehe nicht, warum das schulterzuckend akzeptiert wird und zu keiner empfindlichen Abwertung führt? Weder sollten schlechte Lautsprecher bei einem Preis von über 1000 Euro(!) akzeptiert werden, noch eine Lautstärke, die einen zu dicken Noise Cancel Kopfhörern zwingt! Mitmenschen im selben (oder sogar Neben-)Raum soll man auch Kopfhörer kaufen?

Da Lenovo im Gegensatz zu vielen anderen Herstellern keine freie Lüftersteuerung anbietet (nein, man kann im Custom Mode NICHT die Lüfter herunterdrehen), kann man das Problem nicht beheben. Ein Blick auf die niedrigen Temperaturen unter Last zeigt, dass die Lüfter aber langsamer drehen könnten. Das macht das Lenovo Legion 5i für mich völlig nutzlos. Ein Jammer, dass Lenovo gute Hardware durch unterirdische Software unbrauchbar macht.

What do we have for a monstrous $1750 for this class of laptops?

Let's start with the main one - the supposedly "gaming" class. This is initially a pure lie from Lenovo, because... The laptop is not capable of delivering stable 60fps in any modern game in ultra settings in the native screen resolution of 2.5K.

Second. Screen - I don't believe in this author's numbers for native contrast and am sure that they do not correspond to real ones. The typical contrast declared by Lenovo is 1200:1. Focus on a mediocre (for 2024) contrast of 1100:1. Those. You definitely won't get 1500:1 as a buyer with this model.

The response of the panel is shameful and Lenovo is directly lying about 240Hz. 1/240 = 4-5ms. We see in the review shameful figures of 8-12ms, i.e. the real speed of image redrawing does not exceed 100-110Hz, even in an office 2D load, for example, with banal text scrolling in Word and browser. HDR support here is 100% fake (screen panels are not DCI-P3 coated), as is DV. The 165Hz version doesn't even have these labels.

Go ahead. It's 2024, Intel/AMD SoCs have long had built-in 2.5Gbps ports, and the price of an external 5Gbps controller is a penny, but greedy Lenovo again installed an antique 1Gbps RJ45 port from back in 1999 in the car for a monstrous $1,750.

According to the Intel datasheet, the SoC 14650HX does NOT have built-in TB4 ports, but at this price it was not difficult to add an external controller. Let me remind you that external TB3 controllers were available in laptops for $800 in 2018...

The processor consumption is monstrous (including at rest) and everything is clear here - despite the obvious optimization of the new version of the old Raptor cores (this is not Meteor Lake, alas), Intel processors still consume a monstrous amount of energy, which becomes a consequence of extreme noise, even in office load.

With good performance in CBR15 in PL1 mode with a consumption of 100W, however, this "new" Intel processor still shamefully loses even to the AMD 7840U, running at 32W in AIDA FP64 Ray-Trace Test:
www.notebookcheck.net/Lenovo-ThinkPad-P14s-G4-AMD-review-fast-portable-straightforward.795741.0.html
7840U PL1 32W - 2090+ in CBR15 / AIDA64-FP64 Ray-Trace - 11132 KRay/s vs. 10316 KRay/s for 14650HX...

Moving on... the optimization of the 14650HX memory controller is simply disgusting! Lenovo and Intel have definitely embarrassed themselves. The efficiency of the memory controller is much lower than 75%. Which is usually typical for AMD SoC memory controllers.
Let me remind you that Intel itself claims 89GB/s performance when installing 5600 modules - compare these declarations with real numbers and average them...

Now about Lenovo's lies in psref:
The HDMI 2.1 port, even in FRL6 mode, does NOT support 8k monitors in lossless mode! This is physically impossible - only with data loss in DSC mode. Future owners should keep this in mind.

Also an obvious failure is the absolutely shameful card reader, 12 years old in terms of speed. And the shameful 1080p camera without autofocus, which does not match the native screen resolution.

What could justify the $1,750 price tag?
64Gb of RAM and 2TB SSD or 32GB and 4TB SSD.
Or 32GB/2TB + RJ45 port at 5Gbps or a TB5 port or two TB4 with an external controller, especially since Intel declares arbitrary support (at the request of the motherboard manufacturer) pci-e 4.0 or 5.0.

I also draw attention to the shame of Intel - despite the fact that DP2.0 ports were adopted as a standard in the distant pre-concentration camp and pre-war 2019, 5 years later neither Intel nor AMD can still offer consumers ports of this standard! The SoC 14650HX for laptops in 2024 features shamefully outdated DP1.4b!!! Goodbye 8k monitors and in 2024...

Thank you for your attention.

Die Tabelle ist wirklich gut.
@Robert dein Wunsch müsste mit dem Custom-Profil/Modus erfüllt werden können.

Ich wüsste aktuell nicht welches ich nehmen würde. 5i/Pro 5i/das kommende Slim 5 mit Ryzen

Von der Tabelle in den Testbedingungen bin ich begeistert!

Im Ruhemodus 35dB für 75% Geschwindigkeit von Time Spy Graphics ist jedenfalls relativ eine sehr gute Option. (Absolut ist es mit 4060 natürlich zu langsam.)

Auch im Ruhemodus gar nicht gefällt mir allerdings die Wattverteilung zwischen CPU und GPU. Die CPU hat ca. 40W zu viel - besser hätte stattdessen die GPU 40W mehr. Dann sollte das gleiche Betriebsgeräusch entstehen.

Danke für den Test.

Sieht doch nach einem recht passablen Gaming-Noteobook aus..