Quote from: Neenyah on June 10, 2023, 16:56:13try to convince at least one professional video editor or music producer that numpad is needed.

It seems to me that these people are less useful workers within civilization. Recently, Brad Pitt, in a lengthy dialogue at Babylon, tried to prove to the public that actors(the series can be continued - musicians, football players, etc.) are a useful part of society. At the end of the movie...

Quote from: Neenyah on June 10, 2023, 16:58:31See, a professional tennis player doesn't claim that a professional basketball player need to have a racket (numpad) despite both of them playing sports (using computers).

Of course this is true, but you need to take into account their market share and weight in society. ;)

Quote from: Benjamin Herzig on June 10, 2023, 18:25:23If you do not work with a lot of numbers, the numpad potentially gets in your way, because it makes the keyboard off center, making typing less comfortable. That is the main reason why I personally don't want a numpad on my laptop. Bonus: A centered keyboard design is aesthetically more beautiful.

100% this for me too 👏 Also touchpad gets aligned to the left side do it's also less comfortable (and slower) to use than when it sits basically centered.

I think when Framework announced their 16 inch model, they announced that their market research found a 50/50 split on the numpad: 50 % want/need it, 50 % do not want/need it.

If you do not work with a lot of numbers, the numpad potentially gets in your way, because it makes the keyboard off center, making typing less comfortable. That is the main reason why I personally don't want a numpad on my laptop. Bonus: A centered keyboard design is aesthetically more beautiful.

See, a professional tennis player doesn't claim that a professional basketball player need to have a racket (numpad) despite both of them playing sports (using computers).

Quote from: NikoB on June 10, 2023, 16:50:57I personally tested on a bet with owners of models without a numpad, who assured that they enter code and data, as well as perform group operations with files, quite quickly. They all lost the bet to me. Simply because instead of one click on a blind memory, they were forced to use combinations. Naturally, they still continued to use what they were used to, but the fact is that other pros wrote about it many times, including what was a tough reason for abandoning many models of 15.6-17 "laptops (for example, the XPS line ) because their keyboard is completely unsuitable for efficient work with code and data.

Ok, fair, and that is all good but...

Quote from: NikoB on June 10, 2023, 16:50:57Try to convince at least one accountant or economist that the numpad is not needed.

...try to convince at least one professional video editor or music producer that numpad is needed.

Quote from: Neenyah on June 10, 2023, 16:31:05Sounds more like having troubles (or nerve damage) with inaccuracy to control your own fingers but ok.

I personally tested on a bet with owners of models without a numpad, who assured that they enter code and data, as well as perform group operations with files, quite quickly. They all lost the bet to me. Simply because instead of one click on a blind memory, they were forced to use combinations. Naturally, they still continued to use what they were used to, but the fact is that other pros wrote about it many times, including what was a tough reason for abandoning many models of 15.6-17 "laptops (for example, the XPS line ) because their keyboard is completely unsuitable for efficient work with code and data.

Try to convince at least one accountant or economist that the numpad is not needed.

Just the use of more complex key combinations a priori leads to problems with nerves in the hands.

Sounds more like having troubles (or nerve damage) with inaccuracy to control your own fingers but ok.

It is an indisputable fact that for professional developers and many scientific and engineering professions - the absence of a numpad is like death. The efficiency and speed of entering code and data drops tenfold.

Quote from: NikoB on June 10, 2023, 15:17:2113-14" models can only be considered as portable system units - it is physically impossible to work quickly with their keyboards without a numpad...

You have that weird "I'm not hungry so hunger doesn't exist anywhere in the world" way to communicate.

If you could realize that not everyone on this planet shares your same identical POVs and that many people can't actually work quickly WITH NUMPAD because they don't need it, so they go for TKL or 60% then you would, maybe, stop fetishizing that numpad and forcing that narrative into every single comment around here.
 
Personally, I'm avoiding getting laptop with numpad so I have my X1 Carbon with full-sized (sans-numpad) keyboard and for my desktop PC I also have my trusted ThinkPad TrackPoint Keyboard II (lenovo.com/us/en/p/accessories-and-software/keyboards-and-mice/keyboards/4y40x49493) that has no numpad (😱). And check this now - I work with them perfectly fine, I do my job, I earn money to finance my life and family and I also play CSGO on FACEIT where I also earn money from playing... all without numpad. Shocker, isn't it?
 
You can also go to r/Workspaces/ and r/keyboards/ and see how many of those people actually use numpad. Very few. Yet they do their work and live their lives just fine. Hell if they asked you, HHKB (happyhackingkb.com) would be left with no option but to just quit their business because they don't have numpad despite their legendary status in community.

Quote from: NikoB on June 10, 2023, 15:17:21This is not the main problem of all modern keyboards from their business series - they are terrible not for this, but for the Esc, F1..F12 narrowed in height, which destroy the ergonomics of inputs for professionals who work a lot with code.

And in 15.6+ models, the numpad keys are narrower in width.

Apparently usage differs. Except for Enter, mine emphasises 1) arrow keys (ca. 10,000 times per day), 2) numpad and page navigation keys, 3) main keys, 4) function row keys (typically a few dozen times per day). I can, however, easily understand that others can have heavy usage of function row keys and place it at (1).

QuoteUntil they return to the classic keyboard, which is close in size to the desktop buttons, there will be no sense.

Ok.

Quote from: RobertJasiek on May 09, 2023, 20:06:14tiny arrow keys

This is not the main problem of all modern keyboards from their business series - they are terrible not for this, but for the Esc, F1..F12 narrowed in height, which destroy the ergonomics of inputs for professionals who work a lot with code.

And in 15.6+ models, the numpad keys are narrower in width.

Until they return to the classic keyboard, which is close in size to the desktop buttons, there will be no sense.

13-14" models can only be considered as portable system units - it is physically impossible to work quickly with their keyboards without a numpad and a small non-ergonomic screen. It is more important there as many expansion ports with direct access without adapters and as quiet as possible cooling system from the PSU, with an average speed chips.

Throwing Lenovo in an attempt to sell these series (much less reliable than the same series 10-15 years ago) and simultaneously sell Legion (with reduced capabilities since 2023 for marketing reasons) lead to sad consequences. Lenovo's sales fell in 2022 by as much as 54% compared to 2021, and it has slipped from the first place on the planet in the production of PC / laptops to the 3rd one.

And of course, the lack of 10 bits 4k@120-144Hz panels with a color coverage of 100% DCI-P3 and at least 95% AdobeRGB at the same time with a fast response (<7ms for G2G/B2W) and a high refresh rate on IPS will, of course, disappoint professionals working with color.

I would like the industry to work together to finally invest in microLED, so that finally there are screens with a response like that of AMOLED (1-3ms on B2W / G2G), but matte, with 8k resolution (400+ ppi) and high-frequency PWM and real native contrast from 100,000:1, as in the best versions of AMOLED. And of course with full Rec.2020 coverage (or better, of course, ProPhoto color space).

With a burn-in resource of at least 20k hours, up to 50% loss of brightness, which initially can reach at ABL>=70%, at least 1500 nits if necessary. And time-stable (after calibration) accurate color reproduction, unlike chronic problems on all AMOLEDs.

We've all been waiting for normal screens for 20 years... but they still don't exist...

The P1 and X1 Extreme share the same chassis.  They were just offered with different GPUs and in some configurations, overlapped.

I am disappointed.
There are many types of workstasion, so I wanted the P1 to be discontinued and the X1 to remain.

Quote from: Broohaha on May 11, 2023, 02:42:18What am I talking about? I'm talking about the lack of an IPS option that offers 100% coverage of one of the wide color gamuts (DCI-P3 or Adobe RGB)...

My apologies buddy, it seems that reading (and commenting) on phone when being dead-tired is a receipt for missing crucial parts, my bad 🙏 And yes I agree with you, it's a very weird decision from Lenovo.

Quote from: Waynae Carsch on May 12, 2023, 12:56:13Where is X1 extreme gen6?

Won't happen, they killed the line as it's essentially the same thing as the P1 series and there is no reason to keep both now when they have Z16 in offer.

Where is X1 extreme gen6?