Quote from: NikoB on January 19, 2023, 13:32:11By the way, my old Thinkpad (which was simply impossible to use without TPFanControl) burned out, most likely because of its use for 12 years. I set the threshold for turning on the coolers at increased speeds at 62C, because before this threshold it was impossible to endure their noise, and up to 62C it almost never had time to heat up in surfing. Then I almost stopped using it in this mode to the fullest (on YouTube it just burned out), but the software that I entrusted to it - the load requirements in the background also gradually grew and as a result it could not withstand the temperature drops, the power harness burned out. I was very upset, because. initially assumed that it was much more reliable and durable than the MSI gaming laptop, which is even older than it. But he is still alive, although he is already 15 years old.

Thus, I did not see any increased reliability from the Thinkpad series (and real comfort of use with minimal noise in operation without such tricks as described above) and I will never buy it again, because. the costs for this series are simply meaningless, given the fall in the overall reliability of these series and the limitations in upgrading and worse hardware than in "gaming" laptops, literally at times.

My T440s with which I am very content is from 2014/15 so 9 years old and if it would burn out I would not be surprised, as it is used almost constantly.
This would be ~ 15$/month.
Most of this electronic pieces dont last longer than 2 or 3 years. The thinkpad series is still generally
a very high quality product.
My initial think pad in 2005 also lasted until 2015 until I put him away because he was way too slow and needed also
an additional external fan.

Quote from: le-grx on September 10, 2023, 21:38:01Puh, hätte ich mal die Kommentare vorher gelesen. Ich hab auf Grundlage des Tests hier, mir ein refurbished T14S Gen3 AMD zugelegt, weil mich vor allem die Beschreibung des Lüfters angetan hatte. Und ne 6800U mit 1900x1200 ein schöner sweet spot ist, was Leistung angeht, für mich.

Well... Entgegen dem Artikel ist es so, wie viele beschreiben. Unter Windows geht der Lüfter praktisch nicht aus. Ich habe teilweise Tctl/Die-Temperaturen von 40°C, einzelne Kerne melden unter 40°C und der Lüfter hängt bei 2600rpm fest und geht nicht aus. Es scheint, dass die Schwelle für die Lüfter 40°C sind. Warum auch immer. Ich hab auch Windows 11 einmal runtergeschmissen und Windows 10 getestet, ob das was ändert. Aber nein. Ich verstehe echt nicht, wie ihr das hinbekommen habt, das Ganze so zu testen und einzuschätzen. Hattet ihr vielleicht irgendein sehr frühes BIOS/EC-Firmware, was da irgendwie anders war? Bin etwas sehr ratlos und enttäuscht.

Leneovo hat anscheinend mit einem BIOS Update the Schwellwerte verschlechtert. Das gleiche auch beim T14 G3 und P14s G3. Zum kotzen ist das! Man kauft ein perfektes Produkt und ist happy - und dann zerstört ein Update das...

Puh, hätte ich mal die Kommentare vorher gelesen. Ich hab auf Grundlage des Tests hier, mir ein refurbished T14S Gen3 AMD zugelegt, weil mich vor allem die Beschreibung des Lüfters angetan hatte. Und ne 6800U mit 1900x1200 ein schöner sweet spot ist, was Leistung angeht, für mich.

Well... Entgegen dem Artikel ist es so, wie viele beschreiben. Unter Windows geht der Lüfter praktisch nicht aus. Ich habe teilweise Tctl/Die-Temperaturen von 40°C, einzelne Kerne melden unter 40°C und der Lüfter hängt bei 2600rpm fest und geht nicht aus. Es scheint, dass die Schwelle für die Lüfter 40°C sind. Warum auch immer. Ich hab auch Windows 11 einmal runtergeschmissen und Windows 10 getestet, ob das was ändert. Aber nein. Ich verstehe echt nicht, wie ihr das hinbekommen habt, das Ganze so zu testen und einzuschätzen. Hattet ihr vielleicht irgendein sehr frühes BIOS/EC-Firmware, was da irgendwie anders war? Bin etwas sehr ratlos und enttäuscht.

Typically, for the thinkpad line, everyone uses tpfan utility of manual control threshold for switching the coolers (or fixing the minimum revolutions).

I also used it on the old ThinkPad until it burned out. At 2000rpm, it was not heard even with 50cm from exhaust holes. Therefore, when reading pages and light surfing, I always sat in complete silence, as well as listening to music through the external DAC+amplifier on open-air headphones. It costs a lot.

As far as I know, the tpfan utility is still working on new thinkpad, but not on all series. And naturally, it reduces the service life, because Lenovo naturally did not expect that you would disperse the coolers from a greater temperature to eliminate most of the noise from the laptop.

Series with Amd is bad in that they have no undervolting and it is more difficult to manage everything in third-party utilities. If a laptop with Amd is not initially quiet, do not buy it at all.

Oh vollkommen vergessen. Das unerträglich klappernde Touchpad ist eine absolute Zumutung. Man hat das Gefühl nen Rechner aus dem Discounter gekauft zu haben. Würde im Büro einer neben mir den ganzen Tag darauf rumklappern, würd ich das Teil aus dem Fenster schleudern, während er beim Mittag ist...

Kann die gute Bewertung nicht nachvollziehen. Habe das Teil bereits nach 2 Tagen vollkommen entnervt zurückgeschickt. Im Akkubetrieb ist das Gerät wie beschrieben wunderbar leise. Der Lüfter läuft praktisch nie. Im  Netzbetrieb mit Dockingstation läuft der Lüfter allerdings immer, selbst im idle. Schon unter moderater Last fährt er schnell 1-2 Stufen rauf. Zurück im Idle dauerts dann leicht ne halbe Stunde bis sich der Lüfter wieder einkriegt und orgelt dann weiter auf niedrigster Stufe vor sich hin. Absolut unerträglich, man hat nicht 5 Minuten seine Ruhe.  Ziehe es vor mit meinem 5 Jahre altem ideapad 720 zu arbeiten. Und noch ne Kleinigkeit. Die Tastatur is bei Notebooks sicherlich eins der störungsanfälligsten Bauteile. Umso positiver, das sich diese bei den Thinkpad normalerweise mit wenigen Handgriffen wechseln lässt. Nicht beim T14s. Im Gegensatz zum T14 müsst ihr hier das komplette Teil zerlegen. Und ich meine wirklich komplett!

Bin über die Testergebnisse immer wieder verblüfft?!

And here's more about the corruption of the authorities of different countries and lobbying for the interests of corporations, for the sake of inflating prices:
apple.slashdot.org/story/23/02/11/0426247/how-big-tech-rewrote-americas-first-cell-phone-repair-law

Do you need more proof of the greed and lies of corporations tht they live on "3%"?
This is about the same well known joke as "2%" for which banksters live ...

Quote from: Benjamin Herzig on February 09, 2023, 16:21:53Of course, just adding up wholesale component pricing is also incomplete, because it does not include costs for manufacturing (labor, tooling), development, shipping, support.

I add up the retail prices, they are even more easily accessible, and the manufacturer's markup for memory and SSDs is many times higher than retail prices. This is a proven fact. In addition to government fees with illegal VAT and sales tax, which is just the second tier of fees after taxes on salaries and income.

And they deliberately impose Windows on us. Moreover, in countries such as the US and the EU, you have almost no choice to buy a laptop without it. Just look for such options and you are unlikely to find them. Saved the price of 32GB and 1TB SSD combined in case of Windows 10 Pro. Even if the person does not need Windows. Moreover, the most valuable models in terms of components are deliberately sold only with OS from M$. In some countries, you can return money for Windows, but again, determining the price of the right to use it in the OEM version (which practically does not differ in price from the retail one, which can be rearranged to another hardware, and the OEM will die along with your laptop or PC according to a vile rule installed M$, although you will pay almost the same for it as for a retail copy).

I have been doing market analysis for many years. Please don't tell me stories. I know very well all the methods and moves, how laptop and PC manufacturers wind up the prices of components at times. And this is not counting the fraud with the quality of components, which has long taken epic forms on the planet. Otherwise, it would not be more profitable for people to buy a laptop with a minimum amount of installed memory (or better without it at all) and buy 32-64GB on their own with a 10-year warranty. And just like with an SSD, the price will be several times lower and with a much larger guarantee. You are given the worst possible wi-fi adapters, the lousiest antennas for them in terms of quality. Although the difference is at the level of the cost of these components, a penny. Like everything else, like the original batteries, which you, after a while, will not be able to buy for either a smartphone or a laptop, only low-quality fakes. This is also done intentionally to force you to buy a new model as soon as possible.

And even where it is possible to explicitly display full-fledged ports (they are already built into the SoC), greedy manufacturers do not bring them out for a penny, they just sell the same thing but at a double price in "VIP" lines.

It's all disgusting. And every experienced buyer on the planet knows this for a long time. For any arbitrarily taken product.

Everything has its price, but the trouble for capitalists and marketers now is that there are people like me who reveal to more naive and inexperienced people the true price of things in the modern world and that all their howls about intellectual property and some super-costs in realities do not cost a cent, as the greedy Apple recently demonstrated to us from your own news with its top solutions bought up on trade-in for next to nothing.

Before the goods go to retail, they will go through a chain of intermediary speculators and the authorities of each country will take their share from you in the second or even third round of fees.

As a result, a product that could cost 2-3 times cheaper is sold at exorbitant prices. And then the naive public (just usually poorly educated people and young people) yell at the forms that the price does not match the quality. Of course, it does not correspond, because you feed with your savings not only the manufacturer, but also a bunch of intermediaries before you and the kleptocratic authorities of your country with their requisitions.

If the goods were sold at a selling price from the factory in retail, not a single person on the planet had any complaints about the quality of the goods for this money. But people take goods at retail with an overpriced price at times. This is a long proven fact.
-
IBM, on the other hand, are just losers who do not understand what they are doing now, mostly huddling state institutions. Their shares have not grown at all for 20 years, but only fall. So is Intel stock. AMD is also clearly visible - it went down, success behind...

Quote from: NikoB on February 09, 2023, 13:03:12I have lived long enough and know too much about this world... =)

Wisdom doesn't automatically come with age.
It comes with reflected thinking, not ignorance. Age can bring wisdom when reflections is multiplied by time. But when you expect unrealistic things, because one is ignorant, then it is very likely that you become bitter and not wise.

Back to Tech:
There are things I don't like about current ThinkPads, of course.
But I appreciate that Lenovo is keep pushing new innovations, in case you also followed the CES.

They are currently hiring 12,000 additional R&D Professionals and invested 2 billion USD into R&D in 2022. 
That is why their margin is 3%.
And sorry when one doesn't understand, that innovation must be funded by selling products.
Their margin-strong and mass products fund innovations like the x1 fold g2 16.
I react by purchasing usually the previous Generation devices. And I am happy.

I second Benjamin's points.

Quote from: NikoB on February 09, 2023, 13:03:12But now, with just a little effort, I can scan all the wholesale and retail prices in the world in a couple of hours, and I can accurately get a picture of how greedy each manufacturer is with their laptop model, simply by adding together the retail and wholesale prices for the components that make it up.

There is a very big flaw in your logic: Many laptops do not sell for their retail pricing. Especially, since this comment thread is about a business laptop, when we are talking about laptops targeting the enterprise: Large customers that order thousands of systems get big discounts.

Of course, just adding up wholesale component pricing is also incomplete, because it does not include costs for manufacturing (labor, tooling), development, shipping, support.

If laptops had a 30 % profit margin like you claim, companies like IBM never would have left this market. 3 to 5 % is more accurate. Laptops are a commoditized market, low profit, race to the bottom in terms of pricing. Its been like that since the late 90s, when Chinese manufacturers entered the market, who started to produce cheap laptops, undercutting the established competition, making laptops affordable enough for normal consumers but destroying the profitability of the market.

Quote from: Kabelkanal on February 09, 2023, 07:30:13Lenovo has made a profit of 3% (three per cent) - in total, over all products.
With only 3% profit, how in the world you expect them to provide for you a 62GB Ram setting, instead of 16GB, without going bankrupt?

Do not tell my slippers, I know the wholesale prices for laptops and how much they are cheaper than in retail.

Lenovo greedily sells even banal +8GB of memory in its laptops with 1 (one) year warranty with a markup of 200-300% relative to the retail price of the same module with at least 5 (five) years of warranty, and more often even 10+. It behaves approximately the same greedily (like other manufacturers, although of course Apple's greed cannot be surpassed by anyone in this regard) with SSDs and other components.

Your moaning could have had an effect on the naive public 35 years ago, when there was no Internet. But now, with just a little effort, I can scan all the wholesale and retail prices in the world in a couple of hours, and I can accurately get a picture of how greedy each manufacturer is with their laptop model, simply by adding together the retail and wholesale prices for the components that make it up. And I always get that the RAM and SSD are overpriced there at times. Like everything else. The minimum markup from the factory is at least 30%, not 3%. And this is the minimum. A greedy retail trade winds no less. Like the greedy criminal authorities, who, having taken a significant part of your income from you with taxes, when selling goods to you, they also cynically charge VAT (which in fact is a regular sales tax on the final buyer, for example, in Germany 19%, i.e. power rips off the population like sticky), as the second level, in a huge amount comparable to payroll taxes. Those. they have you in 3 stages - a manufacturer, a chain of speculators-sellers and the power of your country (this is thieves so thieves).

So I don't need to tell me about poor producers of goods, especially large multinational corporations, sellers and corrupt authorities with their extortions at times, which, de, they, poor things, cannot make ends meet with a constantly deficit budget with such huge extortions from the population of all countries. In the age of the Internet and the availability of any information in a matter of moments, these moans look ridiculous.

I have lived long enough and know too much about this world... =)

Quote from: Kabelkanal on February 09, 2023, 07:30:13With only 3% profit, how in the world you expect them to provide for you a 62GB Ram setting, instead of 16GB, without going bankrupt?

Let us assume a notebook has the space for 64GB. Each such notebook should support 64GB so the basic price of the notebook, even if as barebone without RAM, must include the development costs for enabling 64GB. If Lenovo sells a notebook with 64GB or 16GB for the price difference of such RAM modules on the free endconsumer market, it still earns money from the RAM upgrade because it can purchase RAM at (much) lower prices than endconsumers can.

If, however, Lenovo (or any manufacturer possibly so far other than Apple) tries to rip-off for 64GB upgrades, it might go bankrupt because too many people do not buy from it at all.

Quote from: NikoB on January 17, 2023, 20:04:01Another haha. An excellent quiet and powerful enough system unit to work with an external keyboard and monitor. And play on eGPU via USB40.

But everyone spoils the miserable 16GB. For such a price, 64GB should definitely stand here. Although, as far as I know, memory larger than 32GB is not supported in LPDDR in quad channels mode (4x32 bits), at least it was before, AMD has little information about this in the datasheet. But at least not put 32GB in a laptop for 1800 euros?! Lenovo got greedy in 2022...

And another interesting question - why are 1500: 1 much more common on 14" panels than on 15-17.3"?

In general, Lenovo again got lost among 3 pines...

Dear NikoB,

Lenovo has made a profit of 3% (three per cent) - in total, over all products.
With only 3% profit, how in the world you expect them to provide for you a 62GB Ram setting, instead of 16GB, without going bankrupt?

Since your post sounds as if you have little or no knowledge about economics, let me support:
Price differentiation exists everywhere - for nicer products, the producers ask for higher prices.
Usually, you sell less of nice products, but with higher margins. They drive innovation, e.g. with the Mercedes S-Class inventing Airbags, ABS and much more. Since innovating is expensive, you need higher margins on those products. These innovations then trickle down in all series and benefit all.

If you are looking for affordable 64GB, look for last generations or bulkier models - but not the latest, fastest, slimmest. The latest and greatest was never cheap.

Auf den Bericht vom T14s G3 AMD habe ich lange gewartet und gleich am Tag der Veröffentlichung gelesen.
Vielen Dank an die Redaktion für den tollen Testbericht!
Aus meiner Sicht macht ihr mit Abstand die besten Notebook-Tests und geistreiche Reviews. Da darf man auch mal Danke sagen.

Hallo,

Habt ihr auch vor, den größeren 16 Zoll Bruder mit AMD zu testen? T14 ist mir zu klein.

Libor