The bandwidth of memory is shameful for Lenovo engineers. Timing monstrous or shortage of 2 channels.

Normal. typical bandwidth for the 4-channel LPDDR4X 4266 is ~65 Gigabytes/s. This value is also typically for a 2-channel DDR5 4800 in the new SoC 2022 with Zen4/Alder Lake.

And engineers Lenovo (or marketers?)! Stop making a deputy power connector, sticking perpendicular to the case! Many people use often laptops on sofas and beds! The right-handers (and most on the planet!) the legs are in this case on the LEFT! This means that if the laptop is used in full power for SoC from the power supply, the connector is broken with power socker at the slightest failed foot movement nearby! Make an additional corner round power connector on the left or right, as it was before in normal laptops, on the rear edge itself or place the power socket back panel of notebook as old Thinkpad series! Do your engineers are so stupid so as not to understand this problem?!

Quote from: Serge on March 26, 2022, 15:45:24
With such display response times, it is barely usable without an external display. Everything will look like a blurry mess.

I just skimmed the review, so didn't even notice that. Yeah, it's bad. Granted, since it's Lenovo, you're playing the lotto, so you might get one far better, or one that's worse. Or yours might have bad PWM, or none, or it might be dim or bright, etc etc. Not really a fan of rolling the dice like that.

Quote from: postnut on March 25, 2022, 12:06:40

Quote from: vertigo on March 25, 2022, 05:59:53
The article states that it's dual-channel, not single-channel. It does seem unlikely the Intel variant is running in quad-channel, since AFAIK that requires four modules, and it only has two.

I highly doubt this has ECC RAM. That would cost too much for this laptop and price range, and the PSREF doesn't mention ECC.

to quote the article:
"Unlike the Intel SKU, which supports quad-channel RAM, the AMD model's RAM is dual-channel-only (see the AIDA64 Memory Benchmark results below for more details). "
that was just on the second paragraph of "Performance" section.
I don't think it's ECC either for the reasons you mentioned.
but I have no idea what else could eat so much bandwidth, when it is clearly running at 2X LPDDR4-4266, when non-pro equivalent Ryzen have no such issue. As Ryzen have ECC enable on processor for most of the line up, it's the first, and the only thing that came up on my head.

Thinkpads ARE available in non-pro, and in-fact this is the default option for many cheaper models(in Aus at least): ...I can't post link due to low post count...default e14 gen2 and gen3 are all non pro here.

Also in Aus some models of Lenovo laptops (thinkpad or not) are available with longer warranty, and I don't think IME is to do with the manufacturer? I wouldn't trust any IME from laptop manufacturer anyways..the battery size option is ok too compared to other brands in price category.(I do not live in the US, not many options)

Although I don't disagree with you on that ironically, the robust thinkpads that were superior to Intel macbooks of yesterday has become the thing that they died fighting: subjectively attractive machines that are fragile and unreliable.

not in market for a laptop, but what would you get if money was no object and you need a laptop for extended shifts?

Plugged in my USB keyboard to respond, b/c I didn't feel like typing all this with no space key like my last message :P

I think maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying, b/c the quote from the article that you used in your reply says dual-channel, not single-channel. But you're saying it said single-channel.

I stand corrected on the non-pro. I guess I just assumed the AMD variants would be the same as the Intel variants. When I was looking before TGL/Renoir, the only option was Comet Lake, which I didn't want b/c I wanted the extra GPU power of Ice Lake, but that wasn't available in the Thinkpads, at least not as far as I could tell, and my understanding was because Comet Lake was a Pro processor (vPro, etc), whereas Ice Lake wasn't.

IME = in my experience. And you can get the extended warranty from Lenovo, but to say I was seriously unimpressed with the warranty service I received, despite the fact I paid extra for the premier, on-site, next-day warranty, would be an understatement. It's why my computer is going back as soon as I get a replacement in place.

I know a lot of people feel the quality of Thinkpads has gone downhill over the years, especially since it changed from IBM to Lenovo, as well as with their attempts to compete with other OEMs, but I'd say the build quality is probably pretty comparable or maybe even slightly better than the X220 I had years ago. Then again, it's been a long time, so I don't remember too much other than I wasn't very impressed with it. A drop of a couple feet onto carpet cracked the display frame and the charging port (and a USB port maybe, but I don't remember) stopped worked after a couple years. My issues with my current one are related more to quality of the parts, drivers, and firmware.

Hard to say on your last question, and that's a really personal question, so any answer I'd give wouldn't really mean much since you and I might be looking for different things. It really depends on what you need/want in a laptop. I personally hate, hate, hate, hate, hate using a laptop without a TrackPoint, which is why I got this ThinkPad, despite my better judgement, and have since regretted that decision. In looking for a replacement, I looked at lots of options, including ThinkPads (though I'd be very hard-pressed at this point to take that risk again), and ultimately couldn't find anything worth spending the money on, so I'm just going to use a desktop for a while and lose the portability, which sucks, but maybe there will be something better next year. No matter what I get, it won't be ideal, b/c it'll either be a ThinkPad, which have proven to be problematic to say the least, or something without a TrackPoint and with a mediocre keyboard.

That said, if I had to get something right now, the leading contenders would probably be (in no particular order), the ASUS ExpertBook B9 or B3 Flip, the MSI Summit E13 or E14 Flip, the LG Gram, or one of the Dynabooks (X30J or something like that). There may be others, especially if price is no object (but, of course, it is), since there were one or two I looked at briefly then moved on because of the cost. I sort of like some of the HPs, but not really impressed with the company in my limited experience with them, and don't really care for Dells, since they tend to be very light on ports, do stupid stuff like soldered storage and small batteries, and they're known for running hot and having bad battery life.

I really like the idea of the Framework computer, but there are some issues I see with it and I'm always wary of getting a first generation product, plus if they go out of business, the whole point of the computer becomes a moot one. The final thing that made me decide against it, as I was seriously considering it, was the poor customer service. A company like that needs to excel in that regard, IMO, but they were pretty bad. The Acers actually seem pretty decent, too, but again, it really depends on your individual priorities for the design and performance of a computer.

With such display response times, it is barely usable without an external display. Everything will look like a blurry mess.

In any case, I see four packages in the picture. And I see four packages in the review of the Intel variant. It seems unlikely that they would share data lines (which would double ranks).

It is possible that Intel's controller really is quad-channel in the sense that it can address up to four channels and has 128 bit bus width. So, DDR4 is limited by bus width and you only have two channels, you can't have four (not enough data pins). And LPDDR4X is limited by channel count. The controller can't address eight separate channels. So, in order to get the same 128 bit bus width, they pair up the 16 bit channels to create 32 bit channels by sending the same address and command lines to them. And AMD could similarly group four 16 bit channels to create a 64 bit channel if their controller can address only two channels.

In a PC, 16 bit channels don't make that much sense as you mainly use 32 bit integers. If data is scattered around, four channels would give Intel an advantage. If data is accessed sequentially, it doesn't matter. You need the next number in line anyway. If it's scattered and you're working with 32 bit integers on a 64 bit bus, half the bus width is wasted (you always get 64 bits but you only need 32). It will also waste cache space as you store the whole line - you can't pick and choose the bits you want.

Quote from: postnut on March 25, 2022, 00:40:50
The statement about memory channels are obviously incorrect. No consumer x86 memory controller supports quad channel memory, and single-channel may exist for certain low end parts. But obviously not a mid-high end laptop processor, and -
The Ryzen processor here returned AIDA64 memory results greater than
theoretical bandwidth of single channel LPDDR4-4266. And for all the tools used showed memory controller operating in dual channel mode. (128bit or 2x64bit). It is slower than the Intel counterparts in actual memory bandwidth regardless.

As I already wrote, you're mistaken. Intel does specify their controller as quad-channel for LPDDR IIRC. It's strange that it reports 2x 64 b because LPDDR4X has, AFAIK, two 16 bit data buses. It used to be one 32 bit bus but they split it in two in LPDDR4. If it really is 128 bit, then I would expect to see 4x 32. Or perhaps 8x 16 if you wanted to count each independent data bus as a channel. But certainly not 2x 64. As there is no LPDDR with 64 bit bus width. It might be a software/ firmware glitch.

I do believe that in the official terminology a single LPDDR4 SDRAM package does have two independent 16 bit channels. Although I do believe that Intel is counting the whole package as a single 32 bit channel, not as two 16 bit channels. When they say quad, they mean 4x 32, which is equivalent to dual-channel DDR4 in terms of total bus width, and not 4x 16.

Quote from: vertigo on March 25, 2022, 05:59:53
The article states that it's dual-channel, not single-channel. It does seem unlikely the Intel variant is running in quad-channel, since AFAIK that requires four modules, and it only has two.

You have to distinguish DDR and LPDDR. LPDDR has half the bus width. Meaning, you need twice as many channels to get the same total bus width. IIRC, Intel says the memory controller is dual-channel DDR and quad-channel LPDDR. LPDDR is soldered, there are no modules.

Quote from: postnut on March 25, 2022, 12:06:40

Quote from: vertigo on March 25, 2022, 05:59:53
The article states that it's dual-channel, not single-channel. It does seem unlikely the Intel variant is running in quad-channel, since AFAIK that requires four modules, and it only has two.

I highly doubt this has ECC RAM. That would cost too much for this laptop and price range, and the PSREF doesn't mention ECC.

to quote the article:
"Unlike the Intel SKU, which supports quad-channel RAM, the AMD model's RAM is dual-channel-only (see the AIDA64 Memory Benchmark results below for more details). "
that was just on the second paragraph of "Performance" section.
I don't think it's ECC either for the reasons you mentioned.
but I have no idea what else could eat so much bandwidth, when it is clearly running at 2X LPDDR4-4266, when non-pro equivalent Ryzen have no such issue. As Ryzen have ECC enable on processor for most of the line up, it's the first, and the only thing that came up on my head.

Thinkpads ARE available in non-pro, and in-fact this is the default option for many cheaper models(in Aus at least): ...I can't post link due to low post count...default e14 gen2 and gen3 are all non pro here.

Also in Aus some models of Lenovo laptops (thinkpad or not) are available with longer warranty, and I don't think IME is to do with the manufacturer? I wouldn't trust any IME from laptop manufacturer anyways..the battery size option is ok too compared to other brands in price category.(I do not live in the US, not many options)

Although I don't disagree with you on that ironically, the robust thinkpads that were superior to Intel macbooks of yesterday has become the thing that they died fighting: subjectively attractive machines that are fragile and unreliable.

not in market for a laptop, but what would you get if money was no object and you need a laptop for extended shifts?

Honestly, a Dell Latitude 9520 with the 88wh battery. Even if Dell Consumer Support is bad, ProSupport is not. And parts are available either from Dell or some seller in eBay, parts-people or other sites, and they are somewhat easy to find if you have the Dell P/N for it.

HP has a s*** ton of software preinstalled even on their business lines, and Lenovo is a mess. They have so many Skus that is even funny how they even keep track of all of them, and on top of that, there's that stupid panel lottery they never cared to fix.

Quote from: vertigo on March 25, 2022, 05:59:53
The article states that it's dual-channel, not single-channel. It does seem unlikely the Intel variant is running in quad-channel, since AFAIK that requires four modules, and it only has two.

I highly doubt this has ECC RAM. That would cost too much for this laptop and price range, and the PSREF doesn't mention ECC.

to quote the article:
"Unlike the Intel SKU, which supports quad-channel RAM, the AMD model's RAM is dual-channel-only (see the AIDA64 Memory Benchmark results below for more details). "
that was just on the second paragraph of "Performance" section.
I don't think it's ECC either for the reasons you mentioned.
but I have no idea what else could eat so much bandwidth, when it is clearly running at 2X LPDDR4-4266, when non-pro equivalent Ryzen have no such issue. As Ryzen have ECC enable on processor for most of the line up, it's the first, and the only thing that came up on my head.

Thinkpads ARE available in non-pro, and in-fact this is the default option for many cheaper models(in Aus at least): ...I can't post link due to low post count...default e14 gen2 and gen3 are all non pro here.

Also in Aus some models of Lenovo laptops (thinkpad or not) are available with longer warranty, and I don't think IME is to do with the manufacturer? I wouldn't trust any IME from laptop manufacturer anyways..the battery size option is ok too compared to other brands in price category.(I do not live in the US, not many options)

Although I don't disagree with you on that ironically, the robust thinkpads that were superior to Intel macbooks of yesterday has become the thing that they died fighting: subjectively attractive machines that are fragile and unreliable.

not in market for a laptop, but what would you get if money was no object and you need a laptop for extended shifts?

Quote from: postnut on March 25, 2022, 00:40:50
The statement about memory channels are obviously incorrect. No consumer x86 memory controller supports quad channel memory, and single-channel may exist for certain low end parts. But obviously not a mid-high end laptop processor, and -
The Ryzen processor here returned AIDA64 memory results greater than
theoretical bandwidth of single channel LPDDR4-4266. And for all the tools used showed memory controller operating in dual channel mode. (128bit or 2x64bit). It is slower than the Intel counterparts in actual memory bandwidth regardless.
However, when switch to non-PRO equivalent, the 5800U, we get expected actual bandwidth. This and the fact that GPU-Z for 5850U returned a mess of information not comparable to 5800U, suggests that this laptop's memory is running with ECC, and that explains speed difference despite all running 2x4266MT.
Maybe it is possible to test if the memory is running with ECC? If not, or the ECC implementation is not working, then just buying a non-PRO sku might be a better choice instead.

The article states that it's dual-channel, not single-channel. It does seem unlikely the Intel variant is running in quad-channel, since AFAIK that requires four modules, and it only has two.

I highly doubt this has ECC RAM. That would cost too much for this laptop and price range, and the PSREF doesn't mention ECC.

Non-Pro SKUs aren't an option on ThinkPads. They're "business"* computers and so use the business (pro) CPUs for their security and management features.

*I don't consider them to be true business computers due to their, IME, poor reliability, stability, battery life, and warranty service.

The statement about memory channels are obviously incorrect. No consumer x86 memory controller supports quad channel memory, and single-channel may exist for certain low end parts. But obviously not a mid-high end laptop processor, and -
The Ryzen processor here returned AIDA64 memory results greater than
theoretical bandwidth of single channel LPDDR4-4266. And for all the tools used showed memory controller operating in dual channel mode. (128bit or 2x64bit). It is slower than the Intel counterparts in actual memory bandwidth regardless.
However, when switch to non-PRO equivalent, the 5800U, we get expected actual bandwidth. This and the fact that GPU-Z for 5850U returned a mess of information not comparable to 5800U, suggests that this laptop's memory is running with ECC, and that explains speed difference despite all running 2x4266MT.
Maybe it is possible to test if the memory is running with ECC? If not, or the ECC implementation is not working, then just buying a non-PRO sku might be a better choice instead.