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Topic Summary

Posted by: william blake
« on: March 09, 2020, 09:03:40 »

I cannot believe that the AMD 3xxx or even the newer 4xxx U parts have latency issues or x265 playback drops. I have a surface go with a slow Pentium Gold and x265 HDR 4K is played without issues on the screen (windows 10).
I can imagine that windows and / or the AMD drivers aren't well optimized, that I would accept. I had AMD a lot of years ago, the CPU were crazy good, the GPU drivers... garbage. I can accept that AMD still didn't improve it...
what the..
1. amd 3xxx media engine sucks.
2. amd 4xxx media engine is different and should be fine.
3. amd latency issues is the same thing as latency issues in intel server and hedt chips. low core count with no scalability-low latency. high core count-high latency. arch feature, not issue.
Posted by: A
« on: March 09, 2020, 08:29:22 »

@ProDigit - Wait... are you saying that work laptops have features that are useless for gaming and are only useful for work? SHOCKER! This just in, WATER IS WET! I repeat, water is wet!

@Rico Mico - AMD drivers are a ton better than they used to be once they got rid of catalyst mess. Early mobile Ryzen drivers were also a mess, but that comes with a new platform. That said, like all things, reporting of issues will always be a matter of adoption. The more people use something, the more feedback you get for issues and optimizations are made. Windows 10 was programmed with Intel in mind as they made up majority of the marketshare, hence why MS missed simple things like patches bricking AMD computers in the past.

But right now, Intel is having yield issues and AMD is now winning on performance. Hence MS decided to become serious about optimizing Windows 10 for AMD processors. So we should see a lot of improved performance in the coming year on certain operations.
Posted by: Rico Mico
« on: March 09, 2020, 07:46:18 »

I cannot believe that the AMD 3xxx or even the newer 4xxx U parts have latency issues or x265 playback drops. I have a surface go with a slow Pentium Gold and x265 HDR 4K is played without issues on the screen (windows 10).

I can imagine that windows and / or the AMD drivers aren't well optimized, that I would accept. I had AMD a lot of years ago, the CPU were crazy good, the GPU drivers... garbage. I can accept that AMD still didn't improve it...
Posted by: Ace
« on: March 09, 2020, 07:03:38 »

That will be the most useless feature ever! What are you going to use dpp for?
Gaming barely uses single precision (16bit), and half precision in other parts!
Double precision is only good for CAD design, or 3d modeling. Not games. It's just a waste of processing power
PRO processors are not intended for gaming, though.
Posted by: ProDigit
« on: March 09, 2020, 05:24:50 »

@william blake - Double-precision for the GPU, virtualization, security like TPM, official ECC memory support and etc.
That will be the most useless feature ever! What are you going to use dpp for?
Gaming barely uses single precision (16bit), and half precision in other parts!
Double precision is only good for CAD design, or 3d modeling. Not games. It's just a waste of processing power
Posted by: ProDigit
« on: March 09, 2020, 05:22:17 »

Careful, when you compare CPUs purely on their graphics capability!
Everyone knows Intel CPUs have worse graphics, but if you want to game, you'll get a decent dgpu. All other (desktop, 4k video) can be done just fine from an Intel chipset. And you'll be saving power in the process. Power that can be rerouted to CPU tasks which are more important for what most people use them for!

Posted by: A
« on: March 08, 2020, 22:58:15 »

@NikoB - the issues you speak of may be more related to Windows 10 then the latency. There have been plenty of demonstrations where same workload would be over 2X faster on linux than windows.

It is probably why Microsoft mentioned optimizing windows 10 for AMD as part of their Surface goals.
Posted by: Ej24
« on: March 08, 2020, 21:09:42 »

what the heck is "pro"?

It's amd answer to Intel v-pro cpu's. They're more oriented at large organizations that deploys hundreds of desktops and laptops. They offer more remote management options than regular systems.
Posted by: NikoB
« on: March 08, 2020, 18:53:00 »

Intel i5 8265U have latency around 70ns with DDR4 2400. My i5 8300H have 52ns with DDR4 2666. My old i5 [email protected] have 52ns with DDR3 1600.

Mobile U Zen+ have very bad latency for 2019 year. 119ns is awful! As mobile Intel i5 2010 year, i have it too.

The W10 opens windows with a visible lag (LTSC 1809 slightly faster, then Pro, although Zen+ has supposedly more optimizations since 1903) on 3500U, especially when it runs on a factory-locked 11-12W TDP.

i5 8300H is much, much faster at times! Despite the fact that 8300 wins about only around +35-40% vs 3500U with 11W TDP on synthetic benchmarks...
Posted by: william blake
« on: March 08, 2020, 18:30:57 »

The memory controller in Zen + is terrible in delays, the latency is more than 115ns (Intel had so many in 2010!), Versus 70-85ns for Intel's classmates.
2010=ddr3. ddr3 latency is lower by default.
zen+ memory controller is kinda ok :) , just the mesh bus is not the same as ring bus.
next, i agree amd decoder sucks(but the new decoder in renoir should be fine), laptop market sucks, and you are completely wrong about future amd vs intel products.
Posted by: NikoB
« on: March 08, 2020, 14:57:04 »

Ryzen The Ryzen 3 Series (on Zen +) drains Intel into a clean impulse load, exactly where it is needed most - office and surfing. The memory controller in Zen + is terrible in delays, the latency is more than 115ns (Intel had so many in 2010!), Versus 70-85ns for Intel's classmates.

But that is not all. Despite the fact that Intel still officially declares shameful HDMI 1.4b in Ice Lake (in 2020, when it is already obliged to install  HDMI2.1 and DP2.0, instead of DP1.4b!), And Ryzen have HDMI 2.0b from 2017, good it’s not enough, because Ryzen has at least 3200U-3500U (the most popular) have bad VP9/H265 decoder at 60fps starting from 2560x1440. This is tested by me in all major browsers without exception. Chrome/FireFox/Edge (as the fastest). Even in the case of Edge, still on the old, non-Chromium fastest engine, despite the absence of drops in the YouTube statistics, it is clearly seen that there are periodic micro-freezes and picture pulling/lagging. In the last Chrome, the drops go down the ramp already in [email protected] in VP9 codec, with allegedly working ok hardware acceleration according to the GPU statistics in W10 in Task Manager ("decode" graph is present and very load).

Moreover, the cpu part load (3500U on 11-12W TDP, due to the fact that Lenovo quietly underestimated it in the S340 series) is only 5-10% by Task Manager in W10 (at 1.4 GHz), but the load on Vega8 is monstrous and is above 65% of load on "Decode" graph! And although it does not override to 100%, there is still no smooth playback and have drops! And it with memory working in dual-channel mode (4 + 4GB)!
Even an attempt to play the well-known demos in [email protected] with HDR in H265 in MPC-BE through the MPC-BE built-in converter from HDR (Rec.2020) to SDR (Rec.709), leads to drops and a non-smooth picture, with loss frames.

If you unlock TDP in Ryzen Controller (ryzenadj) up to 15-16W, as the advertisement promises for 3200U-3500U, it still does not lead to the promised perfect play result. Neither with the latest Lenovo video drivers, nor from AMD. I tried all. On W10 Home/Pro and in LTSC(with VP9/H265 wrappers from MStore from VLD). Hardware decode work is ok by W10, but bad @60fps, from 2560x1440+.

At the same time, the memory in AIDA64 in the tests gives 32 Gb / s for reading, 33 for writing and 29.5-30 for copying with DDR2400 (4 + 4). For 3500U. Remember - latency for Zen+ - 115-120ns...

Thus, it can be recognized that Vega3-8 in the U series are not able to display all 4k content, only up to 30fps, no more.
-
Intel has even less bandwidth on the i3 8145U, but it plays [email protected] in VP9 on YouTube without any problems.
-

It turns out. As for the HDR content, Intel is blind (there is no HDMI 2.0b), and AMD is lame - there is HDMI 2.0b, but they deceived all their buyers of laptops with 15W TDP U-series processors in terms of the ability to watch 4k video at 60fps. Even [email protected] in VP9 Vega8 cannot play without drops at 15W TDP for SoC with last Chrome on 3500U.

If the new AMD series is, as promised, 20-25% faster by IPC than the 3rd (15W TDP vs 15W TDP), then it will only come close in performance to the old i5 8265U(Whiskey Lake). And if the memory controller is the same braking or there will be the same cant as the desktop Zen2, where the write speed to the memory is 2 times worse. than reading on all versions with one chiplet (up to 3800X inclusive), they will have nothing to cover, when Intel soon releases 10nm + already with HDMI 2.0b, then AMD will have absolutely nothing to cover further. Good times for AMD are ending again ...

It can get ahead of Intel if it makes working video decoders at the GTX1650 level up to 8k in 4: 4: 4. Finally, it will make integer scaling of the picture from 8k-> 4k-> fhd and get ahead of Intel by implementing DisplayPort 2.0 and HDMI 2.1 in all settings without exception, which will contribute to the flourishing of 8k monitors that everyone is looking forward to (for the sake of a perfect picture!) Connected via one DP2.0 cable

Intel IceLake have in SoC logic for Thunderbolt 3.0 and Wi-Fi6(AX). AMD not have.

Any laptop manufacturer can easily add support for 2 TB3.0 ports with IceLake by soldering a cheap PHY level on mainboard($5-10) and installing $7 AX201! Even on cheap laptops for $ 500!

But marketers of manufacturers (like Lenovo) even now are creating complete mess.

For example, in the new S340-15IIL series with i5 1035G1 (which costs around $ 550-600), they installed a fake USB-C, without TB3.0 and even without PD/DP1.2 support!  Not only that, they decided to make mock on customers in 2020 and soldered a miserable 4GB DDR2666 instead of the required 8Gb(soldered)+ 8Gb(in single slot for S340/540, instead 2 slots!) for all customers, which cost a penny!, while Ice Lake quietly supports DDR4 3200 and even 3733 for 32Gb+32Gb at top config! For this, you must literally kill marketers who tie their hands to engineers in R&D!
Posted by: william blake
« on: March 08, 2020, 06:29:02 »

Double-precision for the GPU, virtualization, security like TPM, official ECC memory support and etc.
i appreciate you are trying to educate me, but it only raizes more questions.
-are these features just disabled in ordinary ryzen but both silicons are the same?
-are these features fully available in every laptop with ryzen pro?
-how much extra money for "pro"?
-why a laptop with pro and non-ecc memory, is it half-pro or what?
and so on. very confusing hardware area for me. media is not very helpful also, seems like they are as noobish as i am.
Posted by: Jesse
« on: March 08, 2020, 03:39:31 »

As long as they run cooler and quieter, while being at least as fast, I'm sold.

I sure hope 16:10 aspect ratios become a thing again on ultrabooks and 15" lightweights.   It should go without saying that glossy screens should be a thing of the past as well.
Posted by: A
« on: March 07, 2020, 22:01:02 »

@william blake - Double-precision for the GPU, virtualization, security like TPM, official ECC memory support and etc.
Posted by: william blake
« on: March 07, 2020, 21:19:10 »

@william blake - Pro is enterprise features.
well..what the heck is "enterprise features"  :p
Ryzen 7 4xxxU will be the platform to buy for ultrabooks this year (hopefully with Thunderbolt 3).
ryzen 3,5,7,9 4xxxx will be the platform to buy this year.

 
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