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Posted by: hmpf
« on: February 22, 2020, 22:06:46 »

They aren't "the same" and it's not just about wattage. Due to manufacturing variations some chips are only good enough to work at a higher voltage with more cores enabled while others might have fewer working cores but be good enough to work at higher frequencies, and yet others are good enough to work at ultra-low-voltages. Same if you look at the 12,  16, 20core cpu's, a 12core cpu is just a 20core cpu with 8 cores "disabled", those 8 "disabled" cores might in reality be broken due to production-quality variations / manufacturing defects.

The 45W TDP cpu's, even though "same die according to spec" likely doesn't pass the testing at the lower voltages required to fit the lower power-envelope for the ULV-cpu's while still being able to run at the required frequency. if all chips could run at full speed at ultra-low-voltage they would likely just announce a huge breakthrough in power-savings to the industry..
of course they are binned. so what is you point? my 15/45w laptop will consume 0,5w more at idle than 15w? 1 fps less than 45w?
current 15w chips are unable to work at 45w? and vice versa?
this meme is ridiculous:(

That "insignificant" 0.5W you're talking about is the difference between for example 16h or 13.5h batterylife in a Thinkpad X395. that's 2.5hours difference and to me that's very significant difference.
Posted by: william blake
« on: February 22, 2020, 02:54:07 »

They aren't "the same" and it's not just about wattage. Due to manufacturing variations some chips are only good enough to work at a higher voltage with more cores enabled while others might have fewer working cores but be good enough to work at higher frequencies, and yet others are good enough to work at ultra-low-voltages. Same if you look at the 12,  16, 20core cpu's, a 12core cpu is just a 20core cpu with 8 cores "disabled", those 8 "disabled" cores might in reality be broken due to production-quality variations / manufacturing defects.

The 45W TDP cpu's, even though "same die according to spec" likely doesn't pass the testing at the lower voltages required to fit the lower power-envelope for the ULV-cpu's while still being able to run at the required frequency. if all chips could run at full speed at ultra-low-voltage they would likely just announce a huge breakthrough in power-savings to the industry..
of course they are binned. so what is you point? my 15/45w laptop will consume 0,5w more at idle than 15w? 1 fps less than 45w?
current 15w chips are unable to work at 45w? and vice versa?
this meme is ridiculous:(
Posted by: Pouya M.
« on: February 21, 2020, 21:46:43 »

I'd recommend having a look at the T480s, it has a relatively small chassis, however they fit a ginormous heatsink in it (basically you get a heatsink designed for dGPU on a system without one). The result? It's super quiet and cool when on the go, but when plugged into AC it switches to 45W/45W (as opposed to most laptops in the same league that do 25W/45W). And results are prominent! I get a full day of battery life (around 7ish hours) out of him, and it can ramup power when I need it too (it compiles in similar time with my 6th gen desktop CPU, where as my colleagues Lattitude with similar spec and less cooling struggles to do the same task in double the time!)

Was very disappointed to see they moved away from that in the T490s, it looks like I will be holding on to the T480s as long as I did with my T430...
Posted by: hmpf
« on: February 21, 2020, 09:16:53 »

The issue isn't a performance one like you suppose.  It is one of cooling/size/weight.  Cooling 45W is much harder than cooling 15W.  To do so effectively requires a bigger cooling system, and thus, a bigger laptop.
no worries, i know what im talking about. do you understand how small these 45w(cpu+gpu) laptops could be? 13 inches zenbook, vivobook, switch, envy, etc..1,2-1,3kg, they are all with 15w(12-35) cpu+discrete mx150/250, which is not less than 45w(35-54) cpu with igpu.
put h-renoir in it and give me a button to turn between 15 and 45 modes.

They aren't "the same" and it's not just about wattage. Due to manufacturing variations some chips are only good enough to work at a higher voltage with more cores enabled while others might have fewer working cores but be good enough to work at higher frequencies, and yet others are good enough to work at ultra-low-voltages. Same if you look at the 12,  16, 20core cpu's, a 12core cpu is just a 20core cpu with 8 cores "disabled", those 8 "disabled" cores might in reality be broken due to production-quality variations / manufacturing defects.

The 45W TDP cpu's, even though "same die according to spec" likely doesn't pass the testing at the lower voltages required to fit the lower power-envelope for the ULV-cpu's while still being able to run at the required frequency. if all chips could run at full speed at ultra-low-voltage they would likely just announce a huge breakthrough in power-savings to the industry..
Posted by: william blake
« on: February 21, 2020, 02:17:33 »

The issue isn't a performance one like you suppose.  It is one of cooling/size/weight.  Cooling 45W is much harder than cooling 15W.  To do so effectively requires a bigger cooling system, and thus, a bigger laptop.
no worries, i know what im talking about. do you understand how small these 45w(cpu+gpu) laptops could be? 13 inches zenbook, vivobook, switch, envy, etc..1,2-1,3kg, they are all with 15w(12-35) cpu+discrete mx150/250, which is not less than 45w(35-54) cpu with igpu.
put h-renoir in it and give me a button to turn between 15 and 45 modes.
Posted by: Joel Kleppinger
« on: February 21, 2020, 00:55:21 »

i want? we all want. 15-45w switch, software or button, who can say no?
these chips are the same, their bios settings are different, in case someone think they are manufactured differently.
where is a big waste, i dont get it?

The issue isn't a performance one like you suppose.  It is one of cooling/size/weight.  Cooling 45W is much harder than cooling 15W.  To do so effectively requires a bigger cooling system, and thus, a bigger laptop.

Much can be done within the 15W power envelope with its size/weight/battery-life advantages.  15W laptops are for the people happy with that compromise.

While others don't want to compromise performance.  They get the 45W CPU laptops.... and others still have 45W CPUs + 45W GPUs.

Some OEMs DO compromise the cooling system... effectively running 45W CPUs on 15W quality cooling systems.  And those are the laptops notebookcheck correctly pans since you think you are getting 45W performance, but really a 15W CPU is just as fast or even faster in such a system.
Posted by: william blake
« on: February 20, 2020, 23:44:06 »

Sounds like a pretty big waste to aim for an ultraportable business laptop with long baterylife and longing for a beefier CPU when it sounds like a P series is exactly what you want. Those come with 6-core 45W TDP cpu's as an option and they're even cheaper than the "ultraportable" X series.
i want? we all want. 15-45w switch, software or button, who can say no?
these chips are the same, their bios settings are different, in case someone think they are manufactured differently.
where is a big waste, i dont get it?
Posted by: hmpf
« on: February 20, 2020, 21:38:03 »

A huge power envelope is just totally useless for most users. It's way more important to have enough batterylife so you can comfortably use it for a full workday and still have at least a couple of hours left at the end of the day.
3 people out of 30 i know, carries their laptops all day or part of the day. the rest-stationary home machines or room-to-room home machines.
also, imagine 45w tdp skus with the ability working in 15w mode. all problems solved, you have power and mobility, depends on your wishes.

Sounds like a pretty big waste to aim for an ultraportable business laptop with long baterylife and longing for a beefier CPU when it sounds like a P series is exactly what you want. Those come with 6-core 45W TDP cpu's as an option and they're even cheaper than the "ultraportable" X series.
Posted by: william blake
« on: February 20, 2020, 21:00:04 »

A huge power envelope is just totally useless for most users. It's way more important to have enough batterylife so you can comfortably use it for a full workday and still have at least a couple of hours left at the end of the day.
3 people out of 30 i know, carries their laptops all day or part of the day. the rest-stationary home machines or room-to-room home machines.
also, imagine 45w tdp skus with the ability working in 15w mode. all problems solved, you have power and mobility, depends on your wishes.
Posted by: hmpf
« on: February 20, 2020, 20:15:29 »

I wish they would bring the new 35/45W AMD 4000H chips to Thinkpads. These low power chips are not for serious work.

"Real work" is definitely relative. I code in terminal, ssh to stuff and have a 120 tabs open in the browser.. I do plenty of work without almost any cpu requirements, but i need at least 16GB ram.

Add to the fact that most modern games are more GPU-heavy. But the issue arises if the laptop has just an FHD display, which then puts some load on the CPU as well.

I can totally understand why someone would want a 45W chip, though. It does allow some extra headroom for the CPU to flex its muscles. Laptops with ULV chips are sometimes designed so thin that the CPU's peak performance is not attainable due to thermals.

Games?, on X series?, come on.. There is no "one size fits all" laptop and physics puts a serious limit on how much power you can squeeze into the area.

45W is an insane amount of heat to dissipate in such a small chassis, and it would drain any reasonable battery in 1-2 hours. You're asking for the mobility-equivalent of a laptop from 2003, they also had 45W cpu's.
Meanwhile, a modern ULV-cpu sips away at 3-5W, and seemingly, ARM cpu's like in the lenovo yoga 5g would sip away at 1-3W.

A huge power envelope is just totally useless for most users. It's way more important to have enough batterylife so you can comfortably use it for a full workday and still have at least a couple of hours left at the end of the day.

In the x270 i have now I have an i7-7600U CPU and for 99.9% of what I do it's overpowered, and when "flexing it's muscles", it drains the battery way too fast. Even if it was two or three times as fast when "flexing it's muscles" it would still be way too slow to do the heavy lifting which might be needed, for that people generally use other tools..
Posted by: Vaidyanathan
« on: February 20, 2020, 19:25:44 »

Personally, I feel AMD should directly go for USB 4 support instead of Thunderbolt.
personally, i feel thunderbolt does suck. because they sell it like something very premium. thunderbolt 3 is how old, 5 years? its a freaking protocol with a freaking cheap chip or part of the chip.
so, i dont care about this crap anymore, it pisses me off. usb 3 is enough for me i guess, at least i can be sure it will cost 3 dollars for me not 100.

The external Titan Ridge controller requirement is no longer needed IIRC. Intel started integrating the controller on the CPU die itself from Ice Lake. This will be the new industry-standard design for all chipmakers with USB 4. So yeah, AMD will eventually start offering USB 4 support and not charge too high for it.
Posted by: Vaidyanathan
« on: February 20, 2020, 19:19:46 »

I wish they would bring the new 35/45W AMD 4000H chips to Thinkpads. These low power chips are not for serious work.

"Real work" is definitely relative. I code in terminal, ssh to stuff and have a 120 tabs open in the browser.. I do plenty of work without almost any cpu requirements, but i need at least 16GB ram.

Add to the fact that most modern games are more GPU-heavy. But the issue arises if the laptop has just an FHD display, which then puts some load on the CPU as well.

I can totally understand why someone would want a 45W chip, though. It does allow some extra headroom for the CPU to flex its muscles. Laptops with ULV chips are sometimes designed so thin that the CPU's peak performance is not attainable due to thermals.
Posted by: hmpf
« on: February 20, 2020, 18:37:20 »

I wish they would bring the new 35/45W AMD 4000H chips to Thinkpads. These low power chips are not for serious work.

"Real work" is definitely relative. I code in terminal, ssh to stuff and have a 120 tabs open in the browser.. I do plenty of work without almost any cpu requirements, but i need at least 16GB ram.

Batterylife is hugely important though, and builtin WWAN. Absolute effective minimum batterylife i can accept is 12h but somewhere above 16h effective use is preferred, like on my current x270 with 96Wh battery)..

The x270 is slightly too big for my taste, thickness almost doesn't matter at all and i've never understood the craze for millimeter-thin laptops, i'd rather have a machine that isn't so wide / deep..

I've held my hopes high for a slightly smaller X-series laptop, but it seems like they're just becoming larger and larger..
Posted by: william blake
« on: February 20, 2020, 17:52:43 »

Personally, I feel AMD should directly go for USB 4 support instead of Thunderbolt.
personally, i feel thunderbolt does suck. because they sell it like something very premium. thunderbolt 3 is how old, 5 years? its a freaking protocol with a freaking cheap chip or part of the chip.
so, i dont care about this crap anymore, it pisses me off. usb 3 is enough for me i guess, at least i can be sure it will cost 3 dollars for me not 100.
Posted by: Vaidyanathan
« on: February 20, 2020, 16:13:35 »

I fear they won't have touchpad buttons, Thunderbolt 3 and NVIDIA graphics - I need all 3 along with the AMD CPU.

Personally, I feel AMD should directly go for USB 4 support instead of Thunderbolt.

 
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