Quote from: A on Yesterday at 08:16:44not sure why you are comparing Borderlands 4 in specific vs GTA 5

It's just an example of popular games from different generations. I don't play either. Replace BL4 with almost any UE5 title (which the majority of games are built on now) and see if it makes any difference. Besides like 2 exceptions, it won't.

Yeah the game is poorly coded. But that's exactly my point. Games are getting coded worse and worse, which is almost nullifying any apu/igpu improvements...

Quote from: A on Yesterday at 08:16:44Anyone can play this game, 2013 Cryses 3 was 22fps on low with hd4000, 2013 Company of Heroes 2 was 10fps at low

It's about expectations too. 2 decades ago most were fine playing at 25 FPS @ 540p because most people had bad hardware (irrespective of it being pc or consoles). Then 60 FPS became more mainstream years later. Now high end, is 240 hz and even consoles are doing 100+ FPS @ 1440p gaming.

So yeah, just because 22 fps was fine back then does not mean it's fine now. Just like going back to TN panels now is difficult after experiencing OLED.

Quote from: A on Yesterday at 08:16:44is because of low yield numbers

And what's the excuse for no supply of z2 extreme for handhelds? Much smaller die size so defects shouldn't be as bad. They've had almost a year now to bin / disable hx370 parts. Should have plenty of supply by now.

For the reasons listed above, I lack faith in AMD and have zero excitement for 388. They're only doing it as a response to what will be coming next. (N1x, Snapdragon X elite gen 2, nova lake with Nvidia tiles, etc). They're almost always following and never do anything first. Even halo was just a response to apple silicon. Now they're following Nvidia to AI. It's like they've no vision or leadership. So frustrating.

Quote from: Young lad on Yesterday at 04:21:01Oh, I thought the majority of us had come to a common consensus on that one and had moved on. That it clearly hasn't met expectations and has been such a let down.

My guess is the reason for small amount of strix halo pickup for laptops is because of low yield numbers. This means not enough for big vendors to jump in, and the extra capacity is going to the small vendors making minipcs.

On a side note, there is more than 2 laptops but they are also unknown Chinese brands.

Of course it doesn't help that the biggest market for strix halo is AI, this makes it more interesting as a minipc to begin with than a laptop for most people.

Of course the fact that laptops with it cost over 2k isn't helping either. But as I mentioned, it was reported before that 388 and 392 is planned. The 388 will have 8 cores with same igpu which may make a laptop under 2k feasible.

But even if we ignore the strix halo, the ryzen 375 and 285H still have enough specs to run most modern games as 1080p at 30fps. I am not sure why you are comparing Borderlands 4 in specific vs GTA 5

Anyone can play this game, 2013 Cryses 3 was 22fps on low with hd4000, 2013 Company of Heroes 2 was 10fps at low

Quote from: A on Yesterday at 01:59:41strix halo

Oh, I thought the majority of us had come to a common consensus on that one and had moved on. That it clearly hasn't met expectations and has been such a let down.

2 laptops + couple of Chinese handhelds with dubious warranty support. Nothing it's in, actually sells in any meaningful volume.

Valve just straight up ignored it and went for something else. And that 1 product alone will likely outsell all those strix halo devices combined.

It's too heart-breaking for me to continue discussing halo apus on this site anymore, so I think I'll stop. I'm sure it will eventually get there but by that time idk if I will bother even caring about it.

Let the AI crowd have it, we don't want the chip anymore lol.

Quote from: Young lad on Yesterday at 01:22:03I disagree with the notion that it was only until very recently that igpus could game. I don't know where this is coming from.

There are videos of people playing GTA V on hd 3000/4000 at 30fps 720p on low. That's pretty much x360/PS3 experience. These videos are back from 2013 era btw.

And today? apu's can run borderlands 4 720p, low settings at 30-40 FPS. So the experience hasn't changed all that much.

It's not that apu's suddenly got better. They rose in popularity as a replacement for budget dgpus because both Nvidia and AMD pretty much refuse to make them anymore.

APUs did get much better, hence why low end GPUs went dead. But it is also in part because high end gaming aimed for 4k which allowed igpus to run stuff at lower resolutions.

Modern apus can do even 60fps on modern games at ultra settings. Borderlands 4 is just an example of poor coding and some stuff are cpu bound too. But strix halo can still get 55fps on it at 1080p looking at benchmarks

I disagree with the notion that it was only until very recently that igpus could game. I don't know where this is coming from.

There are videos of people playing GTA V on hd 3000/4000 at 30fps 720p on low. That's pretty much x360/PS3 experience. These videos are back from 2013 era btw.

And today? apu's can run borderlands 4 720p, low settings at 30-40 FPS. So the experience hasn't changed all that much.

It's not that apu's suddenly got better. They rose in popularity as a replacement for budget dgpus because both Nvidia and AMD pretty much refuse to make them anymore.

Quote from: GeorgeS on November 17, 2025, 01:34:22LOL!! Strix Halo in a Handheld!?!?! LOL!! Sure some folks are doing it and with obvious huge power, heat & size requirements. (not counting the dismal battery run time!)

Huge cost? SURE.

I'm talking < $600 and more then "handhelds" but laptops and tablets!

Look for Strix Halo in devices costing NORTH > $2000 and surely NOT in devices that compete with PlayStation or Xboxes.

Is AMD pairing their BEST iGPU's with CPU's bound for 'ultrabook' devices? No.
Is AMD pairing their BEST iGPU's with CPU's bound for sub $1000 devices? No.

However, rather comically AMD's BEST iGPU's are more likely to be found in devices that WILL BE paired with a DGPU (making the iGPU redundant/useless).

The point is that AMD allows such stuff, they aren't setting any restrictions on where it can be used.

The 388 that is supposedly suppose to come out soon will pair the best igpu with less hungry 8 core processor. And since we have seen 395 minipc go for 1.4k on a deal, a 388 for 1k on a deal is possible

Do you mean you want one with 5c cores?

But don't expect miracles, the strix halo is larger to begin with, the best igpu itself will use a lot of power.

If I remember correctly, if you want to pair a strix halo with a dgpu, you either have to settle for 4x pcie, or 8x if you don't support anything else(wifi, usb and etc) due to limitation of lanes

Either way, I don't think AMD is holding anything back, strix halo in itself seems to be fairly low production for now.

Quote from: Young lad on November 17, 2025, 08:01:15

Quote from: GeorgeS on November 17, 2025, 01:34:22huge power, heat & size requirements.

You're not going excel in any of these categories unless you go arm.

Quote from: GeorgeS on November 17, 2025, 01:34:22I'm talking < $600

Which OEM / vendor is able to sell a single product in the 10's of millions and has a large enough or near monopoly like software library ecosystem? Because that's what would be required in order to carry out what you're on about. That level of economy of scale and subsidization.

Very few companies with the ability, even less willing to. There's no customer which is why the answer is 'NO' every time.

The answers are no because of sales & marketing, not economies of scale.

A NEW off the shelf basic computer can be had for ~$150-300. Today in 2025 everyday.

However the above computer does not have high enough specifications to play AAA games. For "games" you'll need a $300-600 computer.

Again however until fairly recently the $300-600 price point that can play games would get you a 'console gaming system' only as the GPU's (read iGPU's) included at this price point were fairly to completely useless for playing games.

In the past to play games on a computer you required a dGPU which pushed the price of the computer generally over $1000.

However if the last few years have taught us anything, is that AMD and now even Intel can include a decent enough iGPU in their APU's where a dGPU is not required to play games at medium to low settings.

These APU's are finding their way into "mini-PCs" costing <=$700. It is only a matter of time for devices with "usable" iGPU's trickle down to the lower price points of the market.

Sure, OEM's really do not want to give up the premium price fixing on anything "gaming" as they have enjoyed the "able to play games" cash cow for decades.

Quote from: GeorgeS on November 17, 2025, 01:34:22huge power, heat & size requirements.

You're not going excel in any of these categories unless you go arm.

Quote from: GeorgeS on November 17, 2025, 01:34:22I'm talking < $600

Which OEM / vendor is able to sell a single product in the 10's of millions and has a large enough or near monopoly like software library ecosystem? Because that's what would be required in order to carry out what you're on about. That level of economy of scale and subsidization.

Very few companies with the ability, even less willing to. There's no customer which is why the answer is 'NO' every time.

Quote from: A on November 17, 2025, 00:54:51

Quote from: GeorgeS on November 16, 2025, 19:53:10IMHO: This actually might prove interesting...

assuming that AMD might be 'gimped' in the products they release because of agreements they have with Sony, Microsoft & even Valve, Intel had no competitive iGPU IP at the time of Xbox & Playstation (or even Steam Deck) design so are late to the party.

Here if they are coupling a decently powerful & usable iGPU with an affordable CPU stack Intel MIGHT be able to capture some market share.

IMHO: in 2025/2026 there ought to be plenty of mobile/portable devices costing < $400 - $600 that can play PC games. (outfitted with decent iGPU's)

Why would AMD be gimped due to agreements? We already have seen as far as handhelds with hx370 to strix halo. Of course they aren't cheap but they are there. And likely cheaper strix halo and then there is gorgon point which will all likely end up in handsets.

LOL!! Strix Halo in a Handheld!?!?! LOL!! Sure some folks are doing it and with obvious huge power, heat & size requirements. (not counting the dismal battery run time!)

Huge cost? SURE.

I'm talking < $600 and more then "handhelds" but laptops and tablets!

Look for Strix Halo in devices costing NORTH > $2000 and surely NOT in devices that compete with PlayStation or Xboxes.

Is AMD pairing their BEST iGPU's with CPU's bound for 'ultrabook' devices? No.
Is AMD pairing their BEST iGPU's with CPU's bound for sub $1000 devices? No.

However, rather comically AMD's BEST iGPU's are more likely to be found in devices that WILL BE paired with a DGPU (making the iGPU redundant/useless).

Quote from: GeorgeS on November 16, 2025, 19:53:10IMHO: This actually might prove interesting...

assuming that AMD might be 'gimped' in the products they release because of agreements they have with Sony, Microsoft & even Valve, Intel had no competitive iGPU IP at the time of Xbox & Playstation (or even Steam Deck) design so are late to the party.

Here if they are coupling a decently powerful & usable iGPU with an affordable CPU stack Intel MIGHT be able to capture some market share.

IMHO: in 2025/2026 there ought to be plenty of mobile/portable devices costing < $400 - $600 that can play PC games. (outfitted with decent iGPU's)

Why would AMD be gimped due to agreements? We already have seen as far as handhelds with hx370 to strix halo. Of course they aren't cheap but they are there. And likely cheaper strix halo and then there is gorgon point which will all likely end up in handsets.

IMHO: This actually might prove interesting...

assuming that AMD might be 'gimped' in the products they release because of agreements they have with Sony, Microsoft & even Valve, Intel had no competitive iGPU IP at the time of Xbox & Playstation (or even Steam Deck) design so are late to the party.

Here if they are coupling a decently powerful & usable iGPU with an affordable CPU stack Intel MIGHT be able to capture some market share.

IMHO: in 2025/2026 there ought to be plenty of mobile/portable devices costing < $400 - $600 that can play PC games. (outfitted with decent iGPU's)