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Posted by john_the_clown
 - May 22, 2024, 22:56:30
I'm most interested to see (if) AVX instructions are supported. This is a requirement on many modern games and AFAIK none of the games listed in any tests require AVX instructions - this is a big issue in apple silicon MacOS with Wine being unable to run any games with AVX instructions due to ARM licensing limitations.  Would definitely hold off on ARM based computers if this isn't addressed, I really hope it will be. 
Posted by George
 - May 22, 2024, 19:47:32
While it is good to see that MS is working on getting Windows Games on ARM IMHO:

- the <= 60 FPS comes from Console gaming, some titles are fine at 30FPS, others not so much
- WIN11 "bloatware", forgetting the "features" that turn themselves back on just peek at the size of the KERNEL!! Every version of WIN has a larger kernel footprint then the previous version.

"Stock" WIN has countless 'services' running that the end user may (and likely WON'T) have any need or use for. I generally expect & set aside 1-2hrs for every new WIN powered device to 'clean up' the OS.

Granted IDK what others are currently experiencing with their new PC's, there was a time in the not to distant past that it might of required ALL DAY to rid your new PC of ALL THE BLOATWARE the OEM had included on it.

My WINBoxes run in VERY sheltered environments. They only get powered up to run a program *I* need (only runs on WIN) and only get LAN/WAN access when I wish to install a new Steam Game.

Many of use want to simply USE our computers and NOT constantly FIGHT Microsoft over what is running (or NOT!) on it!

Posted by Hotz
 - May 22, 2024, 17:06:37
Quote from: RobertJasiek on May 22, 2024, 13:50:48
Quote from: Neenyah on May 22, 2024, 13:13:29ShutUp10++

If this is your level of configuration, you fail. One needs to configure without using softwares


Honestly, I think it's OK to use it. Windows 10+ has become a nightmare to configure for privacy. Windows 7 was the last one where configuration was still possible for the Average Joe without any deepdiving. But afterwards that was over. While I'm not too happy about using a 3rd party tool, it gets the Job done fairly quick and easy.

Yes, a Windows Update may disable some settings again, but you just have to remember to execute ShutUp10++ afterwards to recheck your settings. For private users I would also recommend to do Windows Updates only manually every couple of months, so they have "peace" in the meantime.
Posted by Neenyah
 - May 22, 2024, 16:01:23
Quote from: RobertJasiek on May 22, 2024, 15:44:44Surely I do not know everything... Please explain why unicast response should be deactivated!
I'm outside currently on a phone so I will, for now, reply only on this here. Check this thread - https://www.reddit.com/r/networking/comments/6mejze/benefit_of_prohibiting_unicast_response_to/ - top comment specifically which explains it efficiently in a couple of words.
Posted by RobertJasiek
 - May 22, 2024, 15:44:44
Windows Defender is a two-sided thing: it has some useful features (incl., as you mention, now also coupled with the Windows Firewall) and some bad features (telemetry).

QuoteYou also didn't block unicast response which is mandatory to do in (Windows Defender) Firewall (it's "yes" by default). Outbound connections go on block all, allow only necessary stuff.

Surely I do not know everything... Please explain why unicast response should be deactivated!

QuoteI'm really not sure why are you against SU10++

You have described it as being useless because much is undone by Windows quickly. Not so with my manual settings: almost all of them have been permanent for years, except for some major Windows updates, especially during the early Windows 10 years or when fresh installing Windows 11 over Windows 10.

QuoteI mean Microsoft is still uncapable to fix KB5034441 in Windows 10 for 7 months at this point and if you want to manually fix it there's a high probability to brick your whole Win10 installation.

Indeed, I have also been suffering on my W10 PC.
Posted by Neenyah
 - May 22, 2024, 14:11:27
Quote from: RobertJasiek on May 22, 2024, 13:50:48
Quote from: Neenyah on May 22, 2024, 13:13:29ShutUp10++

If this is your level of configuration, you fail. One needs to configure without using softwares (other than scripts collecting what otherwise would be done manually). For starters, see

home.snafu.de/jasiek/Windows10Telemetry.html
SU10++ does exactly that though, all at once instead of doing it manually 🤷�♂️ Why would you disable Windows Defender btw? The single most useful thing in Windows (both 10 and 11). With it disabled you have disabled most Windows Defender Firewall (that's the name, yes) settings including added outbound customizations. You also didn't block unicast response which is mandatory to do in (Windows Defender) Firewall (it's "yes" by default). Outbound connections go on block all, allow only necessary stuff. The rest is very good but I'm really not sure why are you against SU10++ when it literally does exactly the same thing except disabling Defender and tinkering around Firewall.

Quote from: RobertJasiek on May 22, 2024, 13:50:48Such bugs in Windows are rare but there have been exceptional intentional code changes:

- during some major updates when Windows changes its appended name, such as 23H2
- the task scheduler's top level tasks tend to be reactivated unasked
They are rare but they happen. I mean Microsoft is still uncapable to fix KB5034441 in Windows 10 for 7 months at this point and if you want to manually fix it there's a high probability to brick your whole Win10 installation.

Quote from: RobertJasiek on May 22, 2024, 14:00:11
Quote from: Neenyah on May 22, 2024, 13:45:01it can't be turned off at all: www.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/copilot-plus-pcs?r=1#faq2

This page describes only one threat of impossible turn-off: "On devices that are not powered by a Snapdragon® X Series processor, installation of a Windows update will be required to run Recall."
Yes, this article is about Snapdragon Elite and Plus so I'm talking about - the Snapdragon Elite and Plus features 🤔 Recall is coming to ARM chips with 40+ TOPS.
Posted by RobertJasiek
 - May 22, 2024, 14:00:11
Quote from: Neenyah on May 22, 2024, 13:45:01it can't be turned off at all: www.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/copilot-plus-pcs?r=1#faq2

This page describes only one threat of impossible turn-off: "On devices that are not powered by a Snapdragon® X Series processor, installation of a Windows update will be required to run Recall."

This would mean that Recall might be deactivated whenever a Windows update is not being installed.

Even so, when forced on us, I will check whether Recall Windows Services can be deactivated permanently.
Posted by Ccds
 - May 22, 2024, 13:58:22
Some of your complaints are weird 60+fps is playable, even 30fps is fine for an fps game.
Posted by RobertJasiek
 - May 22, 2024, 13:50:48
Quote from: Neenyah on May 22, 2024, 13:13:29ShutUp10++

If this is your level of configuration, you fail. One needs to configure without using softwares (other than scripts collecting what otherwise would be done manually). For starters, see

home.snafu.de/jasiek/Windows10Telemetry.html

Windows 11 needs (just) a few more settings, which I have not compiled on a webpage yet.

QuoteIt can be turned off, it can't be removed so it stays there in the OS, thus again - literal definition of a bloat.

By that definition, indeed (for most things).

QuoteAnd "bug" will happen sooner or later when it will activate itself on its own after a random update,

Such bugs in Windows are rare but there have been exceptional intentional code changes:

- during some major updates when Windows changes its appended name, such as 23H2
- the task scheduler's top level tasks tend to be reactivated unasked

Quotesimilar to Apple's recent bug of restoring long-deleted photos on iPhones and iPads.

I do not recall such a Windows bug for Windows Vista to 11. (There were the CPU bugs Meltdown, Spectre etc. though.)

Posted by Neenyah
 - May 22, 2024, 13:45:01
Quote from: Neenyah on May 22, 2024, 13:13:29
Quote from: RobertJasiek on May 22, 2024, 13:01:14We need to await whether this can be deactivated by deactivating one or several Windows Services, group policy object settings or GUI settings. So far, nobody could say anything about such, if any, possibilities.
It can be turned off, it can't be removed so it stays there in the OS...

Ok, so about this - it can't be turned off at all: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/copilot-plus-pcs?r=1#faq2

It's possible to just turn off some parts of logging or temporarily pause logging, but it's always active. Try to debloat that.
Posted by Neenyah
 - May 22, 2024, 13:13:29
Quote from: RobertJasiek on May 22, 2024, 13:01:14IYO, what bloat remains after your (insufficient?) debloating efforts?
The fact that you have to do various kinds of workarounds to use local account on installation ([email protected] still works in 24H2, tried it yesterday) is a forced bloat on its own. There is simply too much to list because everything not needed to operate is a bloat by definition. Tracking users' activities is a bloat; you can use ShutUp10++ and disable everything and W11 will still enable options on another update (literal bloat) so you have to disable them again just for some of them to still stay active (which you can verify with netstat -a and see what's calling where).


Quote from: RobertJasiek on May 22, 2024, 13:01:14We need to await whether this can be deactivated by deactivating one or several Windows Services, group policy object settings or GUI settings. So far, nobody could say anything about such, if any, possibilities.
It can be turned off, it can't be removed so it stays there in the OS, thus again - literal definition of a bloat. And "bug" will happen sooner or later when it will activate itself on its own after a random update, similar to Apple's recent bug of restoring long-deleted photos on iPhones and iPads. "It's just a bug."

Quote from: Hotz on May 22, 2024, 13:11:29Haven't looked up anything else, but these many incompatibilities are exactly the reason why I wouldn't buy a Qualcomm PC now. This surely needs to mature first.
Yep, this. Or simply use Linux once the updated kernel is ready (and Qualcomm works on that). Until we see reviews this seems like a perfect Linux chip but far from perfect Windows chip, that alone says more about the OS than the chip though.
Posted by Hotz
 - May 22, 2024, 13:11:29
Also... Half-Life 2 -> Unplayable.

which otherwise runs on every Linux system, and potato computers.


Haven't looked up anything else, but these many incompatibilities are exactly the reason why I wouldn't buy a Qualcomm PC now. This surely needs to mature first.
Posted by Neenyah
 - May 22, 2024, 13:03:19
Just checked the site, for some of the games I actively play. People have a very loose definition of "perfect".

For example:


Both are clearly not playable at that level of performance, especially not Counter Strike 2 where frame timings are horrendous and average od 75 is around 20 fps 1% lows. There is more but I'm lazy to keep listing because it's all 20-50 fps nonsense categorized as "perfect". Right...

Posted by RobertJasiek
 - May 22, 2024, 13:01:14
Quote from: Neenyah on May 22, 2024, 12:41:42Windows 11 [is] extremely bloated even if you debloat everything down to nothing

IYO, what bloat remains after your (insufficient?) debloating efforts?

QuoteRecall [...] 'AI Explorer,' [...] will be bloated even more like it or not.

We need to await whether this can be deactivated by deactivating one or several Windows Services, group policy object settings or GUI settings. So far, nobody could say anything about such, if any, possibilities.
Posted by Neenyah
 - May 22, 2024, 12:41:42
Quote from: RobertJasiek on May 22, 2024, 12:12:53
Quote from: Im not steve on May 22, 2024, 10:28:47windows is a bloated OS.

Not all versions of Windows have bloatware and Index / Windows Search but current consumer versions have some. That does not mean that Windows is bloated but it means that the out-of-box experience is. Spend an hour for settings and the bloatware is gone.

...

Once bloat- and crapwares are tamed, Windows is fast. As fast as XP or Windows 7.

While this is bad for sure, do not misinform people by exaggerating description!
This article is about the upcoming Snapdragon SoCs; the X Elite (and Plus) ARM chips work only with Windows 11 (and with Linux) so the fact that older Windows versions aren't much bloated is of not much help in this case here.

All Windows 11 options are extremely bloated even if you debloat everything down to nothing, even Tiny11 (which is spyware) is bloated more than Windows 10 Home stock variant. And then with 24H2 there is even more bloat coming, including implemented malware straight from Microsoft themselves:

https://x.com/ripcache/status/1792972157464748243

https://www.techradar.com/computing/windows/microsoft-reveals-ai-powered-recall-feature-to-transform-windows-11s-searchability-while-confirming-hardware-requirements

"So, how does Recall work?

In the past we've seen reports of a rumored feature, often referred to as 'AI Explorer,' that would enable you to search through your past activity on your PC. It looks like this has manifested as the Recall feature, and it'll be privy to all the activity on your PC including what apps you use, how you use those apps, and what you do in them (for example, conversations in WhatsApp). Recall will record all of this activity going forward, saving snapshots of it in your PC's local storage."

So yes, it is extremely bloated and it will be bloated even more like it or not.