For example, Samsung LTN154P4-L01 is better in horizontal viewing angles than LG LP154WF4-SPH1 (60% NTSC), and the text is more monolithic for eyes than on this IPS with a much greater resolution ...

Quote from: NikoB on July 20, 2022, 16:20:10because. often horizontal viewing angles are worse than on expensive TN matrices of the past.

There are >1000 observed laptops on this website. Could you provide with at least one example where a TN panel has a better horizontal viewing angle than an IPS panel? I bet no, 'cause this is bs.

My eyes just bleed when I am looking at a TN panel. Go to a big retailer, like Mediamarkt, and look at rows of different models. The heuristic is simple: if the screen looks crappy - it's a TN, the ones with IPS clearly stand out as you can see the picture from all angles. In contrast, all TN laptops appear to show some blurry bleak blobs, tell me more about great TN panels then.

Quote from: Hunter2020 on July 18, 2022, 17:33:37OEM stopped using TN panels because they ALL dim the screen by PWM.  Consumers are conscious and very wary of PWM today which is why no OEM dares use them.  The Fujitsu TN laptop above is no exception, but still kicks the Huawei IPS laptop's butt even in the presence of PWM!  Of course, I prefer using the non-flickering laptop, but wrt image quality the IPS screen cannot compare!

Without exception, all IPS, like TN, use PWM. This is easily verified by the panel datasheets. Usually up to 30 kHz. Depends on how the laptop manufacturer sets it up at the factory. If PWM at a high frequency is much higher than 1kHz even at 5% brightness, there are no problems for the eyes.

But all AMOLEDs flicker vilely at 50-250Hz, and those where they allegedly increase the frequency to 300-600Hz with the accompanying "dc-dimming", the native contrast drops sharply there and there is no stone left unturned from the most key advantage of AMOLED over IPS/xVA .

TN is clearly more pleasing to the eye when reading text at a resolution close to IPS/VA. But it time is gone. Although the current cheap "IPS" panel with 45-46% NTSC are a real shame for the panel building industry, because. often horizontal viewing angles are worse than on expensive TN matrices of the past. Well, there's nothing to say about the shameful color space this "IPS" fake ...

Alas, 90%+ of consumers, which is amazing, looking at such shameful matrices in laptops and at the same time looking at luxurious panels in smartphones, where there are practically no panels below 72% NTSC even in cheap models, do not notice a striking difference in color space. Apparently most of the world's population is color blind. And therefore, marketers skillfully brought them into this situation with shameful 45-46% NTSC panels. :(

Quote from: _MT_ on July 19, 2022, 19:38:43I usually just buy what I need but soldered RAM does limit my options

The only option when I am both for soldered memory is if it is HBM with a bandwidth of 200 Gb / s. And at least 32GB in a laptop. Then no questions. Otherwise, Display Port 2.0 is too heavy for iGpu. And that's why the shameful manufacturers of discrete video chips dragged on for 3 years with the introduction of DP2.0 hardware with native support for chic 8k monitors (matrices have been available for a long time, since 2014, but the connection was crooked on several DP1.2-1.4 ports), I don't understand at all clear. Unlike DDR4 / 5 brake memory, video chips use fast GDDR5 / 6 and HBM 2.0, which even 10 years ago had enough bandwidth to service 8k monitors even then (but 8k matrices appeared only in 2013-2014 and there were no still DP2.0 standard).

This is the only cool improvement in Zen4 (it's the first officially DP2.0 certified) and apparently in GTX4xxx in recent years.

For the first time in history, the IT industry, especially NVidia and AMD with their discrete cards, have blunted for 3 whole years with DP2.0! Shame on their management and engineers with such a monstrous delay!

Quote from: Barebooh on July 19, 2022, 13:15:31Oh, I bet your DDR4-2400 sticks from 2017 are super useful right now. Yeah. At least you can always 'upgrade' that crusty, scratched up laptop you have, with its dead battery, cracked hinges and its worn-down keycaps. Splendid.

Even a unit from 2006 which I keep out of sentiment doesn't have dead battery, cracked hinges or worn-down keycaps. The only sign of wear is along the seam between upper and lower parts of the main body where the surface finish got worn a bit, perhaps as a result of being exposed to sweat from palms. Keyboard is in excellent condition and modern laptops can only dream of having a keyboard that good. Back in the day, I liked it more than many premium desktop keyboards. To be fair, I guess the backlight isn't as strong as it used to be. It was dim even when new by today's standards, that's for sure. And that's a laptop I carried every day to school and then university for several years. Back then, premium money got you premium hardware.

I usually just buy what I need but soldered RAM does limit my options, it makes my negotiating position weaker and I tend to have unusual tastes and often hit limits of available configurations - e.g. you want more RAM and not only is it ridiculously expensive (e.g. 500 % of a SODIMM module), you also have to buy an overpriced CPU (€500 extra instead of manufacturer-suggested €100) that you'd never choose. Or worse, there is no such option short of manually swapping chips. In the end, I might overpay a grand (or two) on a laptop. I don't find that funny. I know better ways to spend a thousand euro. I really hate being taken for a ride. Which then leads to me buying as few devices as I can, keeping them for as long as I can.

Quote from: Barebooh on July 19, 2022, 06:30:05

Quote from: Frog on July 19, 2022, 00:11:20and will not buy a laptop with soldered RAM, either.

We know avg. lifespan of SDRAM sticks to be ~2 years, verbatim. After that, either a generation shifts (DDR4 -> DDR5), or they become way faster (DDR-2667 -> DDR4-3200). Old ones turn to paperweight, or more specifically, electronic waste.
A whole stick (and a socket!) instead of just 4 tiny chips? And what did that accomplish?..

It accomplished the offering of consumer choice. You want soldered chips? You can have them. Lots of excessively thin devices have that, like phones and tablets and super thin laptops. No one is stopping you.

Memory density also increases. I went from 4GB to 8GB to 16GB on my 2011 laptop, which helped me to use it far longer than I had imagined. At the time when I bought the laptop, I couldn't find 8GB sticks and the max I could do was 8GB total.

But also improvements in memory timing and voltage were important. I went from DDR3 to DDR3L and gained some battery life. I upgraded my DDR4 to performance DDR4 and improved my computer's performance.

Having RAM soldered just means that big businesses have more degrees of freedom to monetize upgrades and you will be happy because you have no choice.

Quote from: _MT_ on July 19, 2022, 09:17:40

Quote from: Barebooh on July 19, 2022, 06:30:05We know avg. lifespan of SDRAM sticks to be ~2 years, verbatim. After that, either a generation shifts (DDR4 -> DDR5), or they become way faster (DDR-2667 -> DDR4-3200). Old ones turn to paperweight, or more specifically, electronic waste.

A whole stick (and a socket!) instead of just 4 tiny chips? And what did that accomplish?..

If you want to keep using a platform, new developments are irrelevant. Given that processors in laptops are practically universally soldered. Taking advantage of a newer, faster RAM would involve at the very least a new motherboard/ processor. Which typically means a whole new laptop. You're either replacing a faulty module or increasing capacity.

Don't forget a lot of mini PCs, such as the NUC type, also use laptop parts.  Many of these can use faster RAM with a bios update.  Many require buying RAM as well. Some resellers will add the RAM in, but you pay dearly for it, which leads to your next comment ...

QuoteThe primary benefit is that you have the option of buying the cheapest memory configuration and replacing it with an aftermarket kit if the factory option is too expensive (and you can't negotiate a sufficient discount) or not available at all (you're still at the mercy of BIOS). Once it's soldered, you have to accept their price and configuration limitations or buy something else. And see how Apple or Microsoft gouge their customers on what should be trivial and cheap upgrades. The end result is that most people buy quite basic configurations and the poor schmucks that need the extra hardware have to pay dearly for it (if it's available at all). Of course, it seems that some people like being gouged and encourage the practice (by buying it).

I often will upgrade the RAM if it's not soldered on. I too hate soldered RAM. I saved a couple hundred buying the RAM on my own vs having the OEM do it. Downside now is I have 2 SO-DIMMs sitting around doing nothing, but I digress.

A lot of laptops will support faster RAM unofficially. When I upgraded my Acer Predator Helios, it shipped with cheap and slow DDR4, but I upgraded it to DDR4-3200 and it recognized it and configured itself to the SPD timings on the module.

As I've always told people, if you plan on keeping the laptop for awhile, always buy more than you need now. If you swap every year or 2, you can buy just what you need then. But 3-4 years down the road, that cheap laptop's going to be sucking wind as new software continues to bloat and suck more resources.

Oh, I bet your DDR4-2400 sticks from 2017 are super useful right now. Yeah. At least you can always 'upgrade' that crusty, scratched up laptop you have, with its dead battery, cracked hinges and its worn-down keycaps. Splendid.

Quote from: Barebooh on July 19, 2022, 06:30:05We know avg. lifespan of SDRAM sticks to be ~2 years, verbatim. After that, either a generation shifts (DDR4 -> DDR5), or they become way faster (DDR-2667 -> DDR4-3200). Old ones turn to paperweight, or more specifically, electronic waste.
A whole stick (and a socket!) instead of just 4 tiny chips? And what did that accomplish?..

If you want to keep using a platform, new developments are irrelevant. Given that processors in laptops are practically universally soldered. Taking advantage of a newer, faster RAM would involve at the very least a new motherboard/ processor. Which typically means a whole new laptop. You're either replacing a faulty module or increasing capacity.

The primary benefit is that you have the option of buying the cheapest memory configuration and replacing it with an aftermarket kit if the factory option is too expensive (and you can't negotiate a sufficient discount) or not available at all (you're still at the mercy of BIOS). Once it's soldered, you have to accept their price and configuration limitations or buy something else. And see how Apple or Microsoft gouge their customers on what should be trivial and cheap upgrades. The end result is that most people buy quite basic configurations and the poor schmucks that need the extra hardware have to pay dearly for it (if it's available at all). Of course, it seems that some people like being gouged and encourage the practice (by buying it).

Quote from: Frog on July 19, 2022, 00:11:20and will not buy a laptop with soldered RAM, either.

We know avg. lifespan of SDRAM sticks to be ~2 years, verbatim. After that, either a generation shifts (DDR4 -> DDR5), or they become way faster (DDR-2667 -> DDR4-3200). Old ones turn to paperweight, or more specifically, electronic waste.
A whole stick (and a socket!) instead of just 4 tiny chips? And what did that accomplish?..

Thick bezels, proprietary docking ports, Apple's crappy butterfly keyboard, glossy screens and high pitched fans are all things I hope never to come back.

I don't care for touchscreens and will not buy a laptop with soldered RAM, either.

Quote from: Hunter2020 on July 18, 2022, 22:00:15"Huawei MateBook is definitely compromised."

As opposed to?  Let's just assume Americans make crappy laptops the same way they make crappy cars...

Dell -> gone
HP -> gone

And that nobody is an Apple fanboy except the crazies...

Apple -> gone

That only leaves sensible people left with either Acer/Asus or Lenovo or Huawei.

Acer/Asus are known to be budget brands.  Nobody in the world thinks of them as luxury or premium items...

Acer -> gone
Asus -> gone

My my that only leaves us with Lenovo or Huawei.  It now boils down to choice.  I don't know about you but Lenovo is known for hell bent on selling the most laptop they could.  That means they rather emphasize marketability than innovation or quality.

Any sensible person can see, outside of Apple, the best laptop they could ever get is a Huawei Matebook!

Ok wumao. Knowing how you are comparing American cars to American computers shows how much you wanna make a point. Also LOL @ you thinking Huawei is a "luxury" brand lmao.

Both Dell and HP have their design offices in Taiwan/USA. Maybe thats why you say they are trash?
Both Dell and HP have solid laptops and computer choices in their corresponding price tag market.

Also, good luck getting a replacement part for that Huawei laptop. 3 years from now, you will throw it away when there are no batteries replacements for it.

"Huawei MateBook is definitely compromised."

As opposed to?  Let's just assume Americans make crappy laptops the same way they make crappy cars...

Dell -> gone
HP -> gone

And that nobody is an Apple fanboy except the crazies...

Apple -> gone

That only leaves sensible people left with either Acer/Asus or Lenovo or Huawei.

Acer/Asus are known to be budget brands.  Nobody in the world thinks of them as luxury or premium items...

Acer -> gone
Asus -> gone

My my that only leaves us with Lenovo or Huawei.  It now boils down to choice.  I don't know about you but Lenovo is known for hell bent on selling the most laptop they could.  That means they rather emphasize marketability than innovation or quality.

Any sensible person can see, outside of Apple, the best laptop they could ever get is a Huawei Matebook!

I agree with the sentiment on faux K panels 100%. However some of the information here isn't entirely correct.

QuoteSome of these panels, however, would utilize dedicated white subpixels in addition to RGB and so they were not "true" 4K.

These panels did include white dots, and it's absolutely true that they didn't increase density to fit them in the same regions that should already be occupied by RGB. However it's worse: the displays also reduced the total number of dots per denoted pixel to only two: RG then BW (or WR then GB). So the number of effective pixels per row was actually 1920 not 2880.

Really, these panels are best called "RG/BW" and "WR/GB", not "RGBW" and "WRGB". Omitting the slash or other delimiting character fails to properly summarize the issue.

The 2880 case did apply to some LG faux-K TVs.

Indeed, in the article you linked, you can find a comment by me where I already clarified all of this, four years ago. It feels as though I've done my part to correct some of the tangentialities on this subject, so why is Notebookcheck still presenting it inaccurately?

EDIT: The 2880 note has been corrected (removed), so thanks for that! However we still need the terminology updated and a few wordings tuned up.