Quote from: Nameless on July 18, 2023, 11:28:52What a massive self-own on your part. The manufacturer states it's "up to" 403km (overly optimistic best case scenario, normally can only be achieved in a lab), which is still laughable compared to even the cheapest ICE cars. And you conveniently ignored the slow-charging issue compared with ICE cars' 2-minute fueling.It's based on same test as ICE cars take.
QuoteNope, the article is about a decade into the future. However my original comment which started this debate is about my complaints with EVs today.No, the debate is about the future. You've just been trying to change the debate to one of current cause otherwise your point would be moot.
QuoteLying through your teeth, even though the evidence is in plain sight for all to see. "Your laptop and cellphone has a surveillance camera and they are in far more private locations than your car"= 'if you have a phone in your house, you should not care about cameras in the cockpit'The one lying here is you.
QuoteDelusional. Data is the new gold.All they care about is seeing what features you actually use for sales, they don't need a camera for that.
QuoteTalk like a shill, get treated like a shill, shill. "And government can force you to be on video 24/7"- shame on you. Despite the anonymity that this comment section provides, you should be disgusted with yourself for shilling for intolerable subjugation and attempting to normalize it as if it was part and parcel of life. I hope you get what you so desperately shill for."You agree, through your use of this forum, that you will not post any material which is false, defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, adult material, or otherwise in violation of any International or United States Federal law."
Pathetic shill.
Shill.
To all whom it may concern, let this be a lesson not to waste time on shills.
QuoteLeap Motors T03 it costs 65,800 RMB (about 9k) and has 403 km, Ora R2 Baimao LR for 75,800 RMBWhat a massive self-own on your part. The manufacturer states it's "up to" 403km (overly optimistic best case scenario, normally can only be achieved in a lab), which is still laughable compared to even the cheapest ICE cars. And you conveniently ignored the slow-charging issue compared with ICE cars' 2-minute fueling.
QuoteBut the discussion is about a decade into the future...Nope, the article is about a decade into the future. However my original comment which started this debate is about my complaints with EVs today.
QuoteNo, my argument was you can just block the camera. Then I went to talk about how so many devices already have cameras and mics.Lying through your teeth, even though the evidence is in plain sight for all to see. "Your laptop and cellphone has a surveillance camera and they are in far more private locations than your car"= 'if you have a phone in your house, you should not care about cameras in the cockpit'
QuoteSure, but you make it sound like they actually care what you do on your private time.Delusional. Data is the new gold.
QuoteCan we not result to personal insults?Talk like a shill, get treated like a shill, shill. "And government can force you to be on video 24/7"- shame on you. Despite the anonymity that this comment section provides, you should be disgusted with yourself for shilling for intolerable subjugation and attempting to normalize it as if it was part and parcel of life. I hope you get what you so desperately shill for.
Quotelets stop pretending that his is somehow different than what we already have.Pathetic shill.
QuoteIf government is going to require such, they simply won't renew your car registration until you install one.Shill.
Quote from: Nameless on July 17, 2023, 18:02:36I referred to EVs in Asia, where according to you, "there are plenty of cheap EVs under 10k" which have a laughable 100km range and they take many hours to charge.You are the one who used asia as and example so I pointed out they do have cheaper EV options.
QuoteMy complaint is about the flaws and disadvantages of EVs TODAY, not a decade into the future. Obviously, technology will improve, but it will likely happen in small increments over many years, as was the case in the past.But the discussion is about a decade into the future...
QuoteNope. You made the unconvincing argument that 'if you have a phone in your house, you should not care about cameras in the cockpit', in response to my dissatisfaction with cameras built-in in the EV's cockpit.No, my argument was you can just block the camera. Then I went to talk about how so many devices already have cameras and mics.
QuoteYou get what you tolerate, shill.Can we not result to personal insults? Sure you get what you tolerate, but lets stop pretending that his is somehow different than what we already have.
QuoteNothing, but if you put privacy blockers on the cameras in the cockpit, you give car manufacturers one more reason to stop your car remotely, which is why I'd rather not have cameras in the cockpit in the first place.Then they'll stop your car for not having cameras in your cockpit.
QuoteYou already answered your own question- because the car manufacturers might be convinced that "those truly caring about privacy are a minority" (which I disagree with BTW), and make a decision based on the assessment that the benefits for the car manufacturers would outweigh the drawbacks (namely the small impact on profitability that such a minority would cause).Sure, but you make it sound like they actually care what you do on your private time. All they care about is giving consumers the features they want that drive sales.
QuoteCan you guess which ICE car won't have it? My current, trusty ICE car. And the second-hand market, too, for years to come.If government is going to require such, they simply won't renew your car registration until you install one.
QuoteI wrote it in my previous comments but I'll remind you again since you didn't figure that out by yourself- It will take Europe years to build the manufacturing plants to produce enough batteries to become self-reliant. Thus China will continue to dominate the EV battery market globally (maybe except for the US), which means the CCP will laugh all the way to the bank.Note that most of China's dominance of the EV battery market is inside their own country. They aren't the only major producer of batteries, especially when you take out outside of China, there is Japan and South Korea and America too. Of course China will benefit from it too in the short term, but so what?
QuoteSource: "trust me lad"You don't know how emissions standards work do you?
QuoteHere's where you're wrong- people need to drive cars, that's why they own cars even when using public transportation makes more financial sense. If ICE cars are no longer an option in the market, many people will buy whatever they can. Tesla, as the market leader in EVs, is best positioned to benefit from that, which is why they're lobbying the EPA to ban ICE cars.That isn't how fleet average works, its based on emissions per mile per fleet average of a manufacturer
QuoteGiven that many markets, such as the EU, will ban ICE cars in the next decade, other brands are already investing heavily in EV tech.Relatively, none are planning a ban in 2030 right? And for US automakers, the US is pretty much the biggest market
QuoteWhataboutismAh, so you think only ICE cars can be allowed to be anti-competitive, got it
Quotethe car I mentioned which is cheapest in US has 578km range which is less than 700km.I referred to EVs in Asia, where according to you, "there are plenty of cheap EVs under 10k" which have a laughable 100km range and they take many hours to charge.
QuoteAnd technology continues to improve by the year, so not sure where you are gettingMy complaint is about the flaws and disadvantages of EVs TODAY, not a decade into the future. Obviously, technology will improve, but it will likely happen in small increments over many years, as was the case in the past.
QuoteIsn't that what I said? But you gave a fit about doing thatNope. You made the unconvincing argument that 'if you have a phone in your house, you should not care about cameras in the cockpit', in response to my dissatisfaction with cameras built-in in the EV's cockpit.
QuoteAnd government can force you to be on video 24/7, your point?You get what you tolerate, shill.
QuoteWhat's stopping from any car manufacturer from stopping your car? They all have cellular radios in them.Nothing, but if you put privacy blockers on the cameras in the cockpit, you give car manufacturers one more reason to stop your car remotely, which is why I'd rather not have cameras in the cockpit in the first place.
QuoteWhy in the world would they do something like that which would harm their sales?You already answered your own question- because the car manufacturers might be convinced that "those truly caring about privacy are a minority" (which I disagree with BTW), and make a decision based on the assessment that the benefits for the car manufacturers would outweigh the drawbacks (namely the small impact on profitability that such a minority would cause).
QuoteUnless government forces it, and at that point all cars would have it anyways.Can you guess which ICE car won't have it? My current, trusty ICE car. And the second-hand market, too, for years to come.
QuoteOkay, and?I wrote it in my previous comments but I'll remind you again since you didn't figure that out by yourself- It will take Europe years to build the manufacturing plants to produce enough batteries to become self-reliant. Thus China will continue to dominate the EV battery market globally (maybe except for the US), which means the CCP will laugh all the way to the bank.
QuoteThe rules do not mandate EVs though unlike the article claims, they simply set emissions standards for fleet average.Source: "trust me lad"
QuoteDo understand one thing, Tesla has nothing to gain financially if EPA makes the rules stricter.Here's where you're wrong- people need to drive cars, that's why they own cars even when using public transportation makes more financial sense. If ICE cars are no longer an option in the market, many people will buy whatever they can. Tesla, as the market leader in EVs, is best positioned to benefit from that, which is why they're lobbying the EPA to ban ICE cars.
QuoteThe more other brands invest in EVs, the more competition Tesla has. The more they ignore it, the more edge Tesla has over their competitors.Given that many markets, such as the EU, will ban ICE cars in the next decade, other brands are already investing heavily in EV tech.
QuoteThat said, if you want to talk about anti-competitiveness, why is it that gas cars are allowed to harm our health and pollute our air? If I were to throw toxic gas at you, I'd get arrested, if I did it from my car exhaust, then its okay. Isn't that special treatment? How about all gas cars reroute their exhaust to their interior? Let the driver pay the cost instead of sharing it with othersWhataboutism
Quote from: Nameless on July 15, 2023, 13:19:44Yeah, and these toy EVs have a laughable 100km range and they take many hours to charge. Meanwhile even the cheapest ICE car has over 700km range and takes a couple of minutes to fuel.Your logic is flawed, the car I mentioned which is cheapest in US has 578km range which is less than 700km.
QuoteJust put it in the drawer or put a privacy blocker on its camera, problem solved.Isn't that what I said? But you gave a fit about doing that
QuoteWhat percentage of cars sold around the globe in 2023 have surveillance cameras in the cockpit? There are plenty of people who care about privacy, and they create a niche which car companies can't ignore. Whether they're the majority or minority is up for debate.They have microphones at the very least.
QuoteThat same government could also outlaw privacy blockers. And what's stopping Tesla from programming the car to stop driving if the cameras detect they're blocked? I'd rather not have cameras in the cockpit in the first place.And government can force you to be on video 24/7, your point?
QuoteEven still, it will take them years to build the manufacturing plants to produce enough batteries to become self-reliant.Okay, and?
QuoteTesla lobbying the EPA to get ICE cars banned in 2030.
QuoteIf you count Asia, there are plenty of cheap EVs under 10k.Yeah, and these toy EVs have a laughable 100km range and they take many hours to charge. Meanwhile even the cheapest ICE car has over 700km range and takes a couple of minutes to fuel.
QuoteBut your cellphone has a camera right?Just put it in the drawer or put a privacy blocker on its camera, problem solved.
QuoteEnd of the day, more people want features and are not willing to sacrifice convenience for privacy.What percentage of cars sold around the globe in 2023 have surveillance cameras in the cockpit? There are plenty of people who care about privacy, and they create a niche which car companies can't ignore. Whether they're the majority or minority is up for debate.
QuoteThat's for autopilot, you can still drive the car normally. And all you describe was due to government requiring it for autopilot.That same government could also outlaw privacy blockers. And what's stopping Tesla from programming the car to stop driving if the cameras detect they're blocked? I'd rather not have cameras in the cockpit in the first place.
QuoteWho knows? Europe is crafting similar legislation.Even still, it will take them years to build the manufacturing plants to produce enough batteries to become self-reliant.
QuoteWhat anti-competitive lobbying do you speak of?Tesla lobbying the EPA to get ICE cars banned in 2030.
Quote from: Nameless on July 14, 2023, 14:31:08There's your problem- you limited your search to the US. Try searching in Europe and Asia.If you count Asia, there are plenty of cheap EVs under 10k.
QuoteMy DESKTOP PC doesn't have a built-in microphone, and I have easy to implement methods to prevent my phone from invading my privacy. Obviously the government can hack every computer in my possession, but where I draw the line is having cameras and microphones monitoring me in my private space. Cameras in the cockpit doesn't have to become the "norm". Shills want customers to believe that corporations are all-knowing all-powerful beings, and that the latters' greedy goals are inevitable, but it just doesn't have to be this way.But your cellphone has a camera right? End of the day, more people want features and are not willing to sacrifice convenience for privacy.
QuoteTesla has sensors in the steering wheel to make sure the driver's hands are on wheel. If the sensors detect that hands are off wheel, the driver will be alerted and the car will stop driving. I assume the cameras behave in the same manner when blocked. This German driver bypassed the steering wheel sensors by attaching a weight to the wheel in order to keep autopilot on while taking a nap.That's for autopilot, you can still drive the car normally. And all you describe was due to government requiring it for autopilot.
QuoteMaybe it will put an end to North America's reliance on Chinese batteries, but China will continue to dominate the EV battery market in the rest of the world.Who knows? Europe is crafting similar legislation.
QuoteI'm not against EVs becoming vastly superior to ICE cars, in fact I'd welcome it wholeheartedly. What I do have a problem with, aside from current EVs' shortcomings, is the anti-competitive lobbying, which is an indefensible position that you shamelessly try to defend.
QuoteThe cheapest car sold right now in US is $17,650 according to cars (.) comThere's your problem- you limited your search to the US. Try searching in Europe and Asia.
QuoteI am all for privacy, but I also realize the difference between privacy and false sense of privacy. Like all the people panicing about the privacy of Alexa not realizing that their phone mic and laptop mic is always on. The accelemeter can also be used as a mic. Or those people who freak out at government charing people per mile based on privacy, not realizing all modern cars have cellular that can triangulate your location. Not to mention your cellphone.My DESKTOP PC doesn't have a built-in microphone, and I have easy to implement methods to prevent my phone from invading my privacy. Obviously the government can hack every computer in my possession, but where I draw the line is having cameras and microphones monitoring me in my private space. Cameras in the cockpit doesn't have to become the "norm". Shills want customers to believe that corporations are all-knowing all-powerful beings, and that the latters' greedy goals are inevitable, but it just doesn't have to be this way.
QuoteNot sure where you get that nonsense idea, they will drive just fine.Tesla has sensors in the steering wheel to make sure the driver's hands are on wheel. If the sensors detect that hands are off wheel, the driver will be alerted and the car will stop driving. I assume the cameras behave in the same manner when blocked. This German driver bypassed the steering wheel sensors by attaching a weight to the wheel in order to keep autopilot on while taking a nap.
QuoteThe IRA already happened.Maybe it will put an end to North America's reliance on Chinese batteries, but China will continue to dominate the EV battery market in the rest of the world.
QuoteYou can't imagine but that is what happens. "a study by the University of Michigan found that vehicles over 10 years old consume 33% to 35% more fuel per mile compared to newer vehicles"I got curious, because you didn't provide a link and my well-maintained ICE car hasn't experienced fuel efficiency degradation, certainly not "33% to 35%", so I googled that quote and only found a blogpost which didn't provide a source to that so called "study", and no mention of this "study" elsewhere.
Quote from: Nameless on July 10, 2023, 13:50:42And the 2%-per-year battery degradation is a deal-breaker for me (I can't imagine my car's gas tank shrinking 2% a year)
Quote from: Nameless on July 10, 2023, 13:50:42Regarding Tesla's promises of cheaper EVs, I'll believe it when I see it. Nowadays EVs still cost over 30,000$, while brand new ICE cars can be had for as low as 10,000$, so as things currently stand it can take many years to break even with EVs.The cheapest car sold right now in US is $17,650 according to cars (.) com
QuoteAh yes, the infamous agreeable, spineless consumer. I bet you just love having your inalienable right to privacy taken from you. Screw me harder daddy Elon, amirite? Your mindset is no different than that of a victim in an abusive relationship. You don't have to accept car makers' BS policies. Vote with your wallet, buy an older car if you have to.I am all for privacy, but I also realize the difference between privacy and false sense of privacy. Like all the people panicing about the privacy of Alexa not realizing that their phone mic and laptop mic is always on. The accelemeter can also be used as a mic. Or those people who freak out at government charing people per mile based on privacy, not realizing all modern cars have cellular that can triangulate your location. Not to mention your cellphone.
QuoteBS solution. The EV won't drive until I remove the privacy blockers, will it?Not sure where you get that nonsense idea, they will drive just fine.
QuoteYou misunderstood me- EVs are heavier than comparable (meaning, similarly-sized) ICE cars.
QuoteWrong. bloomberg (.) com /news/articles/2022-12-06/battery-prices-climb-for-first-time-just-as-more-evs-hit-market.Temporary jump due to short term supply shortages, it's already going back down:
Quoteas for incombustable and undegradable, that would defy the laws of physicsThere are multiple types of battery technologies under development, such as solid-state battery, that are incombustible. And the 2%-per-year battery degradation is a deal-breaker for me, especially with current battery prices (I can't imagine my car's gas tank shrinking 2% a year), as well as the slow charging time.
QuoteUntil that happens, the CCP will laugh all the way to the bank.The IRA already happened.
QuoteFeatures like that are becoming the normAh yes, the infamous agreeable, spineless consumer. I bet you just love having your inalienable right to privacy taken from you. Screw me harder daddy Elon, amirite? Your mindset is no different than that of a victim in an abusive relationship. You don't have to accept car makers' BS policies. Vote with your wallet, buy an older car if you have to.
Quote(and mandated by law)Not in my country. Why won't you vote out tyrannical politicians?
Quoteto monitor things like driver fatigueOhhh it's for our safety? I don't need a trillion dollar corpo to keep me safe. I'm a responsible adult. In fact, the chance that I'll drive while being sleepy or intoxicated is significantly lower than the chance that you'll plow through a group of pedestrians in a fit of madness- should Tesla also install a pistol in the cockpit to neutralize you just in case (you know, for the safety of the innocent pedestrians)?
QuoteICE cars either have or will get them soon tooCan you guess which ICE car won't get them? My current, trusty ICE car. And the second-hand market, too, for years to come.
Quoteand they are in far more private locations than your carFalse assumption.
Quoteget privacy blockersBS solution. The EV won't drive until I remove the privacy blockers, will it?
QuoteAn EV is not heavier than a big SUV/TruckYou misunderstood me- EVs are heavier than comparable (meaning, similarly-sized) ICE cars.
Quoteanyone still selling new ICE vehicles by then can pretty much prepare to close shop as they simply won't be competitive.I'm not against that, but color me skeptical.
QuotePrice of batteries have been dropping rapidly every yearWrong. bloomberg (.) com /news/articles/2022-12-06/battery-prices-climb-for-first-time-just-as-more-evs-hit-market.
Quoteas for incombustable and undegradable, that would defy the laws of physicsThere are multiple types of battery technologies under development, such as solid-state battery, that are incombustible. And the 2%-per-year battery degradation is a deal-breaker for me, especially with current battery prices (I can't imagine my car's gas tank shrinking 2% a year), as well as the slow charging time.
QuoteIRA requires domestic content for mining, processing and manufacturing of ... EVs and their batteriesUntil that happens, the CCP will laugh all the way to the bank.
Quote from: John Fisher on July 09, 2023, 19:10:15Rent seeking much?
Quote from: Nameless on July 09, 2023, 19:17:01Tesla's chutzpah knows no bounds. How about Tesla ends gas vehicle sales by releasing a compelling EV that:
1. is affordable
2. has no surveillance cameras in the cockpit
3. has a battery that's affordable, incombustible, undegradable, quick to charge, slow to drain, whose functionality and health aren't negatively affected by extreme cold/hot weather, not as heavy as current battery tech (which makes EVs heavier and deadlier in car accidents than comparable ICE cars thanks to Newton's 3rd law), isn't made exclusively by Chinese companies that enrich the CCP
Quote from: Nameless on July 09, 2023, 19:17:01Tesla's chutzpah knows no bounds. How about Tesla ends gas vehicle sales by releasing a compelling EV that:
1. is affordable
2. has no surveillance cameras in the cockpit
3. has a battery that's affordable, incombustible, undegradable, quick to charge, slow to drain, whose functionality and health aren't negatively affected by extreme cold/hot weather, not as heavy as current battery tech (which makes EVs heavier and deadlier in car accidents than comparable ICE cars thanks to Newton's 3rd law), isn't made exclusively by Chinese companies that enrich the CCP
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