NotebookCHECK - Notebook Forum

8529€ machine is barely beating an RTX 4070 LAPTOP GPU 😂 That's all I have to say about what I think about it.

While the battery life is great, there is no reason at all you can justify the insane price to get that superior  battery life. This is a laptop that would cost more than a second hand car in Australia at something like $13K. That is literally insane for a non-upgradable laptop that will look like garbage in a mere 2-3 years. It would need to be 50% cheaper to even warrant consideration.

AMD for the easy win and it won't be long before we get Strix Point APU's and Meteor Lake APU's.

Quote from: Neenyah on November 09, 2023, 01:45:298529€ machine is barely beating an RTX 4070 LAPTOP GPU 😂 That's all I have to say about what I think about it.

That may be, but multicore CPU performance is close to desktop Intel levels.

That is insane, at least 20% better than my Razer Blade 18 running a 13980HX CPU in a smaller form factor and important for my use case - CPU powered 3D rendering. (Some of my 3D applications do not support GPU rendering.) And if I run my Razer on battery you can kiss that CPU & GPU performance goodbye. 3D accelerated GPU rendering has its benefits, but also its limitations. And the enormous unified memory allows for greater VRAM for GPU rendering than Nvidia provides.

The value (like everything) depends on your use case fella.

Quote from: Midnight.mangler on November 09, 2023, 08:28:08CPU performance [...] the enormous unified memory allows for greater VRAM for GPU rendering than Nvidia provides.

See here for the very low GPU compute performance and efficiency:

www.notebookchat.com/index.php?msg=559690

Hello,

first of all, thank you very much for the test!

Are you going to test the M3 Max 14 cpu and 30 gpu version?

The biggest surprise is that at the same power usage (55W), the Ryzen 9 7945HX outperforms the M3 Max in Cinebench R23 Multi, scoring 26,045 points compared to 24,024. Insane! Even Intel isn't far behind with 19,772 at 55W. It looks like in 2024, both Intel and AMD will be ahead.

Also interesting are the new benchmarks (2024, 6.2) favoring Apple SoC. This probably indicates some heavy Apple compiler optimization. I observed something similar in the past with the Intel compiler. It's not fair to use the Apple compiler for the Apple SoC and a generic compiler for the rest :)

Overall nice notebook with 128GB RAM and 8TB SSD, only price is too high.

Brilliant laptop with amazing technology overpriced for greed reasons. Its a shame.

Quote from: RobertJasiek on November 09, 2023, 09:50:55

Quote from: Midnight.mangler on November 09, 2023, 08:28:08CPU performance [...] the enormous unified memory allows for greater VRAM for GPU rendering than Nvidia provides.

See here for the very low GPU compute performance and efficiency:

www.notebookchat.com/index.php?msg=559690

I am very aware of the delta, which is why I clearly emphasized CPU performance as important for my use case. If I want GPU rendering - which I use very infrequently - I'll use my Razer Blade 18 with a 4090 for that.

Nevertheless, the GPU performance is still usable on Apple silicon.

Quote from: paviko on November 09, 2023, 11:49:29The biggest surprise is that at the same power usage (55W), the Ryzen 9 7945HX outperforms the M3 Max in Cinebench R23 Multi, scoring 26,045 points compared to 24,024. Insane! Even Intel isn't far behind with 19,772 at 55W. It looks like in 2024, both Intel and AMD will be ahead.

Also interesting are the new benchmarks (2024, 6.2) favoring Apple SoC. This probably indicates some heavy Apple compiler optimization. I observed something similar in the past with the Intel compiler. It's not fair to use the Apple compiler for the Apple SoC and a generic compiler for the rest :)

Overall nice notebook with 128GB RAM and 8TB SSD, only price is too high.

I think Cinebench R23 was not yet ready for ARM. In any case, Cinebench 2024 is a good to compare ARM vs. x86, with R23 the spread between 13900HX and M3 Max is 1.25x, with 2024 it increases to 1.5x.

My projection based on the information released so far puts the performance/power curves of M3 Max, Arrow lake-HX, and Fire Range in close proximity. Next holiday season, M3, Arrow lake-H, Lunar lake, Strix Point, and Snap Dragon X Elite will each be placed closer on the performance/power curve.

Quote from: Midnight.mangler on November 09, 2023, 12:34:49the GPU performance is still usable on Apple silicon.

It may - with existing software - often be usable but whether then it is useful at the relatively limited speeds depends on the application and user's requirements. (For my application and requirements, it would be way too slow. For others, this might differ.)

A part of that price is the 8TB SSD and the 128GB Memory...


In GPU rendering with Metal we need to wait for Blender 4.0 release to have a real benchmark. Maybe Octane and Redshift(Cinebench 2024) are already updated but were not posted here.


The unified memory is what makes me look for Apple due to miserable Nvidia VRAM values. 16GB VRAM is the minimum to work in Unreal Engine.

$8000+, approx.

Apple promised a memory controller 25% slower than in the M2 Max (apparently that's a lie, too, because I never saw its tests in the reviews) with 300GB/s. What do we see in reality? Shameful 122-125GB/s, i.e. more than 2 times slower and not much different from x86.

Slow card reader (or the testers have too slow cards).

A shameful screen with a monstrous response, on which it is even impossible to play a 60fps video! Without full support for AdobeRGB with low brightness and the real black level and contrast deliberately hidden from us by the review authors, which is obviously extremely poor. And also the real state of the calibration quality, hidden from us - apparently it also turned out to be clearly bad in terms of dE.

As always, a poor keyboard without a numpad, which sharply reduces the performance of data entry, group file operations, and navigation.

Let's go further - at 56W, Apple disgraced itself with a "3nm" SoC - AMD gained significantly in pure multi-threaded performance with the same consumption on the outdated 7945HX 2022 even with "5/6nm". It's not even Zen4 Phoenix with "4/5nm".

The overall picture becomes much less favorable for Apple, because improvement of technical processes is becoming slower and less efficient and gaining access to the most advanced technical processes no longer saves the Apple team from the problems of inefficiency in the development of Arm cores and the lack of a more significant leap in technical processes to break away from competitors in a stupid way .

Even at rest, consumption is gradually increasing. The noise increases. The rate of increase in performance per 1W begins to fall rapidly.

The question is, who and why will need such a laptop for $8000+? For this money in the x86 camp you can just buy a top-class uber-laptop or 2 supernotebooks.

Quite a beautiful trinket for rich bloggers, nothing more, but extremely ineffective in terms of capabilities/price for normal people involved in real business and development. For ~$4000 it has the right to life, taking into account the deception with the performance of the memory controller, SoC/igpu and other shortcomings, but not for 8000+

Sadly. 2023 brings experts only disappointment in the laptop market, time after time. Downgrade and shortcomings everywhere...

Quote from: Midnight.mangler on November 09, 2023, 08:28:08The value (like everything) depends on your use case fella.

Not really... it depends on how much one (or rather, whoever is paying) values the gain they make from it. And it kind of comes down to personal choices too. If I were to ask my boss a 8000€ machine (or even half of it, which gets you 1tb/36gb) because it does one task 20% faster on battery he would probably question my 'use case'.

Quote from: NikoB on November 09, 2023, 13:48:44outdated 7945HX 2022 even with "5/6nm". It's not even Zen4 Phoenix with "4/5nm".

Outdated?? there are no newer CPU generation in actual laptops, and the 7945hx was availaible like 3-4 months ago...

Quote from: LL on November 09, 2023, 13:40:42part of that price is the 8TB SSD and the 128GB Memory...

~500$ + 500$ = 1000$. 9000$ - 1000$ = 8000$...

SoC - $1500 maximum. Screen - $200-250 (I know better and cheaper screens). Battery $120-150 (taking into account quality, unlike Chinese ones). Motherboard - $300. Housing - $300. Power supply - $50.

1500+300+200+150+300+50 + 1000 ~ 3500, max 3800 and a decent margin of +1000$ - 4500-4800.

This is approximate _retail_ prices for components with great guarantees are indicated, not wholesale. Wholesale is 1.5-2 times less.

What else is Apple asking for additional +4500-$5000? For fun and experience? Is it really for the "ecosystem"?

Quote from: larkhon on November 09, 2023, 13:54:44there are no newer CPU generation in actual laptops, and the 7945hx was availaible like 3-4 months ago...

laptops based on the 7945H3DX are officially already on sale.

Quote from: LL on November 09, 2023, 13:40:42The unified memory is what makes me look for Apple due to miserable Nvidia VRAM values. 16GB VRAM is the minimum to work in Unreal Engine.

Just curios: why are AMD GPUs not an option for you?

Quote from: NikoB on November 09, 2023, 14:06:16SoC - $1500 maximum. Screen - $200-250 (I know better and cheaper screens). Battery $120-150 (taking into account quality, unlike Chinese ones). Motherboard - $300. Housing - $300.

I have never, not even remotely, seen you so generous before...

QuoteWhat else is Apple asking for additional +4500-$5000? For fun and experience? Is it really for the "ecosystem"?

Apple sells its cult to cover its greed.

Luxury. If one has to ask for the price, one cannot afford the specimen.

x86 cores are simply suffocated by slow RAM and a shame 128-bit controllers.

As soon as AMD switches to an HBM3 memory controller for top-end laptops with 1TB/s, it will be able to make the built-in gpu at the 4080+ level. With 128GB HBM3e soldered together with Zen5 cores, Apple has no chance against AMD in top-end segment. But this is, of course, pure theorizing - in reality, the AMD team is weakening. But it is clear that the Apple team already has problems, so the race between teams is becoming increasingly fierce in 2024. And somewhere on the side is the Intel team. The Qualcomm team is stepping on their heels. And somewhere in the clearing there is also the Mediatek team hanging out, the fate of which so far looks like the fate of VIA in the x86 market in the early 2000s..

Quote from: NikoB on November 09, 2023, 14:17:31As soon as AMD switches to an HBM3 memory controller for top-end laptops with 1TB/s, it will be able to make the built-in gpu at the 4080+ level. With 128GB HBM3e soldered together with Zen5 cores

Sorry, no, too much of a dream! Bandwidth alone does not create fast GPU speed. It also needs fast and many cores, which comes at the cost of TDP. We see it in 780M, which is only marginally better than 680M because of the TDP limitation. AMD could not fit more cores without exceeding a reasonable TDP.

HBM3 - yes, please. But 4080 speed in an SoC we will have to await for another 10+ years, unfortunately.

Quote from: RobertJasiek on November 09, 2023, 14:26:11HBM3 - yes, please. But 4080 speed in an SoC we will have to await for another 10+ years, unfortunately.

HBM3 is key to tightly packing Zen5 cores with graphics cores. Let me remind you that such a combination is many times more efficient (and in terms of consumption) than external video cards on the poor pci-e 4.0 bus.

Today you simply cannot offer a laptop over $4,500 without a fast 128GB of RAM.

When one chipmaker packs everything tightly together, with minimal distances along the conductors from one chip to another, leakage is minimal, consumption will drop significantly just because of this. Plus optimization of access of cpu cores and gpu to each other at breakneck speed compared to the poor and slow pci-e 4.0. And this is AMD's chance against NVidia - to make a single SoC in a multi-chip version. NVidia does not have a license for x86 and does not have its own effective team for developing universal computing cores, so it is not clear why AMD is dragging its feet on this topic, although it is most beneficial for them in the fight against NVidia and Intel. There is only one thing that explains its inaction on this topic - it is simply a laying company for Intel to eliminate problems with the antimonopoly department. Therefore, AMD does not strive to be first - its bosses simply do not need it...

Quote from: larkhon on November 09, 2023, 13:54:44

Quote from: NikoB on November 09, 2023, 13:48:44outdated 7945HX 2022 even with "5/6nm". It's not even Zen4 Phoenix with "4/5nm".

Outdated?? there are no newer CPU generation in actual laptops, and the 7945hx was availaible like 3-4 months ago...

He is always like that. As soon as something is more than one month old it becomes extremely outdated to him and especially if there is anything even 0.1% faster in any benchmark.

Quote from: NikoB on November 09, 2023, 14:08:47laptops based on the 7945H3DX are officially already on sale.

7945H3DX doesn't exist. It the 7945HX3D. And yes, it's on a magical sale of literally ZERO available (available to order) of them in the EU: https://www.idealo.de/preisvergleich/MainSearchProductCategory.html?q=7945HX3D

And precisely ONE laptop (in three different models) in the US, the ROG Strix Scar 17: https://www.newegg.com/p/pl?d=7945HX3D

Truly makes everything else outdated 🙇

Quote from: RobertJasiek on November 09, 2023, 14:15:26Apple sells its cult to cover its greed.

The cult also assumes real superiority over competitors in everything, regardless of price (well, for example, like a car), but this is not even close. The M3 Max is already inferior to last year's outdated 7945HX from AMD in terms of core energy efficiency.

It turns out that this is a 2.1kg cult with these characteristics? But they clearly do not impress IT experts. This is not what we expected from Apple at the end of 2023...

Quote from: Neenyah on November 09, 2023, 15:33:54Magical sale of literally ZERO of them in the EU: www.idealo.de/preisvergleich/MainSearchProductCategory.html?q=7945H3DX

It's not my fault that Asus considers Europeans second-class citizens compared to North Americans.

Quote from: Neenyah on November 09, 2023, 15:33:54And precisely ONE laptop (in three different models) in the US, the ROG Strix Scar 17: www.newegg.com/p/pl?d=7945H3DX

I have already written many times that ASUS is the number one supplier of their majesty TSMC/AMD. They are always the first in Taiwan to have access to the latest chips. The rest have to bite the dust...

Quote from: NikoB on November 09, 2023, 15:41:37It's not my fault that Asus considers Europeans second-class citizens compared to North Americans.

I have already written many times that ASUS is the number one supplier of their majesty TSMC/AMD. They are always the first in Taiwan to have access to the latest chips. The rest have to bite the dust...

Nice try but no. It's not available in Taiwan either not even on the official Asus site (while other laptops are available just fine to purchase directly from that same site): https://www.asus.com/tw/laptops/for-home/all-series/filter?Spec=181782

https://www.asus.com/tw/searchresult?searchType=&searchKey=7945HX3D&page=1

Taiwan is a second-class country to Asus 😞

Of course, residents of the USA are metropolises, there are first-class citizens and naturally the Taiwanese are not of interest to ASUS in general, including in terms of purchasing power, but I am sure that buying the latest Asus models оn Taiwan is not a problem for the Taiwanese who need it. When factories are nearby, there is no problem... ;)

Brilliant laptop, unmatched in combination of characteristics.
Patiently waiting for M6 though to upgrade my M1Max )

Quote from: NikoB on November 09, 2023, 15:52:31Of course, residents of the USA are metropolises, there are first-class citizens and naturally the Taiwanese are not of interest to ASUS in general, including in terms of purchasing power, but I am sure that buying the latest Asus models оn Taiwan is not a problem for the Taiwanese who need it. When factories are nearby, there is no problem... ;)

Hmmm...

Quote from: NikoB on November 09, 2023, 15:41:37I have already written many times that ASUS is the number one supplier of their majesty TSMC/AMD. They are always the first in Taiwan to have access to the latest chips. The rest have to bite the dust...

Ah ok, the US metropolises are in Taiwan. Got it 👍

Quote from: Neenyah on November 09, 2023, 15:55:23Ah ok, the US metropolises are in Taiwan. Got it

Are you surprised that Taiwan, Japan and South Korea are actually colonies of the United States? Were you born yesterday?

Uncle Sam's shaggy hand is visible everywhere.

Like in a bunch of other places where US capital has an interest in local workers (still does). Obviously, from the point of view of cheap labor, Japan, South Korea and Taiwan have long been no longer interesting sites for the investment of US capital, but this is how it has historically developed. All countries are covered by US missile defense. These are not just production sites with once cheap labor, as mainland China was quite recently (until 2015, when Western capital began to move there faster and faster), these are colonies. China was originally formally independent (and it is a nuclear country), although it is confused by a bunch of invisible ties with the United States.

You again begin to argue on a topic that you are poorly versed in and take the general topic away from the main thing.

Quoteuntil 2015, when Western capital began to move there faster and faster

Right - "When Western capital began to flee from there faster and faster". The stupid "AI" from the Google translator is, as always, in all its glory - it completely distorted the meaning of the phrase, and not for the first time. Sometimes it seems like Google does this on purpose...

Quote from: NikoB on November 09, 2023, 16:03:26You again begin to argue on a topic that you are poorly versed in and take the general topic away from the main thing.

That's the most precise definition of yourself actually, you summed your character nicely in one sentence. You claim one thing, you get proofs to show you wrong, you turn to (geo)politics, conspiracies, "fools with millions to spend" and similar blablablaing as always in every single thread about any existing matter. I mean you talk about one CPU being obsolete while you yourself use a PC from 2009, lol. Keep trolling, you are a true pro in that.

Edit: There, so much about who is taking "the general topic away from the main thing"; oh look it is you who started it with your usual BS: https://www.notebookchat.com/index.php?topic=182887.msg559768#msg559768

Quote from: Neenyah on November 09, 2023, 16:13:20That's the most precise definition of yourself actually, you summed your character nicely in one sentence. You claim one thing, you get proofs to show you wrong, you turn to (geo)politics, conspiracies, "fools with millions to spend" and similar blablablaing as always in every single thread about any existing matter. I mean you talk about one CPU being obsolete while you yourself use a PC from 2009, lol. Keep trolling, you are a true pro in that.

He's a local grumpy grandpa. )

Quote from: A on November 09, 2023, 16:19:26He's a local grumpy grandpa. )

😁👍

Quote from: NikoB on November 09, 2023, 14:08:47

Quote from: larkhon on November 09, 2023, 13:54:44there are no newer CPU generation in actual laptops, and the 7945hx was availaible like 3-4 months ago...

laptops based on the 7945H3DX are officially already on sale.

That is still Zen 4 Dragon Range, and this 3D update is mostly relevant to gaming, which isn't really relevant for a Macbook. And the 7945HX was announced in 2023, not last year.

Doesn't change the point that Apple's CPU are not even the most efficient CPUs out there, despite all the brainwashing. On that we agree.

Quote from: larkhon on November 09, 2023, 17:34:26

Quote from: NikoB on November 09, 2023, 14:08:47

Quote from: larkhon on November 09, 2023, 13:54:44there are no newer CPU generation in actual laptops, and the 7945hx was availaible like 3-4 months ago...

laptops based on the 7945H3DX are officially already on sale.

That is still Zen 4 Dragon Range, and this 3D update is mostly relevant to gaming, which isn't really relevant for a Macbook. And the 7945HX was announced in 2023, not last year.

Correct. It's also funny how in both games and apps that same "obsolete" 7945XH is quite often beating the "officially already on sale" 7945HX3D, as nicely shown in Jarrod'sTech's vid where even himself said that it's absolutely not worth it outside of gaming: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kU-pOoAKXf0

But NikoB is a far bigger expert with more results and analysis to show and to prove Jarrod being wrong.

🙃

Quote from: larkhon on November 09, 2023, 17:34:26Doesn't change the point that Apple's CPU are not even the most efficient CPUs out there, despite all the brainwashing. On that we agree.

Nah, Cinebench is just too synthetic, you don't use your CPU for rendering irl. So it's like a very narrow and specific test of something one never does (and you can optimize your CPU for higher score in it).
Real battery life - M3Max is king.

Quote from: Neenyah on November 09, 2023, 16:13:20That's the most precise definition of yourself actually, you summed your character nicely in one sentence. You claim one thing, you get proofs to show you wrong, you turn to (geo)politics, conspiracies, "fools with millions to spend" and similar blablablaing as always in every single thread about any existing matter. I mean you talk about one CPU being obsolete while you yourself use a PC from 2009, lol. Keep trolling, you are a true pro in that.

You are a pathetic and ignorant troll. Anyone who reads me knows perfectly well what I use and that I have long since moved away from PCs to laptops. The fact that my 2009 PC works great only emphasizes how well and competently I choose things in advance.

You are even a layman when it comes to hardware, and it's better for you not to meddle in politics, where your defeat is predetermined by me.

Quote from: A on November 09, 2023, 16:19:26

Quote from: Neenyah on November 09, 2023, 16:13:20That's the most precise definition of yourself actually, you summed your character nicely in one sentence. You claim one thing, you get proofs to show you wrong, you turn to (geo)politics, conspiracies, "fools with millions to spend" and similar blablablaing as always in every single thread about any existing matter. I mean you talk about one CPU being obsolete while you yourself use a PC from 2009, lol. Keep trolling, you are a true pro in that.

He's a local grumpy grandpa. )

Another local troll who shamefully fled from all the topics where I crushed him to smithereens.

Quote from: larkhon on November 09, 2023, 17:34:26And the 7945HX was announced in 2023, not last year.

wccftech.com/amd-12-core-ryzen-9-7845hx-dragon-range-high-end-laptop-cpu-shows-up-in-aots/
article from 16 november 2022. The first models with 7945HX were already available in May 2023. As usual from ASUS. In reality, this is a year-old processor, because all manufacturers have received it since the summer of 2022.

Quote from: Neenyah on November 09, 2023, 18:18:41Correct. It's also funny how in both games and apps that same "obsolete" 7945XH is quite often beating the "officially already on sale" 7945HX3D, as nicely shown in Jarrod'sTech's vid where even himself said that it's absolutely not worth it outside of gaming

Again, a troll claims something that I didn't claim. I informed that the latest top AMD processor is the 7945H3DX and it is actually sold in the USA as part of ASUS laptops, and not the 7945HX and nothing more. Keep wagging your tail. But you don't know how to think.

Quote from: NikoB on November 09, 2023, 19:09:44Another local troll who shamefully fled from all the topics where I crushed him to smithereens.

Haha, nah man, it's the first time we've met. You've made quite an impression though.

Quote from: NikoB on November 09, 2023, 19:09:44You are a pathetic and ignorant troll. Anyone who reads me knows perfectly well...

...that B in your name stands for "Braindead", yes. We agree on that.

Quote from: NikoB on November 09, 2023, 19:09:44You are even a layman when it comes to hardware, and it's better for you not to meddle in politics, where your defeat is predetermined by me.

🌳🐕

Quote from: NikoB on November 09, 2023, 19:09:44Again, a troll claims something that I didn't claim.

Really? Tard too much? Here:

Quote from: NikoB on November 09, 2023, 13:48:44on the outdated 7945HX 2022

Quote from: NikoB on November 09, 2023, 19:09:44I informed that the latest top AMD processor is the 7945H3DX and it is actually sold in the USA as part of ASUS laptops, and not the 7945HX and nothing more. Keep wagging your tail. But you don't know how to think.

What an actual lying cringelord 😂😂😂😂😂 Because people can't read, right? And find your 🐶💩 written around. So let's see how you informed, especially about it being sold in the USA as a part of ASUS laptops:

Quote from: NikoB on November 09, 2023, 14:08:47laptops based on the 7945H3DX are officially already on sale.

Oh hold up, that was me actually, not you (and you can't even type the CPU name correctly because the 7945H3DX literally doesn't exist 🤣):

Quote from: Neenyah on November 09, 2023, 15:33:54

Quote from: NikoB on November 09, 2023, 14:08:47laptops based on the 7945H3DX are officially already on sale.

7945H3DX doesn't exist. It the 7945HX3D. And yes, it's on a magical sale of literally ZERO available (available to order) of them in the EU: https://www.idealo.de/preisvergleich/MainSearchProductCategory.html?q=7945HX3D

And precisely ONE laptop (in three different models) in the US, the ROG Strix Scar 17: https://www.newegg.com/p/pl?d=7945HX3D

Truly makes everything else outdated 🙇

Oh yeah and about this:

Quote from: NikoB on November 09, 2023, 19:09:44The fact that my 2009 PC works great only emphasizes how well and competently I choose things in advance.

It only emphasizes how a little man you are, actually. Envious of everyone basically because you can't afford anything newer than your 2009 PC and your 15+ y.o. MSI laptop. So as you are not capable to afford an upgrade all that's left to you is to sh*t on everyone else by calling everything "extremely outdated", "slow", "overpriced junk" and so on because you are well-aware that current ultimate highest end tech is used by less than 2% of people so you pretty much praise that as you know there is statistically small probability to find someone with that exact very top of the line CPU/GPU/whatever. Makes you feel superior by calling other people's tech obsolete trash and so on all while typing that BS on your dual core crap from 2009, lol. Truly sad 🤡.

Quote from: RobertJasiek on November 09, 2023, 14:09:55Just curios: why are AMD GPUs not an option for you?

Not as well performing in a lot of GPU render and video apps. CUDA is also ubiquous in a lot of support applications while AMD is nowhere to be seen.

Blender is one glaring example.
The market for AMD GPU laptops is also very small.

Quote from: Neenyah on November 09, 2023, 19:35:06Envious of everyone basically because you can't afford anything newer than your 2009 PC and your 15+ y.o. MSI laptop

Troll, I have already written many times that I have other laptops, much newer. I'm just happy with this PC more than for my entertainment purposes - I watch movies from it on a projector in the evenings and sometimes I also listen to music through an external DAC connected via optics. It has long been taken out of working use, although Windows 7 Pro still works great on it, and I have no desire to install W10. There are work laptops for this.

You are so pathetic in your attempts to attack me that you constantly look like a holy fool. Your experience is simply nothing compared to mine. And not only in IT.

Quote from: paviko on November 09, 2023, 11:49:29The biggest surprise is that at the same power usage (55W), the Ryzen 9 7945HX outperforms the M3 Max in Cinebench R23 Multi, scoring 26,045 points compared to 24,024. Insane! Even Intel isn't far behind with 19,772 at 55W. It looks like in 2024, both Intel and AMD will be ahead.

Also interesting are the new benchmarks (2024, 6.2) favoring Apple SoC. This probably indicates some heavy Apple compiler optimization. I observed something similar in the past with the Intel compiler. It's not fair to use the Apple compiler for the Apple SoC and a generic compiler for the rest :)

That's because the 16 core AMD is all performance while the M3 Max is 12performance and 4 efficient cores.

Overall nice notebook with 128GB RAM and 8TB SSD, only price is too high.

Dear review author, please be honest:

Quotewhen we used the High Performance mode the fan speed would increase to ∼5600 rpm, which results in a very loud noise of 55.2 dB(A).

...and then you use 42.8 db(A) in a table for comparison with other notebooks.
"High Power" mode is necessary to stop throttling - which is clearly visible in "Automatic", as you've shown on graphs, but you did not mention it at all.

QuoteThe system favors the GPU performance during the stress test and we can see a combined (CPU+GPU) consumption of 78 Watts at the start of the test. The GPU will quickly level off at around 37 Watts, but the processor drops to just 11 Watts after a couple of minutes, and the combined consumption is around 48 Watts.

...and then:

QuoteThe power consumption is also a bit higher under load, but we see the same 145W limit at the beginning of the stress test

So the first "stress test" does not look like THE stress test, does it?

QuoteThe multi-core performance was increased by more than 60 % compared to the M2 Max, and even Intel's H45 chips, as well as AMD's HS processors (Zen4), are clearly beaten. The single-core performance (+20 %) is also comparable to Intel's H45 CPUs.

...so why don't you write:
"However, the multi-core performance of AMD Ryzen 9 7945HX (Zen 4) is 44 % better and Intel Core i9-13980HX is 28 % better, so Apple M3 Max is clearly beaten. Zen 4 is more efficient, too. This is on application native to M3 Max and on emulated workloads both its performance and efficiency will be relatively worse.", hmmm?

Oh boy those pixel response times are downright dreadful!

Guess I'd have to wait until MBP comes with OLED screens before I can take the plunge. 

Quote from: Li on November 12, 2023, 13:53:00Apple M3 Max is clearly beaten. Zen 4 is more efficient, too

Idk, inconclusive. Different tests show different outcomes. Cinebench is more of a very synthetic test, doing only one (and non real-world) task. Also it's using (ahem ahem cheater :D ) more advanced SIMD instruction sets on x64 that are not present on ARM.

I'd say they all are on par. As for energy efficiency, I'd look at battery life, because in the end it's the only number that actually matters for laptop. CPUs very rarely get to 100% CPU load in real use, most of the time you will be around 3-10%.

Quote from: NikoB on November 10, 2023, 17:06:20Troll, I have already written many times that I have other laptops, much newer. I'm just happy with this PC more than for my entertainment purposes - I watch movies from it on a projector in the evenings and sometimes I also listen to music through an external DAC connected via optics. It has long been taken out of working use, although Windows 7 Pro still works great on it, and I have no desire to install W10. There are work laptops for this.

You are so pathetic in your attempts to attack me that you constantly look like a holy fool. Your experience is simply nothing compared to mine. And not only in IT.

https://floridabhcenter.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/Pages-2019-Psychotherapeutic-Medication-Guidelines-for-Adults_Schizophrenia_06-04-20.pdf

Quote from: A on November 12, 2023, 14:53:47Cinebench is more of a very synthetic test, doing only one (and non real-world) task. Also it's using (ahem ahem cheater :D ) more advanced SIMD instruction sets on x64 that are not present on ARM.

Cinebench is very real-world, as real as it gets, but it is not a general purpose benchmark yet people and reviewers keep using it for exactly that while there are much better options.

The whole idea behind Cinebench is to use it to evaluate how well will Maxon's apps and software run on one's PC, literally nothing more than that and I can assure you that Maxon's team probably couldn't care less if their super-optimized professional-grade 3D rendering engine (Redshift now in Cinebench 2024) exercises all CPU elements fairly for general everyday computing tasks and usage or for gaming.

One weaker CPU can get much better score than another much stronger CPU there and what does that mean? Only that one CPU will almost certainly be better suited to run Maxon's apps ( https://www.maxon.net/en/ ). If one has no plans to ever touch Cinema 4D or ZBrush or anything else made by Maxon then there really is no reason to run Cinebench at all.

Quote from: Neenyah on November 12, 2023, 17:48:08The whole idea behind Cinebench is to use it to evaluate how well will Maxon's apps and software run on one's PC,

More like "how well would Maxon apps work on this CPU if you didn't have GPU". Looks quite far from real world to me. We can meet in the middle and make it "Cinebench represents a very niche software problem". )

Cinebench has its internal structure optimized for x86 SIMD instructions and is heavily optimized for x86 SIMD instructions. Only at around June 2022 Embree lib (ray tracing lib used in Cinebench, developed by _Intel_) added several optimizations for Neon (M SoC SIMD instruction set), and that alone increased M SoCs Cinebench score by 8%. And it's still far from being optimal. And actually no idea if that version is already used in latest Cinebench.

So Cinebench score is mostly a question of optimization. And funny thing is, Redshift is seemingly considered to be more stable on M macs by users. )

No, no, you are correct A, I'm not stating the opposite, just that Cinebench as a benchmark has its own extremely useful purpose which is not to be a general-purpose benchmark, that's all.

Wow... https://imgur.com/Czsm8an 😨

So this well-known issue of worn out keys is there after 3-4 days on a brand new device!! Unreal. From The Tech Chap's review, 3:35 in the vid: https://youtu.be/P0sVCUWJ6VU?t=215



I wrote about that a couple of times:

Quote from: Neenyah on November 06, 2023, 17:48:40Also good luck with this and their keyboards, lol:

• https://medium.com/macoclock/what-i-hate-about-my-macbook-pro-after-a-year-2f4da6cc15a4
• https://discussions.apple.com/thread/253705285
• https://discussions.apple.com/thread/254925851
• https://discussions.apple.com/thread/252263446
• https://www.reddit.com/r/mac/comments/hoxdjp/macbook_pro_16_keys_wearing_smooth_ive_had_this/?rdt=34335
• https://www.reddit.com/r/macbookpro/comments/upq8fe/does_the_m1_macbook_keyboard_really_get_shiny/
• https://www.reddit.com/r/mac/comments/qscfg7/why_thats_happening_for_my_6_months_mac_space_bar/

I can keep posting hundreds more identical issues from 2020 onwards, because Apple is cheapening out by intentionally using the lowest quality possible ABS plastic for their keyboards so they turn to that glossy ugly mess after weeks of usage. Cheapest Acers on the market wont get shiny keys THAT fast.

Quote from: Neenyah on November 16, 2023, 19:13:21So this well-known issue of worn out keys is there after 3-4 days on a brand new device!! Unreal.

These don't look  worn out, more like it's grease from fingers. And it's really unrealistic to achieve in couple days unless you do it for lulz. ) Just clean those with wet wipes and you'll be fine.

Though matte finish really can physically wear and become glossy or semi-glossy in a year or two. But those key caps are so easily replaceable _without_ disassembling your macbook, that in reality no one cares.

P.S. It was especially bad in 2020-2021, when everyone was using sanitizer 24/7. Plastics, finishes and rubbers don't like it. I think people were destroying literally everything at the time, from Logitech mice rubber finishes to Samsung phone cases, just with their hands.

Quote from: A on November 16, 2023, 19:43:26These don't look  worn out, more like it's grease from fingers. And it's really unrealistic to achieve in couple days unless you do it for lulz. ) Just clean those with wet wipes and you'll be fine.

He said in the vid that he tried to clean it but no success and his hands were clean. I'll check other reviewers later today, currently busy with CS2 for a next few hours.

Quote from: A on November 16, 2023, 19:43:26Though matte finish really can physically wear and become glossy or semi-glossy in a year or two. But those key caps are so easily replaceable _without_ disassembling your macbook, that in reality no one cares.

After a few days or weeks 😐 As mostly reported on all those links above from MacBook Pro/Air owners plus many other sources well documented. Vid for more info about it:
"Shiny MacBook Keys?" https://youtu.be/yDccCQEYWSQ

My M1 Air was also like that but much later as it wasn't my main device so I used it for about 1 hour per day at most (sold it to buy an RTX 3070 Ti and new CPU for my desktop).

Luckily it wasn't anywhere near this: https://www.reddit.com/r/macbookpro/comments/uw1mfn/m1_pro_unsightly_keypad_wear_after_only_7_months/

Quote from: A on November 16, 2023, 19:43:26P.S. It was especially bad in 2020-2021, when everyone was using sanitizer 24/7. Plastics, finishes and rubbers don't like it. I think people were destroying literally everything at the time, from Logitech mice rubber finishes to Samsung phone cases, just with their hands.

That is true yeah, some people used even those acids for cleaning stuff around home to clean their screens to permanently destroy them, lol 🙄

Quote from: Neenyah on November 16, 2023, 19:52:38He said in the vid that he tried to clean it but no success and his hands were clean.

Ah, I watched without sound. Well, I still really don't think one can do this in several days. But over time keys will get polished and become glossy, that's a fact.

Meh, I'll just replace mine when they do. Kits are cheap, replacement is 5 mins.

The PROOF from China official site of Lenovo:
mitem.lenovo.com.cn/product/1030510.html
~1260$
And that config much faster(from PSU) then M3 Max Macbook 16 Pro 2023...=)

Quote from: NikoB on November 29, 2023, 19:17:41The PROOF from China official site of Lenovo:
mitem.lenovo.com.cn/product/1030510.html
~1260$
And that config much faster(from PSU) then M3 Max Macbook 16 Pro 2023...=)

Yeah you were so nervous we will notice you lied again that you've even posted it to wrong thread, loser.

Quote from: NikoB on November 29, 2023, 19:17:41And that config much faster(from PSU) then M3 Max Macbook 16 Pro 2023...=)

You've made like 6 typos in the word "slower".

Our dear clown A, I can buy it, this particular config in the local marketplace with a 1-year warranty for $1300 including shipping costs.

DDR5 2x32GB 5600 (it will easily work like a 5200) costs $210 at my local store with a 10 year warranty.

SSD drives for every taste with a 5-year warranty. So it all depends on your desires - 2-4GB without problems up to $300.

Yes, unfortunately, you can't install 128-256GB on Zen4, only on Zen4 Phoenix, but I think this is not a super problem, considering that your beautiful M3 Max with 128GB on board costs more than $9,000.

1300+210+450-500$ (2x4Tb SSD with 5 year warranty) - 2000$,

So for $9000 you can easily buy fully packaged 4 pieces of L5Pro with 7945HX+4060+64GB/8TB.

Q.E.D.

Turn off the bot and don't embarrass yourself anymore. If you were hoping to get money from Apple, then there will be no bonus for November.

Quote from: NikoB on November 29, 2023, 21:08:32Our dear clown A, I can buy it, this particular config in the local marketplace with a 1-year warranty for $1300 including shipping costs.

Bs

Quote from: NikoB on November 29, 2023, 21:08:32DDR5 2x32GB 5600 (it will easily work like a 5200) costs $210 at my local store with a 10 year warranty.

+$210

Quote from: NikoB on November 29, 2023, 21:08:32SSD drives for every taste with a 5-year warranty. So it all depends on your desires - 2-4GB without problems up to $300.

+$300

Still $1200, clown?

Quote from: NikoB on November 29, 2023, 21:08:321300+210+450-500$ (2x4Tb SSD with 5 year warranty) - 2000$,

So yeah, $1200 was bs.

Quote from: NikoB on November 29, 2023, 21:08:32So for $9000 you can easily buy fully packaged 4 pieces of L5Pro with 7945HX+4060+64GB/8TB.

Why do you even need 4 bad laptops.

What an embarassment you are.

I just see how "A"'s a** is burning. I can just see how he emits rays of hatred (or diarrhea) from the way he shamefully flushed himself into the toilet. =)))

Good night clown A. Tomorrow you will be more fun...

Quote from: NikoB on November 29, 2023, 21:27:19I just see how "A"'s a** is burning. I can just see how he emits rays of hatred (or diarrhea) from the way he shamefully flushed himself into the toilet. =)))

Smh

Quote from: NikoB on November 29, 2023, 19:17:41The PROOF from China official site of Lenovo:
mitem.lenovo.com.cn/product/1030510.html
~1260$
And that config much faster(from PSU) then M3 Max Macbook 16 Pro 2023...=)

Who in their right mind would compare a premium laptop to a cheap gaming laptop? A person who chooses a business or workload premium laptop will never consider a cheap gaming series, because he have requirements that gaming series laptops in no way meet. And all laptops that meet them requirements, that on Windows that on MacOS cost comparable money.
Also, no one in their right mind does not buy the maximum configuration of laptops, only a couple percent of people do it, I'm talking about the configuration MBP 16 M3 Max/128Gb/8Tb for $7200.
More sensible people buy the base version, and expand the storage with DAS or NAS if necessary.

That's why the basic MacBook Pro 16" for $3500 and $4000 are expensive, but compared to the real competitors, MacBook cost are either equal or higher by 20% at most. Also even more people have enough basic MacBook 14" M3 Pro for much less money $2000-2400 or $2800 if more memory is required.

Yes I realize that there are many people who find the cheap gaming series of laptops more attractive, but it is extremely primitive of them to think that their requirements fit all people and those who have requirements do not fit for cheap gaming laptops are apparently fools.

The bottom line is that the main goal of all company is to make money, and all companies operate in a highly competitive market and do not take the price of their products from the ceiling. If you look at it, Chinese companies have also learned to make premium things, but suddenly it turns out that their cost is roughly equal to the cost of Apple products. Take a look at the Huawei MateBook X Pro, which is an analog of the MacBook Air
Lenovo with all due respect has no analogs MacBook Pro 16", only partially can compete with it Lenovo Slim Pro 9 cost start from $2200 or Lenovo Yoga Pro 9i 16 which costs $2900 for the configuration  i9-13905H/32Gb/1Tb/RTX4060.

Pluses in competing laptops on Windows are expandability of memory and storage and Nvidia cards with much better performance in games (but such laptops are not bought for gaming) and some GPU workloads, but not all.
But there are also some of disadvantages compared to MacBook: the autonomy of work under the usual average load is 2-3 times less, (AMD has a chance to change that, but so far laptop manufacturers haven't taken advantage of it), the performance in battery operation is significantly reduced, the weight of the laptop + power adapter is too much, the MacBook in most cases I take with me without power adapter and it lasts me a full day.

Here's a list of AMD Ryzen 7040-powered laptops:
docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ap-mGyrNt723EO5v3B1nCW44R0XVMmOATpR-VZAXNgs/edit?pli=1#gid=0
In order to compete with MBP 16, the requirements for the laptop are as follows weight about 2 kg for 16" and 1.6 for 14", with quality Mini LED or OLED-display, battery life about 10 hours, with Thunderbolt 4 or USB-C 4 40Gbps port, high-quality, preferably not plastic unibody case, good sound system, keyboard and touchpad not worse than in MacBook Pro. 

In order to compete with MBP 16 M3 Max the laptop should have AMD 7945HX or 7845HX processors and meet the other requirements listed above. It doesn't have any real competitors to the Macbook Pro 16 on M3 Max yet. So far, the only one that can get on this list is the ROG Zephyrus Duo 16, but its weight, dimensions and battery life are of course much worse. Asus ProArt Studiobook Pro 16 OLED not released on 7945HX yet.

There are very tentative competitors to the MacBook Pro 16 with M3 Pro processors, as the performance of the Ryzen 9 7940HS is on par with the M3, not the Pro version. The MBP 16 with M3 Pro 18Gb/1Tb costs $2700, 36Gb/1Tb costs $3100. An MBP 16 M3 laptop if they released one would be $400 cheaper, meaning the MBP 16 M3/16Gb/1Tb should cost $2300 and the 16 M3/32Gb/1Tb should cost $2700
So these are laptops like:
Asus ZenBook Pro 15 OLED 7940HS - no such thing yet, on Intel CPU it cost for version 16Gb/1Tb around $2000
Lenovo ThinkPad Z16 Gen 2 OLED 7940HS 64Gb/1Tb - $2939
HP EliteBook 865 G10 7840HS (but only have 1080p IPS display) 32Gb/1Tb - $3360
Acer Swift X 16 OLED 7940HS 16Gb/1Tb - $1600 (Bingo, we finally found a laptop much cheaper, but wait, it have only 16Gb memory soldered on board. With Windows in 2023 it's not enought, 76 Wh battery will give a maximum of 50 % working time compared to MBP. From review: Not gaming I get 3-4 hrs of doing normal web surfing.)

The competitor of MacBook Pro 14 with M3 Pro processor should have 7845HX processor and meet the other requirements listed above. There are no such notebooks yet either.

But there are competitors to the MacBook Pro 14 with the M3 processor. These are ultrabooks on AMD 7940HS or 7840HS processors, their list and cost can be calculated by yourself.
Total it turns out that the real competitors do not cost much cheaper.

All this does not justify any storage upselling.

(It is your preference to disregard IPS.)

Quote from: Eugene on December 11, 2023, 09:47:52There are very tentative competitors to the MacBook Pro 16 with M3 Pro processors, as the performance of the Ryzen 9 7940HS is on par with the M3, not the Pro version.

notebookcheck.net/Apple-MacBook-Pro-16-2023-M3-Pro-review-Efficiency-before-performance.772025.0.html
vs
www.notebookcheck.net/Asus-ROG-Flow-X13-GV302XV-2023-Review-Svelte-gaming-convertible-that-packs-a-punch-with-AMD-Zen-4-Ryzen-9-7940HS-and-60-W-Nvidia-RTX-4060.742259.0.html

Again a pure lie. The 7940HS is significantly faster M3 Pro.

The rest of the speech is meaningless in the context of what was previously written - the 7945HX is more than 1.5 times faster than the top version of the M3 Max in a cheap laptop for $1200-1300. Fully packaged as I described it still costs around $2000. It was about pure performance, in which Apple loses outright.

Apple wins only in autonomy time and balanced battery performance. That not only has never been disputed by me, but this is precisely what I emphasized. Nevertheless, at the prices that they sell and the upgrade opportunities, most people are not interested in Apple laptops and do not buy them. This is why x86 has reigned supreme on the market for over 30 years. Just like Windows, despite all the efforts of red-eyed figures in Linux.

The market really decided everything. It's Apple's destiny to coopt up wealthy pinocchios and kleptocratic circles in most countries outside the US/EU, and even there, more than half of the population does not buy Apple. What any expert familiar with the local laptop markets knows.

Quote from: NikoB on December 11, 2023, 11:00:02Again a pure lie. The 7940HS is significantly faster M3 Pro.

Productivity in what, in games or in work tasks? Do you have a Macbook or are you just looking at benchmarks?
When choosing a device, pure performance doesn't make much sense without other parameters.

Apple has never announced or released products in the segment of cheap gaming laptops, it is a completely different product category where other rules apply. If you don't understand how the market works and why devices as rules are segmented into different categories, then there is nothing to talk to you about.
As for the fact that most people buy cheap windows laptops, I think it is quite obvious, but not because they are better, but because they don't have money for more expensive and better devices.

I just gave you an example that devices from one premium segment are quite expensive regardless of the manufacturer, be it HP, Dell, Lenovo, Asus or Apple, everyone prices their products quite expensive. But other manufacturers also have a line of cheap laptops and Apple does not, they are not interested in that market. But whining that Apple doesn't make laptops in the cheap segment is unhealthy.

Quote from: Eugene on December 11, 2023, 09:47:52Lenovo with all due respect has no analogs MacBook Pro 16",

ThinkPad P1, literal direct competitor (better in some ways, worse in some other ways, they are very equal overall). Same as the X1 Carbon is there to compete with all variants of the MacBook Air and some MB Pros 14.

Quote from: Neenyah on December 11, 2023, 13:01:23ThinkPad P1, literal direct competitor

Yes, good variant:
ThinkPad P1 Gen 6 CPU i7-13800H (performance roughly equal to M3 Pro), GPU NVIDIA® RTX™ 3500 (performance between RTX 4070 and 4080 laptop, yes it faster then M3 Max GPU), 32Gb RAM, 1Tb SSD, 4k OLED (but only 400 nits and 60Hz) - $3249

How greedy is Lenovo, why didn't they make it price the same as a cheap $1200-$1500 gaming laptop?

Quote from: Eugene on December 11, 2023, 14:08:17How greedy is Lenovo, why didn't they make it the same as a cheap $1200-$1500 gaming laptop?

P1 G6 has also a 165 Hz screen option (https://psref.lenovo.com/Product/ThinkPad/ThinkPad_P1_Gen_6) but mate, come on, why are you saying that to me? If you check the previous convo (not sure if it was here or in another M3 MBP thread) you will see that I was also genuinely amused by that nonexisting $1200 gaming laptop ($2000 is closer to its current offer but NikoB is conveniently forgetting import taxes, VAT and stuff like that, just to push his narrative).

Edit: Here it is. (https://www.notebookchat.com/index.php?topic=183825.msg563141#msg563141)

Quote from: Neenyah on November 29, 2023, 13:53:06

Quote from: NikoB on November 29, 2023, 13:44:21Right now I can order L5Pro 7945HX+4060 from many sellers from China for $1200-1300, with free delivery within 2 weeks maximum.

Prices in China for Chinese Lenovo models can be easily checked even by a child.

Mmm, "prices in China for Chinese Lenovo models" are being listed in USD. In China. Sure.
Btw, you live in Somalia or something similar where import taxes are not a thing? I mean you can literally be in China and order something from the US or the EU - and you will pay hefty imports. So...

-

Edit:

I went to check your claims (https://item.lenovo.com.cn/product/1032322.html), NikoB, and, surprise, surprise, you are lying again.

The mentioned model is ¥10148 and that is $1,427.06, not $1,200 as you claim and that's the cheapest Lenovo with 7945HX altogether. Screenshot 😀😀 (https://imgur.com/4yZGV11)

Quote from: Neenyah on December 11, 2023, 14:23:26P1 G6 has also a 165 Hz screen option (https://psref.lenovo.com/Product/ThinkPad/ThinkPad_P1_Gen_6) but mate, come on, why are you saying that to me?

It's not for you, it for NikoB, also it not my question, for me it good price for good product

Quote from: Eugene on December 11, 2023, 12:34:32As for the fact that most people buy cheap windows laptops, I think it is quite obvious, but not because they are better, but because they don't have money for more expensive and better devices.

Once again, it was not about balancing the parameters of a certain universal laptop, to which Apple is technically closest, but about pure performance - here the x86 wins by a huge margin, including in price.

n terms of absolute performance from the outlet, x86 laptops from AMD are in the lead by a huge margin. This is what I proved earlier, and the difference in price is simply huge - a fully packaged L5Pro with 7945HX+4060 64GB/8TB(4+4) costs around $2000 (I can right now order exactly this configuration from China and adding memory and SSD as Since I'll spend about $2,000 in my country, the problems of customs duties in other countries don't bother me at all), as I wrote. And it will definitely be 1.5 times faster than the top-end Mac 2023 in most scenarios for both work and entertainment, with a difference of more than 3 times in price, at least.

Quote from: NikoB on December 11, 2023, 19:15:04the problems of customs duties in other countries don't bother me at all

Delaware? Caimen Islands? Hm.

Quote from: Eugene on December 11, 2023, 09:47:52Pluses in competing laptops on Windows

Asus ROG Zephyrus M16 (2023) [GU604VY and next] (https://www.notebookcheck.com/Asus-ROG-Zephyrus-M16-2023-im-Laptop-Test-RTX-4090-mit-super-hellem-miniLED-Display.692993.0.html)

• The dimensions (and design) are very similar.
• The battery is the same.
• Asus will have a significant advantage in graphics performance thanks to the 4090.
• Conversely, due to the gluttonous Intel package, the autonomy will be significantly worse than the M3 (especially with light loads).
• The power supply (as well as the consumption itself) is larger on the Asus, although it can also be powered by USB-C 100W.
• The speaker system is as good as in the MacBook Pro.
• An additional touch is a separate "AniMe Matrix" screen.
• Yes, it will cost, most likely, about $1k more than a MacBook (there are also different configurations).
• And somewhat louder in terms of emissions.
• However, it can be serviced, components can be changed, and it has a better screen (it already has a matte MiniLED with good speed).

So there is actually an alternative.
The question is what is more critical for the consumer: autonomy, whether the OS is full-fledged (Windows), omnivorous games and video content (hardware and without dancing with a tambourine), or portability.

Savings in neither of them will be significant.
In one, the price is better at first, but the service is worse. Otherwise, there is native support for the OS, where there is a variety of programs that may be more profitable than for apple counterparts.
One will be more suitable for specialists of narrow use of laptops. The other laptop is fine for anything, but it's louder.