NotebookCHECK - Notebook Forum

Funny you should mention this...

You see NOT EVERYONE uses their computers for 'internet' related tasks.

My installation of Open Office is able to run just fine on WIN7. The 90's and 00's era Lazer printers can still print out documents authored with OO and those documents can be shared via a NAS on my local LAN just fine.

Ditto with my handful of DSLR cameras with OEM and expensive photo editing software. They all run just fine in WIN7.

Computer games? Ok, you go me there as I got suckered into 'Steam' and I don't own DVD's for all of them. BTW: does it matter that NONE of them are 'online' or 'multiplayer' at all? Other then the ones I regrettably purchased from Steam they all work fine and don't require a 'network connection'.

Since at least 2010 most (if not ALL) computers get connections via a local LAN behind a hardware firewall. Firefox has 'no script' & no-advertising plugin's that can dramatically reduce its potential exposure to harm if taken out on the web.

Computers that have older OS's don't "just stop working" because there are newer versions available. (Typed on a 13" 2013 MBP with OSX10.13.6 and using Firefox 115.7.0esr)

I wonder how much landfill waste can be attributed to "planned obsolescence" of otherwise perfectly good electronic products?

Oh, the v5-131! <3
I used one as a daily driver for a few years, loved it! (to be fair it was an Aspire One 756, same chassis with a different name, AKA Travelmate B113)

BTW there's one thing I do not understand: why keeping it 32 bit on a machine equipped with 8GB of RAM? Windows 7 benefitted from more than 3-4GB

Windows 7 sucks. The 32-bit version is faster than the 64-bit version BUT many .NET apps will throw an out of memory error with only 4GB USABLE memory in the system.

Windows 8.1 is much better than 7.  Sure it doesn't look as pretty as 7 and the Metro start menu is weird as hell, but the x64 version is just as fast as the x86 version!

QuoteYou see NOT EVERYONE uses their computers for 'internet' related tasks.

I see, George! It's just I mainly use my laptop to do actual work that I get actual money for. If I wasn't connected to the Internet, I would not be able to check my inbox, send Discord messages, use the TYPO3 CMS and do other things that I normally do.

Quoteas I got suckered into 'Steam' and I don't own DVD's for all of them

I deleted my Steam account a couple of years ago. It was a freaking piece of spyware that was really slowing my system down. I now consider myself free to download cracked versions of the games I had purchased. Heck, I paid for those products so I have a right to use them the way I want to.

QuoteNONE of them are 'online' or 'multiplayer' at all

CS:GO and other competitive games sure require one to be connected to the Internet all the time. Most games do not, thankfully!

QuoteComputers that have older OS's don't "just stop working" because there are newer versions available

No, they do not but at one point they become so slow, one has no choice but to purchase a new system. Software ages too, slowly but surely becoming incompatible with the latest standards and file formats and so on. It's not necessarily about planned obsolescence. (I do agree that Big Tech companies want us to buy new phones/tablets/computers every year.)

QuoteI used one as a daily driver for a few years, loved it

It's a great little laptop! The screen is a little dull - after all, most laptops sold these days have 100% sRGB panels and this one delivers something like 60%. But it isn't a deal breaker.

What do you use now if you do not mind me asking?

Quotewhy keeping it 32 bit on a machine equipped with 8GB of RAM? Windows 7 benefitted from more than 3-4GB

The laptop would not let me install 64-bit Windows 7. Windows 8.1 worked; Windows 10 worked; Windows 7 - "close but no cigar". Either way, there are several patchers out there that let 32-bit Windows 7 installations make use of more than 3 GB of RAM.

QuoteSure it doesn't look as pretty as 7 and the Metro start menu is weird as hell

You're right! It does not & it is.

Windows 8.1 comes with just one or two pre-installed themes and no "sample music". Sure, it is better at managing drivers and devices than Windows 7 is but other than that I do not really like the OS. It's a question of personal preference more than anything else.

At the moment, LTSB is a direct replacement for W7 for old hardware. But unfortunately, it does not have a classic theme with compact window buttons (without a dll system patch), so professionally packaged UI interfaces of various professional software simply will not fit on the screen with the same resolution as in W7 with the classic theme.

And the main problem (due to the fault of the scoundrels in M$) of the classic W7 theme is the lack of V-Sync support in browsers and when displaying outside the Overlay surface in players. Which is extremely painful for users.

So there is only one way out today - install LSTB and patch system dlls for the classic theme with compact window control buttons.

Alas, all versions of Windows, starting from 8+, can be considered amateurish, made for housewives, not professionals, precisely for this reason - the inability to fix the Windows shell the way they need.

Or switch to an even more buggy and unfinished Linux.

Using a Windows OS that hasn't gotten security updates in years is a monumentally horrid idea.

Quote from: hfm on January 31, 2024, 15:48:18Using a Windows OS that hasn't gotten security updates in years is a monumentally horrid idea.

If you don't know basics of how to stay safe (online) then yes, true.

Quote from: hfm on January 31, 2024, 15:48:18Using a Windows OS that hasn't gotten security updates in years is a monumentally horrid idea.

It is ok if only used offline.

Quote from: NikoB on January 31, 2024, 14:31:19So there is only one way out today - install LSTB and patch system dlls for the classic theme with compact window control buttons.

Alas, all versions of Windows, starting from 8+, can be considered amateurish, made for housewives, not professionals, precisely for this reason - the inability to fix the Windows shell the way they need.

Yeah, true professionals spend their days at work starring into interface of their Windows, not in their professional apps. I just don't know why do huge names and multi-billion companies like ABB are so amateur-ish and housewife-ish to make their pro software like the Automation Builder just for Windows 10 and 11 (and Server, of course) (https://new.abb.com/plc/automationbuilder/platform/software), hmm. Mysteries of this world... 🤔

"Operating systems   
Windows 11 (32/64 Bit) Professional/Enterprise,
Windows 10 (32/64 Bit) Professional/Enterprise,
Windows Server 2012 R2 64 Bit, Windows Server 2019"

Quote from: Sеrgey on January 31, 2024, 09:11:39

QuoteYou see NOT EVERYONE uses their computers for 'internet' related tasks.

I see, George! It's just I mainly use my laptop to do actual work that I get actual money for. If I wasn't connected to the Internet, I would not be able to check my inbox, send Discord messages, use the TYPO3 CMS and do other things that I normally do.

Quoteas I got suckered into 'Steam' and I don't own DVD's for all of them

I deleted my Steam account a couple of years ago. It was a freaking piece of spyware that was really slowing my system down. I now consider myself free to download cracked versions of the games I had purchased. Heck, I paid for those products so I have a right to use them the way I want to.

QuoteNONE of them are 'online' or 'multiplayer' at all

CS:GO and other competitive games sure require one to be connected to the Internet all the time. Most games do not, thankfully!

QuoteComputers that have older OS's don't "just stop working" because there are newer versions available

No, they do not but at one point they become so slow, one has no choice but to purchase a new system. Software ages too, slowly but surely becoming incompatible with the latest standards and file formats and so on. It's not necessarily about planned obsolescence. (I do agree that Big Tech companies want us to buy new phones/tablets/computers every year.)

Ahhh... you see even if I were not RETIRED, MY computers are 'home use' and when I worked for someone, I used THEIR computers. (and could not care any less which OS or patch level was on THEIR computers) :)

OS's don't slow down by themselves, MS fubars them with patches! (my XP & WIN7 boxes run the same speed as they did new)

Sure, the entire industry/world's economy runs on everyone replacing their electronics every 12-36mo's even if there is nothing wrong with them. <groan>

Yes, as time goes on newer stuff won't run on older OS's and hardware. That is a given.

It is ONLY a problem IF you actually need/want to run newer stuff.

:)

Quote from: Sеrgey on January 31, 2024, 09:13:45It's a great little laptop! The screen is a little dull - after all, most laptops sold these days have 100% sRGB panels and this one delivers something like 60%. But it isn't a deal breaker.

What do you use now if you do not mind me asking?

Yeah, it is not (as they aren't those little horrid speakers! :D). After all my actual A515-44 still has a comfortable but still dull screen!

QuoteThe laptop would not let me install 64-bit Windows 7. Windows 8.1 worked; Windows 10 worked;

Huh, what a shame! In fact, I used it with Win 10 no problem.
I recall I used to read about those patches but never happened to use them, I just could switch to the 64 bit version.

Quote from: Neenyah on January 31, 2024, 16:13:45If you don't know basics of how to stay safe (online) then yes, true.

Agree. I used XP on the internet for a long time after it was expired and never had any problem.

@Sergey - you should switch it to Linux, it will run much smoother than windows 7 and you get security updates still

Quote from: George on January 31, 2024, 01:59:02Funny you should mention this...

You see NOT EVERYONE uses their computers for 'internet' related tasks.

My installation of Open Office is able to run just fine on WIN7. The 90's and 00's era Lazer printers can still print out documents authored with OO and those documents can be shared via a NAS on my local LAN just fine.

Ditto with my handful of DSLR cameras with OEM and expensive photo editing software. They all run just fine in WIN7.

Computer games? Ok, you go me there as I got suckered into 'Steam' and I don't own DVD's for all of them. BTW: does it matter that NONE of them are 'online' or 'multiplayer' at all? Other then the ones I regrettably purchased from Steam they all work fine and don't require a 'network connection'.

Since at least 2010 most (if not ALL) computers get connections via a local LAN behind a hardware firewall. Firefox has 'no script' & no-advertising plugin's that can dramatically reduce its potential exposure to harm if taken out on the web.

Computers that have older OS's don't "just stop working" because there are newer versions available. (Typed on a 13" 2013 MBP with OSX10.13.6 and using Firefox 115.7.0esr)

I wonder how much landfill waste can be attributed to "planned obsolescence" of otherwise perfectly good electronic products?

OpenOffice? Why not switch to LibreOffice? It got far more updates since

Overall though, I suggest switching to Linux, it runs much faster and smoother. If you have some windows apps you need, WINE via proton or playonlinux and other such tools makes running them easier, and you can always run them in a Windows VM.

Quote from: A on February 01, 2024, 11:46:40OpenOffice? Why not switch to LibreOffice?

LibreOffice is not for all purposes better than OpenOffice. Some do not work well on LibreOffice but work on OpenOffice. Or maybe LibreOffice has caught up by now? I still use OpenOffice because it works for my purposes while, last time I checked, LibreOffice failed.

Quote from: RobertJasiek on February 01, 2024, 13:34:19

Quote from: A on February 01, 2024, 11:46:40OpenOffice? Why not switch to LibreOffice?

LibreOffice is not for all purposes better than OpenOffice. Some do not work well on LibreOffice but work on OpenOffice. Or maybe LibreOffice has caught up by now? I still use OpenOffice because it works for my purposes while, last time I checked, LibreOffice failed.

Strange. It's completely reverse actually. Approximately 10 years ago OpenOffice got stuck in development. It was somewhere around version 3.5 or 4.0, which wasn't updated like forever (a couple of years). It was like development was completely given up, while LibreOffice continued developing features and fixing bugs. That's also why I switched to LibreOffice. Now I checked the OpenOffice website again, and it seems they are again releasing some OpenOffice versions. Not sure this makes sense anymore, because they must be years behind.

That being said, I would have to do an indepth evaluation again, as "adding new features" (LibreOffice) doesn't necessarily mean it is a better product (it could also be more bloated). Still unlikely I'll change back...

Quote from: RobertJasiek on January 31, 2024, 16:19:36

Quote from: hfm on January 31, 2024, 15:48:18Using a Windows OS that hasn't gotten security updates in years is a monumentally horrid idea.

It is ok if only used offline.

This is the only 99% valid answer. Any other answer is just an admission of how much you don't actually know about security.

QuoteLTSB is a direct replacement for W7

A direct replacement? I don't think so. Besides, how many of us actually have a Windows 10 Enterprise license?

QuoteOS's don't slow down by themselves, MS fubars them with patches!

I mostly agree. Some of the updates are actually useful but most of them are not. Actually, I fully believe that the same goes for Apple. Mac OS X used to look great, it was a simple and fun to use OS several years ago. Today, it's a bloated mess. Concepts such as notification center work great for smartphones and tablets but on a desktop/laptop, I'd rather have unobtrusive Windows XP-style pop-ups, and just a generally distraction-free environment that is active by default, as in, one that does not require the user to change a gazillion of settings.

QuoteYeah, it is not (as they aren't those little horrid speakers! :D). After all my actual A515-44 still has a comfortable but still dull screen!

The speakers on the V5-131 are a joke indeed. Thankfully, decent portable Bluetooth speakers such as the Sony SRS-XB13 that I use daily are fairly affordable these days. I purchased a $6 USB Bluetooth dongle and now it's no problem to listen to a Web radio station whenever people living in adjacent apartments start making too much noise. (I have to boot Windows 8.1 or Windows 10 to do that because Bluetooth speakers/headphones are not really natively supported by Windows 7. Usually, 3rd party software is required to set things up because the built-in Bluetooth stack is very, very basic.)

An Aspire A515-44? It's powered by a Ryzen 4xxx processor, correct? I hope you'll be able to get many years of use out of it. It's so unfortunate that the screen is dull. The industry is seemingly not yet ready to wave goodbye to IPS and TN panels and embrace the OLED technology, unfortunately.

QuoteI used XP on the internet for a long time after it was expired and never had any problem.

That was quite a lot of time ago, right?

It is not really possible to use Windows XP on laptops released after 2011 or so. There will be no suitable graphics driver, no suitable Wi-Fi adapter driver and so on. Those using desktop PCs are a lot more lucky. Nvidia's GeForce GT 1030, GTX 1050, GTX 1060, GTX 1070 and GTX 1080 grahics cards are fully supported on Windows XP; Nvidia still sells the first two options and you can actually play many games using either one.

That being said, Chrome 49 and other browsers released in 2016 or 2017 (that's when most software developers flipped XP and Vista off) are useless at this point. They won't be able to load/display most Web pages correctly.

Quoteyou should switch it to Linux, it will run much smoother than windows 7 and you get security updates still

I have tried using several Linux distros. Most of them look plain terrible. Some (Elementary, Deepin, Feren) look fine but are slow, or buggy, or both. Last time I installed Elementary, that was in mid 2023 I think, it worked great out of the box and I enjoyed using it for two or three days. Then, I got tired of seeing the "You have XX updates to install" notification and downloaded/installed the damn updates. Doing that broke my Wi-Fi. I was not able to connect to the Internet until I removed Elementary from the SSD and installed Windows 10.

QuoteOpenOffice? Why not switch to LibreOffice?

Windows Wordpad and Windows Notepad work fine for writing short articles. For everything else, I use Google Docs and Google Sheets.

Quote from: Sеrgey on February 03, 2024, 10:47:21A direct replacement? I don't think so. Besides, how many of us actually have a Windows 10 Enterprise license?

All version W10/11 free for home use.

Quote from: Sеrgey on February 03, 2024, 10:47:21I'd rather have unobtrusive Windows XP-style pop-ups, and just a generally distraction-free environment that is active by default, as in, one that does not require the user to change a gazillion of settings.

Like all professionals, but their opinion no longer cares about M$ - they are not the target audience even in the Enterprise versions, no matter how funny/sad it is.

Quote from: Sеrgey on February 03, 2024, 10:47:21Nvidia's GeForce GT 1030, GTX 1050, GTX 1060, GTX 1070 and GTX 1080 grahics cards are fully supported on Windows XP

It's a lie. Latest NVidia cards that are supported at the 9xx driver level. For AMD it is 2xx.
At the same time, drivers for 2008 cards under W7 still work in W11...

Quote from: Sеrgey on February 03, 2024, 10:47:21sed in 2016 or 2017 (that's when most software developers flipped XP and Vista off) are useless at this point.

As I have already written many times - version 49 of Chrome was the last in which it was possible to enable sharp fonts with normal grayscale anti-aliasing (as in XP) - by disabling the ugly Direct Write.

Starting from version 50 - all Chrome users on PC, if they do not have a monitor with a ppi above 220 - 100% spoil their eyesight.

And only FF up to version 68 could use the correct grayscale anti-aliasing, as in XP. Starting from version 69 this is also not possible. But unlike the bastard Chrome/Edge, you can turn off anti-aliasing altogether. That's why I've had FF as my main browser for many years. I am forced to use Chrome only on sites where there is no normal support for html standards (i.e. the developers are stupid/lazy idiots who write only for the Chrome engine), on YouTube - so the creatures from Google, using criminal anti-market methods, deliberately block the normal operation of YouTube under FF and then when I need automatic translation of sites from another language, this is a key drawback of FF, because it does not have built-in translator integration, like Chrome with Google Translator, which is very sad.

It is thanks to these 3 sad shortcomings that you have to keep the crappy Chrome browser on your computers, which is otherwise completely inferior to Firefox. And in terms of the clarity of fonts - the defeat of Google/Chrome/M$/Edge is simply catastrophic - only an idiot can use Chrome as the main browser for a computer with a screen whose ppi is significantly lower than 220+.

Quote from: Sеrgey on February 03, 2024, 10:47:21I have tried using several Linux distros. Most of them look plain terrible. Some (Elementary, Deepin, Feren) look fine but are slow, or buggy, or both. Last time I installed Elementary, that was in mid 2023 I think, it worked great out of the box and I enjoyed using it for two or three days. Then, I got tired of seeing the "You have XX updates to install" notification and downloaded/installed the damn updates. Doing that broke my Wi-Fi. I was not able to connect to the Internet until I removed Elementary from the SSD and installed Windows 10.

Exactly. Linux is for red-eyed nerds and those who, through its support, are just trying to find a job in IT and increase their reputation in their resume for a job search. In all other cases, as a desktop OS it is completely miserable, in all variants. That is why no one needs it even after 25 years, except for servers where paid employees of large companies finish and maintain its distributions on their own.

Quote from: Sеrgey on February 03, 2024, 10:47:21Windows Wordpad and Windows Notepad work fine for writing short articles. For everything else, I use Google Docs and Google Sheets

A lot of professional software requires DDE, which is not available for Linux (and professional software itself too). Therefore, there is simply no alternative to Microsoft Office in the Linux world and there will not be in the near future.

Only an idiot uses the cloud and cloud services to write private correspondence.

QuoteIt's a lie. Latest NVidia cards that are supported at the 9xx driver level.

Oops. You're right, NikoB. GeForce 10xx cards are compatible with Windows 7 but not with Windows XP. My bad.

Quoteversion 49 of Chrome was the last in which it was possible to enable sharp fonts with normal grayscale anti-aliasing (as in XP)

Sleipnir and a few other modern Web browsers let you adjust font rendering and, technically, you can just disable the "make fonts smoother" options in Windows Explorer to make your fonts super-sharp no matter the application. (Super-sharp and super-ugly at the same time.)

Quote"make fonts smoother" options

option not options.

QuoteOnly an idiot uses the cloud and cloud services to write private correspondence.

Private correspondence? If you mean article drafts then I personally do not see anything wrong with storing those in the cloud. The texts will soon be published on Notebookcheck for everyone to see anyway so what if Google can have a sneak peek at them? It's not a big deal.

We would not be able to keep Notebookcheck running without Google ads.

Quote from: Sеrgey on February 03, 2024, 10:47:21I have tried using several Linux distros. Most of them look plain terrible. Some (Elementary, Deepin, Feren) look fine but are slow, or buggy, or both. Last time I installed Elementary, that was in mid 2023 I think, it worked great out of the box and I enjoyed using it for two or three days. Then, I got tired of seeing the "You have XX updates to install" notification and downloaded/installed the damn updates. Doing that broke my Wi-Fi. I was not able to connect to the Internet until I removed Elementary from the SSD and installed Windows 10.

Generally, the recommended starter distro for those new to Linux is Linux Mint. Cinnamon if you have a good PC, MATE if you have an old one. If you like Ferin like interface that is KDE Plasma, and most popular KDE Plasma are OpenSuse KDE, Fedora KDE and Kubuntu

That said, you have Nvidia which historically has bad drivers which is likely the source of your slowness issues. You want a distro that will install the proprietary Nvidia drivers for you for smoothest experience like Linux Mint, if you still have issues, upgrade to latest 6.X kernel in their kernel manager

QuoteWindows Wordpad and Windows Notepad work fine for writing short articles. For everything else, I use Google Docs and Google Sheets.

I was referring to the person above saying they use OpenOffice which is pretty much a less updated LibreOffice. With LanguageTool it also does grammar checking (highly suggest ngrams and word2vec for better grammar checking)

Quote from: NikoB on February 03, 2024, 12:36:31A lot of professional software requires DDE, which is not available for Linux (and professional software itself too). Therefore, there is simply no alternative to Microsoft Office in the Linux world and there will not be in the near future.

By DDE you mean Dynamic Data Exchange? LibreOffice does support it just fine.

That said, I will note even MS doesn't recommend using DDE as it is a big security risk, hence why it is disabled unless explicitly enabled on MS Office and recommends to use OLE instead

Quote from: NikoB on February 03, 2024, 12:36:31lot of professional software requires DDE

HAHAHAHAHA DDE, oh my god, replaced by OLE years ago, and that was long overdue, DDE wasn't exploited only by the blind
typical nbc low-quality commenter

Quote from: Sеrgey on February 04, 2024, 10:05:48Sleipnir and a few other modern Web browsers let you adjust font rendering and, technically, you can just disable the "make fonts smoother" options in Windows Explorer to make your fonts super-sharp no matter the application. (Super-sharp and super-ugly at the same time.)

You simply do not understand the essence of the problem that I described long ago on dozens of forums and which was also described long ago on the Google bug tracker by many developers, but these scoundrels deliberately ignore a serious problem for vision with incorrect font smoothing.

Any average person can easily check by zooming in on any page in Chrome/Edge/Firefox (default settings) by 400%. There are shadows around the vertical elements of letters that should not exist, which leads to blurring of the text to the eye and damage to vision. And then compare font antialiasing in XP or install Firefox to version 69, disable hardware acceleration (otherwise Direct Write is forced on), and then in about:config enable normal antialiasing mode, as in XP. You will be amazed at the difference by eye.

The majority of the population is illiterate and does not even suspect that it spoils their eyesight on a PC with ppi below 220 in Chrome and Edge under Windows.

In XP (and in FireFox up to version 68), ideal anti-aliasing - grayscale gradient is added only where needed in letter elements. The letters look almost perfect.

In Chrome/Edge there is no way to disable this nasty text smoothing error. But this opportunity exists (ironically) in Linux with the command line switch in Chrome, as its users assure. This key does not work under Windows.

Google doesn't care about Windows users - because... they are not his target platform for theft of personal, private data - his main audience is the owners of Android smartphones, of which there are billions. And on smartphones, ppi has long been above 250, even on cheap ones, so these shadows and dregs in fonts are simply not noticeable if the same incorrect anti-aliasing is going on there.

And only in Firefox you can disable incorrect anti-aliasing altogether - with one param in the about:config settings. It is much clearer for the eyes. Especially on screens with less than 150 ppi and according to statistics, there are more than 80% of screens on the planet...

Quoteyou have Nvidia which historically has bad drivers which is likely the source of your slowness issues

There are three systems in my apartment and they are all powered by integrated Intel graphics adapters.

QuoteYou simply do not understand the essence of the problem

Trust me, I do.

There are several ways to make fonts look better on modern Windows operating systems and modern browsers; one of them is to simply remove the graphics driver and use the basic Microsoft VGA driver. However doing so creates a bunch of various problems, hence my suggestion that you should try Sleipnir. It lets you tweak the way fonts look with just a couple of mouse clicks. This is not a great solution either but it's better than nothing.

Quote from: Sеrgey on February 04, 2024, 16:38:32

Quoteyou have Nvidia which historically has bad drivers which is likely the source of your slowness issues

There are three systems in my apartment and they are all powered by integrated Intel graphics adapters.

QuoteYou simply do not understand the essence of the problem

Trust me, I do.

There are several ways to make fonts look better on modern Windows operating systems and modern browsers; one of them is to simply remove the graphics driver and use the basic Microsoft VGA driver. However doing so creates a bunch of various problems, hence my suggestion that you should try Sleipnir. It lets you tweak the way fonts look with just a couple of mouse clicks. This is not a great solution either but it's better than nothing.

This once again proves that you do not understand the essence, people like you, only need pictures, in words you do not understand the problem.
In Windows you can't disable anything except ClearType - it turns off for me right away. In Chrome/Edge, you cannot disable incorrect defective anti-aliasing. If you
If you know this method, post the instructions.
In Firefox you can. Therefore, it is the single most famous and comfortable browser for the eyes. That's why I've been using it for many years. I only use Chrome for YouTube (because Google deliberately prevents normal operation in Firefox) and crookedly made sites from idiot developers and for automatic translation of pages, which works absolutely everywhere in Chrome, which is not in Firefox and other browsers and when there is another translation option in Firefox does not give quick results.

Quote from: NikoB on February 05, 2024, 12:29:47)))))))
Author, this is just funny. Compare this runt to my Dell G5 5587 15.6" - 2.83 kg and almost 17" body dimensions. This is a truly quiet machine!

Lmao, bro has a brick laptop with a 57% sRGB, 220 nits, 1080p 15.6" panel (https://www.notebookcheck.net/Dell-G5-15-5587-i5-8300H-GTX-1060-Max-Q-SSD-IPS-Laptop-Review.312816.0.html#toc-1) (that's 141 PPI, yes) but is trolling all the time about displays and calling them all s*** with his superior eyesight that's far beyond of what any hawk or owl can even imagine with their shameful eyes.

Quote from: NikoB on February 02, 2024, 12:20:41You are an amateur layman talking complete nonsense.
Only 4k panels at the pixel level are compatible with point-to-point fhd resolution.

That is why your 2.5k is the most idiotic option possible, which I have already written about 100,500 times, but every time there is a new stupid amateur (apparently even a child who has not received a matriculation certificate and does not have basic mathematical training at the elementary school level) who categorically talks nonsense.

2.5k can't even beat the mobile 4090 in 2023 releases in ultra quality, much less the 2024 releases.

2.5k is NOT compatible with 4k and fhd video, because... in both cases there will not be perfect pixel sharpness.

The best screen options are multiples of fhd - 4k, 8k.

We work in 4k/8k with ideally sharp fonts and vector graphics, and play in fhd if fps up to 60 is not enough. Getting a perfectly sharp picture in 4k->fhd, instead of the idiotic 2.5k resolution is incorrect for both games and 4k video/ fhd.

Lol. All that spamming around every damn board and you don't even have anything even close to your "needs". But hey, at least you upgraded from your 768p MSI from 2008, that's at least something 👍

Quote from: NikoB on February 02, 2024, 12:20:41You are an amateur layman talking complete nonsense.
Only 4k panels at the pixel level are compatible with point-to-point fhd resolution.

You have a 1080p, switch to 960x540 - which is exactly 4:1 same as 4K to FHD is 4:1 - and enjoy your clear and sharp image. Oh wait...

Quote from: Neenyah on February 05, 2024, 12:53:27Lmao, bro has a brick laptop with a 57% sRGB, 220 nits, 1080p 15.6" panel (that's 141 PPI, yes) but is trolling all the time about displays and calling them all s*** with his superior eyesight that's far beyond of what any hawk or owl can even imagine with their shameful eyes.

Yeah... I've experienced similar behaviour with friends wanting to purchase a new laptop. The high requirement wasn't the display though, but the dGPU. This one also having a brick from more than a decade ago, now wanted an ubergaming laptop with the best dGPU and everything else is unacceptable or sh**, despite the fact he hardly played games at all and could never use that much power at all.

Not sure where this behaviour comes from, but I guess it's when you sit on the same laptop for too long, and only observe see the progress and features of new devices, your expectations for a new laptop rises at the same pace. And when you finally want to buy one, the requirements for the new laptop are way way above from what they actually need.

Here are a couple of moronic clowns, as usual in the thread. The author lies that the weight and dimensions are huge for 16", to which I rightly objected to him that this is not so - the Dell G5 5587 is even larger and thanks to such weight and dimensions at that time it turned out to be the top machine in terms of silence. The stupid clowns began to look for shortcomings where they are not, as usual...

Quote from: Hotz on February 06, 2024, 11:35:34

Quote from: Neenyah on February 05, 2024, 12:53:27Lmao, bro has a brick laptop with a 57% sRGB, 220 nits, 1080p 15.6" panel (that's 141 PPI, yes) but is trolling all the time about displays and calling them all s*** with his superior eyesight that's far beyond of what any hawk or owl can even imagine with their shameful eyes.

Yeah... I've experienced similar behaviour with friends wanting to purchase a new laptop. The high requirement wasn't the display though, but the dGPU. This one also having a brick from more than a decade ago, now wanted an ubergaming laptop with the best dGPU and everything else is unacceptable or sh**, despite the fact he hardly played games at all and could never use that much power at all.

Not sure where this behaviour comes from, but I guess it's when you sit on the same laptop for too long, and only observe see the progress and features of new devices, your expectations for a new laptop rises at the same pace. And when you finally want to buy one, the requirements for the new laptop are way way above from what they actually need.

That is very weird but it is not unusual, heh. Happens most often with smartphones where people buy current flagships and then don't use anything more than their very basic functions. And with PCs, a lot of people buy hardware, and then are trying to find where and how to use it, what for in terms of apps and other scenarios. I would say it is 50/50 with them against those who buy hardware accordingly to their needs.

In your experience with your friend it is probably that nice feeling that we all used to have when we were kids and we knew that something new is coming (as a present or something similar) plus the fact that their laptop was already old so they wanted to go as high as possible to future-proof it and make sure that 10 years down the line it will feel much better than their current 10-y.o. laptop feels now. There is nothing wrong with that approach, IMHO, going the completely overkill route, as long as one's financials can keep pace with that because going into dumb debts or so just for a piece of tech is not really smart.

Quote from: NikoB on February 06, 2024, 16:10:21Here are a couple of moronic clowns, as usual in the thread.

You are the one who continuously keeps spamming with how 4K downscaling to FHD gives you pixel-perfect image because it's exactly 4x less pixels; well, I will say again - you downscale your 1080p panel to 960x540 and then enjoy your own preaching. That will tell you who is actually a moronic clown here (hint - look at the mirror and you will find him).

Quote from: Neenyah on February 07, 2024, 16:02:18That is very weird but it is not unusual, heh. Happens most often with smartphones where people buy current flagships and then don't use anything more than their very basic functions. And with PCs, a lot of people buy hardware, and then are trying to find where and how to use it, what for in terms of apps and other scenarios. I would say it is 50/50 with them against those who buy hardware accordingly to their needs.

In your experience with your friend it is probably that nice feeling that we all used to have when we were kids and we knew that something new is coming (as a present or something similar) plus the fact that their laptop was already old so they wanted to go as high as possible to future-proof it and make sure that 10 years down the line it will feel much better than their current 10-y.o. laptop feels now. There is nothing wrong with that approach, IMHO, going the completely overkill route, as long as one's financials can keep pace with that because going into dumb debts or so just for a piece of tech is not really smart.

True true...

Quote from: BBOGax on February 13, 2024, 00:32:50Linux on my laptop and Im wondering does it need Antivirus software like windows does?

Wrong question. AV software is only the last means of security. Before, one must establish basic security. And yes, it has become as necessary for Linux as for Windows to set data separation, user access rights, software rules, firewall, think before acting etc.

Quote from: BBOGax on February 13, 2024, 00:32:50does it need Antivirus software like windows does

No

Quote from: asdff on February 13, 2024, 09:37:14No

Hahaha, it is generally useless against zero-day attacks and is a Trojan horse (another layer) in your system, besides slowing down the system for nothing. Only idiots install antivirus software.

Let me remind you that in Windows, all versions and in Linux, all popular distributions - the default basic firewall does NOT block all network activity except what is explicitly allowed. You need to force this filter to be enabled.

The second security failure is that any software that gains root access can easily bypass firewall protection.

Thus, the firewall and the target system must be physically different devices to truly control risks. The firewall, in the OS on the target platform, can only control benign applications, but not malicious ones, that have received root access (a simple yes/no in the same Windows).

Auditing modern code is generally an impossible task for one person or even a serious team (and often the effort for an entire country, most countries of the world), especially if there is no 100% source code. And in Linux there are also no 100% sources of all firmware and drivers, if you want to have a system with up-to-date drivers and firmware for the most modern hardware.

On smartphone OS, everything is a priori an order of magnitude worse - the majority of the population does not have any, even minimal control, in the OS, their data and actions are the property of those who make firmware and smartphones. They themselves, voluntarily, initially, agreed with this policy of the manufacturers.

Quote from: BBOGax on February 13, 2024, 00:32:50Hey guys I am thinking of Installing Linux on my laptop and Im wondering does it need Antivirus software like windows does? Look forward to hearing from you thanks.

No it doesn't

Quote from: NikoB on February 13, 2024, 13:25:51Hahaha, it is generally useless against zero-day attacks and is a Trojan horse (another layer) in your system, besides slowing down the system for nothing. Only idiots install antivirus software.

AV isn't useless, heuristic scans can sometime pick up zero day exploits. On top of that many AVs count the amount of files ran, and are more cautious if you run some exe that few others ran

QuoteLet me remind you that in Windows, all versions and in Linux, all popular distributions - the default basic firewall does NOT block all network activity except what is explicitly allowed. You need to force this filter to be enabled.

Blocking all network activity out of box is crazy for average users. You are bound to run into more problems for average users if you block everything. I've seen no shortage of windows users accidently open up the firewall and think it is a good idea to "block everything" thinking they'd be secure only to complain why their apps aren't working. If you want full security, QubesOS Linux is what you want. You can open up apps with no network access

QuoteThe second security failure is that any software that gains root access can easily bypass firewall protection.

Thus, the firewall and the target system must be physically different devices to truly control risks. The firewall, in the OS on the target platform, can only control benign applications, but not malicious ones, that have received root access (a simple yes/no in the same Windows).

You shouldn't give non-system apps root access to begin with. Linux requires that you enter a password any time you give root access. With containers and flatpaks, you can even give some root access without compromising the system. Of course that isn't perfect, but good enough for most cases. Immutable Linux distros are the future

QuoteAuditing modern code is generally an impossible task for one person or even a serious team (and often the effort for an entire country, most countries of the world), especially if there is no 100% source code. And in Linux there are also no 100% sources of all firmware and drivers, if you want to have a system with up-to-date drivers and firmware for the most modern hardware.

You don't audit the whole thing, you audit changes. And every commit is goes through reviews, both when committed and downstream

There is also open source firmware if you buy computers that have open hardware, coreboot and the like

Quote from: A on February 14, 2024, 07:27:04Blocking all network activity out of box is crazy for average users.

Hahaha, leaky from the start, security is madness for the average user. But this means that the average user is an idiot.

Quote from: A on February 14, 2024, 07:27:04You shouldn't give non-system apps root access to begin with. Linux requires that you enter a password any time you give root access.

Hahaha and Windows too, if the user does not have Administrator privileges. The Yes/No question is asked only to those who possess them, but in reality does not protect him in any way.

Who at home will act as a system administrator if not the user himself? "A", as usual, is engaged in cheap demagoguery.

The "average" user, unlike people like me, will not even understand where it is dangerous and where it is not. Therefore, he will stupidly click "Yes" to the UAC question. Most people don't even check unknown exe (binaries), at least on sites like virustotal. They just launch it and that's it, answering "Yes" to the UAC question, and then everything is elementary for the malware.

Even the OSs themselves are malicious in this regard, until you explicitly create a physically independent firewall that blocks any unauthorized activity. In Windows versions, everything is done in such a way that M$ traffic is simply encrypted so as not to be blocked by such firewalls at the DPI level of analysis. This is exactly what professional security analysts write about.

Linux is Babylon or an oriental bazaar, where there is a complete mess and there is no one to bear any security, much less legal responsibility.

After receiving EVERY new copy of the Linux distribution, the user needs to conduct a full code audit, if he can. But he can't do it 100%, no one can. And to this end, the issue of "security" in Linux is automatically closed as a loss for the user, as well as in the case of user vs. M$. The difference is that in the second case, at least in the case of a legal copy, the owner can still sue the company if they can prove that they suffered damage from their activities. And no agreements that contradict consumer rights laws and civil and criminal codes will help M$ lawyers. The only question is the difficulty of collecting this evidence, but this has already happened in history. But with Linux, there is no one to sue at all - no one is responsible for anything in it. You are on your own and all the developers don't even formally care about you...

Quote from: A on February 14, 2024, 07:27:04you audit changes.

I have already asked the question 100 times - when was the last time a certain "A" conducted a code audit? Not to mention the average person. =)

Quote from: NikoB on February 14, 2024, 13:53:37

Quote from: A on February 14, 2024, 07:27:04Blocking all network activity out of box is crazy for average users.

Hahaha, leaky from the start, security is madness for the average user. But this means that the average user is an idiot.

But products are aimed at average users with options for those technical users who are more than capable of setting whatever setting they want

Quote

Quote from: A on February 14, 2024, 07:27:04You shouldn't give non-system apps root access to begin with. Linux requires that you enter a password any time you give root access.

Hahaha and Windows too, if the user does not have Administrator privileges. The Yes/No question is asked only to those who possess them, but in reality does not protect him in any way.

Who at home will act as a system administrator if not the user himself? "A", as usual, is engaged in cheap demagoguery.

But the main user is generally the administrative user, and someone in your house/work/public place can run something they shouldn't. A yes or no is hardly secure.

QuoteThe "average" user, unlike people like me, will not even understand where it is dangerous and where it is not. Therefore, he will stupidly click "Yes" to the UAC question. Most people don't even check unknown exe (binaries), at least on sites like virustotal. They just launch it and that's it, answering "Yes" to the UAC question, and then everything is elementary for the malware.

That is the problem, OS have to be average user friendly but at same time have safe defaults. Pressing Yes is not a safe default. How many times I had to tell people to stop hitting okay to installing ActiveX components because people just kept hitting okay without thinking.

QuoteEven the OSs themselves are malicious in this regard, until you explicitly create a physically independent firewall that blocks any unauthorized activity. In Windows versions, everything is done in such a way that M$ traffic is simply encrypted so as not to be blocked by such firewalls at the DPI level of analysis. This is exactly what professional security analysts write about.

AVs sometimes handle these things by setting their own ssl certificate, then proxying everything through the AV so they can decode and ssl traffic and scan it for maliciousness. Of course that doesn't handle the privacy issue

QuoteLinux is Babylon or an oriental bazaar, where there is a complete mess and there is no one to bear any security, much less legal responsibility.

Not really, that is only if you get a non-paid linux release. There are enterprise versions from Suse, RedHat and Ubuntu(through a plan) where they take legal responsibility as you are a customer and fully protected under the law

QuoteAfter receiving EVERY new copy of the Linux distribution, the user needs to conduct a full code audit, if he can. But he can't do it 100%, no one can. And to this end, the issue of "security" in Linux is automatically closed as a loss for the user, as well as in the case of user vs. M$. The difference is that in the second case, at least in the case of a legal copy, the owner can still sue the company if they can prove that they suffered damage from their activities. And no agreements that contradict consumer rights laws and civil and criminal codes will help M$ lawyers. The only question is the difficulty of collecting this evidence, but this has already happened in history. But with Linux, there is no one to sue at all - no one is responsible for anything in it. You are on your own and all the developers don't even formally care about you...

Again, you don't need to do an audit yourself unless you want to. Code is reviewed by multiple 3rd parties, from the code reviews when it is merged to security agencies and governments. When a release is made it comes with a checksum to insure validity

Again, there are paid versions of linux. You are confusing open source as all being free with no accountability, but that isn't the case. Open source licenses mostly just mean if software is distributed to you, you have the right to see the source code. That is all. If you buy an enterprise license from Suse, RedHat or Ubuntu. You have same legal rights as you would when you get windows

Quote from: A on February 14, 2024, 14:16:37AVs sometimes handle these things by setting their own ssl certificate, then proxying everything through the AV so they can decode and ssl traffic and scan it for maliciousness. Of course that doesn't handle the privacy issue

M$ doesn't care about these root certificates - they encrypt telemetry and who knows what else with their own hidden key (public), and only they can decrypt these messages transmitted by the OS to M$ with their private key. This is why even the coolest security analysts write that they cannot understand what kind of traffic goes into M$. If they know this, then only the intelligence services of those states to which M$ agreed to provide the OS source code and encryption keys. Guess what are the chances for an individual or a small-medium company to gain access to this? None. 0%. In Linux, the situation is the opposite - with the apparent presence of source code (but again this is not 100% code, but only part of it, since drivers (the most productive and fully functional) for actual hardware are also closed binaries), its volume is as follows: that no one is able to carry out constant monitoring, i.e. audit of this code. Not to mention the gullible "average" users, for whom Linux a priori represents an extremely dangerous security sieve with an unknown number of third parties to whom their information is leaked. Unlike a commercial product M$, where the person responsible is known in advance. Guess why people still refuse to choose free Linux in favor of the leaky Windows sieve? ;)

Quote from: A on February 14, 2024, 14:16:37But products are aimed at average users with options for those technical users who are more than capable of setting whatever setting they want

Q.E.D.

By the way, here is a good example of the arrogance of corporations using the example of the scoundrels from Google with their filthy Chrome - a living example - in the latest versions of Chrome, three switches for advertising appeared, everyone knows them in the settings, because Now, if you deny Chrome access to the Internet during installation, then disable all three of these items (and a lot of others), and then enable Internet access for Chrome, when you start it again you will immediately find that all these switches are active again and they remain disabled only after being disabled again. Thus, sneaky Google ensures the collection of telemetry unknown to the user, at least for the first time when Chrome has access to the Internet, although the user had already EXPLICITLY prohibited it from being transmitted in the settings. This is pure crime, but this is how Google and other companies steal customer data. Violating your own obligations in the settings. This is pure crime.

Quote from: A on February 14, 2024, 14:16:37Not really, that is only if you get a non-paid linux release. There are enterprise versions from Suse, RedHat and Ubuntu(through a plan) where they take legal responsibility as you are a customer and fully protected under the law

You contradict yourself in previous speeches - this is NOT free software anymore! And this is NOT AVAILABLE to the "ordinary" user.

Quote from: A on February 14, 2024, 14:16:37

Quote from: NikoB on February 14, 2024, 13:53:37

Quote from: A on February 14, 2024, 07:27:04Blocking all network activity out of box is crazy for average users.

Hahaha, leaky from the start, security is madness for the average user. But this means that the average user is an idiot.

But products are aimed at average users with options for those technical users who are more than capable of setting whatever setting they want

Quote

Quote from: A on February 14, 2024, 07:27:04You shouldn't give non-system apps root access to begin with. Linux requires that you enter a password any time you give root access.

Hahaha and Windows too, if the user does not have Administrator privileges. The Yes/No question is asked only to those who possess them, but in reality does not protect him in any way.

Who at home will act as a system administrator if not the user himself? "A", as usual, is engaged in cheap demagoguery.

But the main user is generally the administrative user, and someone in your house/work/public place can run something they shouldn't. A yes or no is hardly secure.

QuoteThe "average" user, unlike people like me, will not even understand where it is dangerous and where it is not. Therefore, he will stupidly click "Yes" to the UAC question. Most people don't even check unknown exe (binaries), at least on sites like virustotal. They just launch it and that's it, answering "Yes" to the UAC question, and then everything is elementary for the malware.

That is the problem, OS have to be average user friendly but at same time have safe defaults. Pressing Yes is not a safe default. How many times I had to tell people to stop hitting okay to installing ActiveX components because people just kept hitting okay without thinking.

QuoteEven the OSs themselves are malicious in this regard, until you explicitly create a physically independent firewall that blocks any unauthorized activity. In Windows versions, everything is done in such a way that M$ traffic is simply encrypted so as not to be blocked by such firewalls at the DPI level of analysis. This is exactly what professional security analysts write about.

AVs sometimes handle these things by setting their own ssl certificate, then proxying everything through the AV so they can decode and ssl traffic and scan it for maliciousness. Of course that doesn't handle the privacy issue

QuoteLinux is Babylon or an oriental bazaar, where there is a complete mess and there is no one to bear any security, much less legal responsibility.

Not really, that is only if you get a non-paid linux release. There are enterprise versions from Suse, RedHat and Ubuntu(through a plan) where they take legal responsibility as you are a customer and fully protected under the law

QuoteAfter receiving EVERY new copy of the Linux distribution, the user needs to conduct a full code audit, if he can. But he can't do it 100%, no one can. And to this end, the issue of "security" in Linux is automatically closed as a loss for the user, as well as in the case of user vs. M$. The difference is that in the second case, at least in the case of a legal copy, the owner can still sue the company if they can prove that they suffered damage from their activities. And no agreements that contradict consumer rights laws and civil and criminal codes will help M$ lawyers. The only question is the difficulty of collecting this evidence, but this has already happened in history. But with Linux, there is no one to sue at all - no one is responsible for anything in it. You are on your own and all the developers don't even formally care about you...

Again, you don't need to do an audit yourself unless you want to. Code is reviewed by multiple 3rd parties, from the code reviews when it is merged to security agencies and governments. When a release is made it comes with a checksum to insure validity

Again, there are paid versions of linux. You are confusing open source as all being free with no accountability, but that isn't the case. Open source licenses mostly just mean if software is distributed to you, you have the right to see the source code. That is all. If you buy an enterprise license from Suse, RedHat or Ubuntu. You have same legal rights as you would when you get windows

You have gone in a vicious circle again. Do you remember where you started? That in the absence of developer responsibility to you, as is the case with free versions of Linux, you yourself are obliged to audit the code. But the "ordinary" user and even a professional are not capable of this, because... This task is non-trivial and extremely labor-intensive even for a team of professionals.

Trust someone in the modern world? This is just naivety and idiocy.

This is why the vast majority of the world's inhabitants choose Windows, despite its formal paid nature. Even in pirated installations, users are well aware that M$ has much more responsibility for the operation of the code than the community of Linux developers, who have no responsibility at all. Otherwise, everyone would have long ago fled to where it was more profitable, right? But users do not see any benefit in free Linux. And because of the reality of a completely leaky and poorly made OS and because of the lack of a lot of commercial convenient software, which can also be delivered in the form of a pirated installation and which is simply not available on Linux.

People are constantly looking for benefits and choose what they consider more profitable. It's simple. Linux lost miserably. It has not increased its share in the desktop OS market over the past almost 30 years. But Torvalds became a billionaire. He's certainly great.

Quote from: NikoB on February 14, 2024, 19:32:00In Linux, the situation is the opposite - with the apparent presence of source code (but again this is not 100% code, but only part of it, since drivers (the most productive and fully functional) for actual hardware are also closed binaries),

There are open source drivers and open hardware, like System76, Framework is also working towards it.

Quoteits volume is as follows: that no one is able to carry out constant monitoring, i.e. audit of this code.  Not to mention the gullible "average" users, for whom Linux a priori represents an extremely dangerous security sieve with an unknown number of third parties to whom their information is leaked

Of course you can... I mean data is sent over network, you can monitor where the network traffic is going...

Quote. Unlike a commercial product M$, where the person responsible is known in advance.

How would you know who the culprit is in advanced if the source of it is a closed source driver on windows?

QuoteGuess why people still refuse to choose free Linux in favor of the leaky Windows sieve? ;)

Because people buy hardware? Linux isn't an option in most OEMs, if it is an option, it is a hidden option. Asking "Average users" to install operating systems is a bit stretching it

Quote

Quote from: A on February 14, 2024, 14:16:37Not really, that is only if you get a non-paid linux release. There are enterprise versions from Suse, RedHat and Ubuntu(through a plan) where they take legal responsibility as you are a customer and fully protected under the law

You contradict yourself in previous speeches - this is NOT free software anymore! And this is NOT AVAILABLE to the "ordinary" user.

I never once used the word free in this entire thread(I double checked)... other than to say don't confuse open source with free...

QuoteYou have gone in a vicious circle again. Do you remember where you started? That in the absence of developer responsibility to you, as is the case with free versions of Linux, you yourself are obliged to audit the code. But the "ordinary" user and even a professional are not capable of this, because... This task is non-trivial and extremely labor-intensive even for a team of professionals.

You seem to be confused about something. Many distros offer free versions of their paid distro, it just has their proprietary code stripped out, limit security updates to shorter time tables(you can upgrade to keep secure). Your concern was simply keeping people accountable. So I was pointing out that if keeping people accountable is your worry, then paid versions exist. Otherwise, there are free versions which are just as good.

QuoteTrust someone in the modern world? This is just naivety and idiocy.

That is why you don't trust in a single source, you have multiple webs of trust

QuoteThis is why the vast majority of the world's inhabitants choose Windows, despite its formal paid nature. Even in pirated installations, users are well aware that M$ has much more responsibility for the operation of the code than the community of Linux developers, who have no responsibility at all. Otherwise, everyone would have long ago fled to where it was more profitable, right? But users do not see any benefit in free Linux. And because of the reality of a completely leaky and poorly made OS and because of the lack of a lot of commercial convenient software, which can also be delivered in the form of a pirated installation and which is simply not available on Linux.

The majority of the world never "chose" windows, it was chosen for them. As we saw with windows phone, most did not choose it over Android(Linux). Even MeeGo(also Linux) outsold windows phone in same markets it was released

It's like saying you chose to be spied on with windows

QuotePeople are constantly looking for benefits and choose what they consider more profitable. It's simple. Linux lost miserably. It has not increased its share in the desktop OS market over the past almost 30 years. But Torvalds became a billionaire. He's certainly great.

Yet Android(Linux) continues to dominate in all operating systems space, Linux dominates routers alongside its cousin BSD, and most servers are Linux, they also dominate super computers

Linux marketshare in Desktop did grow, from 0.69% in 2009 to 3.82% in 2024

You'd be surprised what choice does. Just having chromebooks sold alongside other desktops, despite how limited they are, chromebooks in US was able to get almost 3x the marketshare of Linux, peaking at 7.58% in 2023 (I use US as an example because not all countries sell chromebooks)

To show how much Linux Desktop can grow given the chance, just look at India which is the country with the biggest population in the world. In 2021, Linux owned 3.6% marketshare, in 2024 it is now at 15.2% marketshare

This is a blatant lie. The majority of the world's population uses a pirated version of Windows. They chose and installed Windows themselves because it is 100 times easier than installing and configuring any Linux distribution. As well as the presence of many convenient and commercial programs that can also be installed pirated. M$ managed to sell sales of no more than 30% of the desktop OS market, the rest of the share belongs to pirated installations, which M$, as I showed above, itself promotes, especially since 2015, when it actually allowed mass illegal (legally) activation on its servers and did nothing about it for 9 years. This clearly speaks of the company's policy - to retain the market at any cost, especially business, allowing massive pirate activations among the population.

If Linux distributions were so popular and easy to install/configure and were full of opportunities to install valuable pirated commercial software, everyone would have forgotten about Windows 15 years ago. But in reality, why are hardware manufacturers in no hurry to write proprietary drivers, much less open source code for the most modern hardware? Only under Windows and that solves everything. If you want modern hardware with full-featured drivers, install Windows. I constantly read forums and reviews of people buying equipment. And no one except specific developers installs Linux distributions if the laptop comes without an OS. And in my country, for example, laptops without OS account for more than 70% of the market. And still everyone installs Windows. Nobody needs free Linux, because Windows, in fact, for home, is also completely free. And the reliability and comfort in it are an order of magnitude higher for the average person.

So your Linux whining is belied by the ruthless reality in which Windows crushes Linux distributions, even when the laptop does not have an OS.

And it is for this same reason that Android easily defeated Windows Phone on smartphones - it was the first and did not depend on the previously accumulated code base. It simply wasn't available for smartphones. But Linux has no chance in the desktop OS market, unless M$ itself destroys Windows.

Quote from: NikoB on February 15, 2024, 14:47:52This is a blatant lie. The majority of the world's population uses a pirated version of Windows.

"As of January 2024, Android, a mobile OS which uses the Linux kernel, is the world's most widely used operating system. It has 41.61% of the global market, followed by Windows with 29.02%"
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_systems
gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share

Please do note, I am pretty sure pirated versions of windows are included in that 29% statistic. It's not like most people running pirated windows are changing their registry values so their OS shows up as Linux or something lol. It very easy to detect a pirated version of windows as still being windows.

Quote from: NikoB on February 15, 2024, 14:47:52everyone would have forgotten about Windows 15 years ago.

People kinda have tbh. I don't know of anyone today who's actually still proud of using windows besides the fact they're able to run programs from 2 decades ago. But when we talk about modern software of *today* windows is a disaster on every front.

My old dad's windows 7 desktop just died. Guess what he replaced it with? Android tablet. My mom had an old windows laptop which she never really used as she's not good with PC's. She no longer has it anymore and just replaced it an iPhone SE, which she actually uses everyday now because it's easy for her to use and understand.

Quote from: NikoB on February 15, 2024, 14:47:52M$ managed to sell sales of no more than 30% of the desktop OS market, the rest of the share belongs to pirated installations

if the laptop comes without an OS. And in my country, for example, laptops without OS account for more than 70% of the market.

even when the laptop does not have an OS.

No, I don't think you understand how these OS stat counters work. They're not counting Microsoft sales of windows OS but actual active users (doesn't matter if they're using valid licenses or not - that's irrelevant). To be an active user, a windows machine simply has to be connected to the internet to count, that's all. Unless you're saying somehow there's a hidden half billion pirate windows users that don't use the internet at all? So I don't understand why this "laptop without an OS" point even matters.

Quote from: NikoB on February 15, 2024, 14:47:52unless M$ itself destroys Windows.

That's exactly what they seem to have done. Well, I guess an argument could be made how intentional it was but regardless.. one cannot ignore that one of the biggest reasons to stay with windows is for gaming and what have they done about that for the last 10 years? Forget about improving it, they've introduced shader compilation stutter. They've actually made it far worse. This is coming from the same company that runs Xbox. Games that run on Xbox and PC run the exact same dx12 code. How on earth they still cannot fix it is beyond me..

The other unintentional part is, I don't think MS realized how much external forces would affect them. By external forces, I mean stuff like the stagnation of x86, gpu prices, x86's poor wattage efficiency or just how much arm would improve, etc. The average person just wants to check email and watch videos on youtube. Why do they need to spend 1200 on a x86 windows machine, when for half the price you can get android/iOS that does the same thing, except with double the battery life, way lighter and no noise/heat? Not to mention far less chance getting virus or crashing.

MS made a huge mistake tying windows down to x86 so much, which resulted in much of this occurring. I think they've realized it now which is why it seems for future Surface devices it's rumored they've gone full on snapdragon x elite with no intel except for enterprise versions. But much like Intel, it's just too late...

The only reason I've not fully switched yet is due to the lack of proper anti-cheat support for online multiplayer games by dev's. But this is only a matter of time and marketshare on desktop. With the rise of steam deck, mac gaming, and just things being targeted to be more open and cross platform then ever, I think eventually this issue will be solved in the not too distant future too.

The market share of Windows on laptops and desktops is more than 75% and this is an indisputable fact. Of this share, more than 70% are pirated versions from individuals. Just like other commercial pirated software for Windows. This is what makes Windows so strong.

The reason why Android is in the lead is obvious - 50%+ of the world's population simply doesn't have even $500 for a laptop. They are poor and all their savings are enough for is a cheap $100-200 smartphone. This is why smartphones have become so widespread. And naturally, a smartphone is simpler, because... everything is preinstalled there, and the tasks of their owners are very primitive. Where the tasks are a little more complicated, the smartphone is immediately thrown (figuratively speaking) into the trash. The advantage of a smartphone is that it is always with you. A truly personal device. But in poor countries, even one smartphone can be used by an entire family in turn, which is why even manufacturers write special versions of firmware that improve comfort when quickly switching user profiles. Which is unthinkable in the developed and rich world.

The second reason why you should not use a smartphone is also trivial - a laptop screen is many times larger and more comfortable for the eyes with an ergonomically adjusted font size and the amount of information displayed at the same time. Not to mention even larger monitor screens. Even 15 years ago. Poor people have no question of any level of comfort. Is it comfortable to watch a movie on a 6" diagonal or scroll through complex desktop versions of websites, view documents in A4 format, PDF, etc.? You won't believe how many millions watch this in poor countries, without even having a large TV at home.

Therefore, in developed countries with a certain income, Windows will remain the key desktop OS, and the complex and dangerous "free" (your lost time = your lost money) Linux will continue to eke out a miserable existence on PCs/laptops.

Windows, like iOS, is most often used in the most prosperous developing countries and developed countries, where incomes allow you to have laptops and PCs at home. And they will never give up the comfort of a laptop/PC in favor of a smartphone with its insignificant screen (albeit very high quality (250ppi+) for text compared to the shameful screens with ppi below 180 in most modern laptops and especially monitors), but not among the 4 billion (minimum) poor people with negligible income and opportunities. For whom a 5-6" tank viewing slit is the only window into the world of the Internet.

Quote from: NikoB on February 15, 2024, 14:47:52This is a blatant lie. The majority of the world's population uses a pirated version of Windows. They chose and installed Windows themselves because it is 100 times easier than installing and configuring any Linux distribution. As well as the presence of many convenient and commercial programs that can also be installed pirated. M$ managed to sell sales of no more than 30% of the desktop OS market, the rest of the share belongs to pirated installations, which M$, as I showed above, itself promotes, especially since 2015, when it actually allowed mass illegal (legally) activation on its servers and did nothing about it for 9 years. This clearly speaks of the company's policy - to retain the market at any cost, especially business, allowing massive pirate activations among the population

Again you make a baseless assumption on nothing. Most people in the world are not installing their own pirated windows. Even prebuilt pcs, many come out of box with pirated windows. To quote:

"A 2018 study reported that at least 91 per cent of PC users in India are using a pirated copy of Windows. In fact, even when one buys a new PC or a laptop with preinstalled Windows, 80-85 per cent of the time, the user gets a pirated copy of the operating system. "

Also a side note that some of the windows % are likely linux as well. As most of the source of users is useragents, changing the useragent to windows to be harder to identify for privacy reasons is fairly common (of course to be clear I am not saying this is a major amount of people, but it is there)

QuoteIf Linux distributions were so popular and easy to install/configure and were full of opportunities to install valuable pirated commercial software, everyone would have forgotten about Windows 15 years ago. But in reality, why are hardware manufacturers in no hurry to write proprietary drivers, much less open source code for the most modern hardware? Only under Windows and that solves everything. If you want modern hardware with full-featured drivers, install Windows. I constantly read forums and reviews of people buying equipment. And no one except specific developers installs Linux distributions if the laptop comes without an OS. And in my country, for example, laptops without OS account for more than 70% of the market. And still everyone installs Windows. Nobody needs free Linux, because Windows, in fact, for home, is also completely free. And the reliability and comfort in it are an order of magnitude higher for the average person.

So your Linux whining is belied by the ruthless reality in which Windows crushes Linux distributions, even when the laptop does not have an OS.

And it is for this same reason that Android easily defeated Windows Phone on smartphones - it was the first and did not depend on the previously accumulated code base. It simply wasn't available for smartphones. But Linux has no chance in the desktop OS market, unless M$ itself destroys Windows.

Drivers in general has been fairly streamlined for much hardware. Which is why compared to old days, in modern days most hardware works out of box. This is partly due to Microsoft requiring drivers to be more generic so they could trim off the fat. As often times even with windows, you had half the hardware not work out of box unless you manually installed the drivers, which was terrible since most common thing not to work was the wifi driver. Even worse when they got rid of LAN on computers, forcing you to use either an adapter or have another pc and transfer it via usb drive

Thus, even for linux these days 90% of the time it is plug and play.

More and more software is going into the cloud, and with the Windows 11 requirements of TPM, pirates are going to have a blast with harder to break DRM

Continuing the topic I started a long time ago of intentional damage to the vision of Chrome/Edge and FF(without editing the config) users. About incorrect grayscale anti-aliasing in all modern browsers, which I have documented:
www.notebookchat.com/index.php?topic=191611.45#msg584618

QuoteComputers that have older OS's don't "just stop working" because there are newer versions available

No, they do not but at one point they become so slow, one has no choice but to purchase a new system. Software ages too, slowly but surely becoming incompatible with the latest standards and file formats and so on. It's not necessarily about planned obsolescence. (I do agree that Big Tech companies want us to buy new phones/tablets/computers every year.)
[/quote]

LOL!! "They become slow" - not on their own.

While with many OS's "updates" involve enlarging the kernel (less user usable RAM) and without off system storage of data storage & file systems get filled up leaving less swap space to work with however computers and the software that run's on them don't "age".

*IF* however you follow the lemming/sheep requirement of having the "latest and greatest" at all times then newer versions almost always use more system resources to to pretty much the same things and often introduce default file formats that are incompatible with prior versions.

BTW: all that is needed to exchange email these days is ether a smart phone or a computer with a modern web browser.

Disclaimer: I recently spent a decade at a modern company that utilized +20yo file formats to exchange data with some of their vendors. (and YES +20yo applications are still in use in 2024!!)

Quote from: George on April 10, 2024, 19:25:25BTW: all that is needed to exchange email these days is ether a smart phone or a computer with a modern web browser.

Not at all, if you are polling dozens of mailboxes with a bunch of rules, you will go crazy trying to poll everything in a web browser.
Oultook Express from Windows XP remains the best program for receiving such complex mail. But unfortunately, He no longer exists and he has problems with databases larger than 1GB per file.

Today there are no good email programs for Windows, especially with the ability to import complete Outlook Express databases with full complex rules for sorting them.

Quote from: mmk on February 15, 2024, 16:32:09The average person just wants to check email and watch videos on youtube. Why do they need to spend 1200 on a x86 windows machine, when for half the price you can get android/iOS that does the same thing, except with double the battery life, way lighter and no noise/heat? Not to mention far less chance getting virus or crashing.

As many of the OEM's are realizing that for MOST people, their 'smart phone' and/or complimented with an Android or iOS tablet is ALL they need for personal use.

While most modern 'professional' software is designed and compiled to run on Windows (and usually the most recent version of it) the Linux distro's are slowly making inroads/progress with 'casual' applications and uses for computer hardware.

Even in 2024 there are LARGE 'islands' of 'embedded' XP and other OS use. I've named them 'islands' as companies and org's have the systems in use without any WAN or LAN connection what-so-ever. Years ago I worked at a OEM where our 'pick&place' machines used OS2. (there are many industrial/commercial machines that still use XP)

The CAD/CAM software on my old XP desktop still works just as good today as it did when I installed it >10yrs ago. Granted in today's world I'll need to swap to using one of my more 'modern' boxes to transfer the files created on the XP box from my LAN NAS to a hardware vendor via the internet.

Are there newer versions of the application available? Sure. Can the newer versions do more than what I have? Absolutely. Do I have any ACTUAL NEED or desire to drop a few killobucks on features I have no use for? No.

'Other stuff' will always exist that have different feature sets. 'different' is not automatically 'better' just is different.

BTW: I've used Open Office for seemingly Decades. Copies for WIN and MAC sit on my NAS. It works for what *I* need it for.